[tikka308]

I've read a lot of varied opinions about BobCAD and, per the recommendation of many threads, downloaded & tried both. I've used them for about a week now and to be honest, don't feel as though I have enough of an opinion to decide.

However, BobCAD seems to have better learning venues for new folks (like myself). Do you guys agree?

My hesitation with BobCAD is that lots of people seem to view it as a more "amateur" software compared with Rhino (and other CAD programs) - but for a hobbiest, how would I know the difference? Frankly, many of the things in Bobcad feel much easier to do (partly because I've already been able to view demo videos).

Any comments? (please ignore the fact that Bobcad also has CAM and Rhino does not - i really just want to focus on CAD)...

In all the complaining I've read about Bobcad, I haven't been able to pinpoint any true "problems" or things it cannot do.

I would love to hear someone say "The problem with Bobcad is that you can't do [insert capability here] whereas you can in Rhino" and hence it will be a mistake to purchase Bobcad"

Thanks!

[tobyaxis]

Ok, the #1 thing in a decision on any CAD is what do you want to make with it.

Second, does that software have those capabilities that you need?

Three, how does it feel to you?

This question comes up at least 4 or 5 times a month so you understand why I have not answered your question.

As a note BCC is not just a Hobby Software. There are many Machine Shops across the World using it for Modeling and CNC Programming.

To me Rhino is a very good software too but not for Machining IMPO. I feel it is more for Art and Creative Design that is difficult in most respects to BobCAD.

Welcome to CNC Zone

[tikka308]

Thanks, Toby. I'm aware that this is a frequently debated topic and the advice that you give is much appreciated - and consistent with other threads.

I do wish someone would give a more "firm" opinion. I've downloaded the demo's, tried a few out, read the threads on CNCZone. As a true beginner, I don't trust my own judgement on the two criteria you mention (feel & capabilities). An analogy would be an everyday person being put into a racecar and, afterwards, being asked how the balance & suspension felt.

I do know what I want to make - and they are, I believe, common amongst fellow hobby beginners: things like a 1" spindle wrench, my own t-nuts, a motor bracket mount, an engraving on a picture frame, etc...

I read the prior posts where people "challenged" others about whether or not Bobcad is used in professional shops. I'm not really worried about that; I want a program that is designed for people who don't have engineering degrees - and BobCAD seems to be the only one.

Thank you very much for your comment re: Rhino. From my research, I see that it does focus on more advanced curve funtions (i.e. for boats). Very practical comment.

[tobyaxis]

Your welcome.

I will try to keep this thread on top so that others may chime in with their suggestions and comments.

Ultimately the real deal is testing and pushing limits of the software. You will find that all software has Pros and Cons.

I have been praying that the Software Fairy would come in a Make the Perfect one but that isn't realistic.

Good Luck and I hope you get some positive suggestions and comments.

Cheers!!!!!

[tjones]

You may wish to try other CAD software to see as well. Bobcad/CAM is designed for those who are machining as well as designing. I feel it is more focused though on the CAM side now than the CAD.

Designing:

For myself I do most of my designing in Alibre and my machining is done in Bobcad. Bobcad solid modeling is not parametric and making changes to solids are not so easy to do. Also the 2D drafting is rather easy to learn but it not parametrically linked to the solid. So for easy of use it is very good in 2D and 3D design but for long term I would not rate it nearly as high for functionality.

The reason I use Alibre is simple. You can test it out for free using their Xpress version. However if you want CAM I would still stick with Bobcad. as well as using the free Alibre software for design. Alibre XPress is a parametric modeler where you have a design tree containing the history of everything you do. This way you can go back up the tree and modify anything very easily. Rhino is better for free flowing surface design and is quite useful if that is what you need. However for the cost you may wish to decide what you want to do with the software.

Check out Alibre: http://www.alibre.com/products/default.asp

CAM:
Rhino does have Rhino CAM: It is an add-on and can be quite expensive. If you wish to go this route you will have a much larger learning curve and probably more capabilities. However the cost is going to be much more as well. Bobcad is very good for up to 3 axis 2 or 3D machining. There are some 4 axis in version prior to 2007 but I would not recommend that for beginners. 4 axis machining is not ready on the newest version 2007 Bobcad.

Alibre while it has an expert version that includes CAM it is also an add-on. It is really Visual mill with limitations on functions. The CAM works well but may not have all the features many large shops would want. However they may be perfectly suited for smaller companies. But again it is only included in the Expert version. Bobcad has much more capabilities than the CAM has there.

Summary:

Bobcad: Nice light-heavy duty in 2-3 axis machining with light to medium CAD capabilities. Non-parametric design limitation. 4 th axis limited use in CAM Great pricing. Easy to learn.

Rhino: Modeling designed around surfacing and more difficult to use. CAM is extra add-on. Pricing reasonable to high for capabilities. More difficult to use.

Alibre: Parametric design with free XPress version. Solids and 2D are parametrically linked and both can be exported to CAM software. Expert version of CAM is limited with no 4 th axis and more difficult to use. Can't beat free on Xpress but Xpress limits some advanced 3D modeling. Easy to Learn.

Recommendations:

Use Bobcad for machining and light 2D design work. Use Alibre Express for solid modeling and parametric 2D design. Use Rhino for complex surfaces requiring more art like abilities.

[turmite]

I would like to dispel a couple of myths here. First of all, Rhino is not just for artsy stuff. It can and is used a lot for 2d drafting design and machining. Second, as tikka already knows, Madcam is also a cam plugin for Rhino and there are a couple of others as well.

Tikka after speaking with you on the ph, and knowing where you are in your decision making, I would like to offer you some advice. Knowing what I know now from the experience I have gathered over the years, if I were in your shoes, I would postpone any purchase of a large $$ system for the following reasons.

1. You are just starting out, and though your reasoning to me was to learn on what you would be using is a good one, it is not however necessary to take the whole apple in one bite!

2. There are free packages out there that are plenty good enough to get your feet wet and to learn the basics. The basics are just that basic an are going to be close the the same across most cad and cam packages.

3. There are many low cost packages out there that will get you going as well, and though I would like to sell you software, I also don't want to sell you something you don't really need at the moment.

There are two different free cam packages that are being developed here on the zone. Cambam is one and I cannot remember the other but from reviews I have read it is pretty good stuff. There are probably 2 dozen free cad packages out there that would do what you needed.

Take your time and use some of that stuff to get started and then sample the higher $$ goodies when you have the time to spend with a little experince under the belt.

Mike

[tjones]

Sorry if it sounded like I was implying the only use of Rhino was for art. I stated for surfacing. Artwork typically has more difficult surfacing than most companies deal with. However there are true surfacing in large companies incuding automotive that would do much better on the Rhino software.

Rhino allows for the complex curved surfaces much better than many solid model programs do. Automotive design is artwork after all.

[tikka308]

Tjones & Turmite -

Thank you VERY much both for posting your thoughts.

Turmite - Thanks for speaking with me on the phone this weekend. I already own SheetCAM (relatively inexpensive 2.5 axis CAM) and think I'll use Alibre or another free CAD to start. I appreciate your honestly and agree with you that it's not in my best interest to take everything in one bite!

Tjones - Thank you for your summary! I think that was one of the best explanations of the different strengths & weaknesses. I appreciate the write up.

[pointcloud]

Rhino is NOT more difficult to USE than BOBCANT or Alibra...

None are perfect for everybody, but some are darned close when used for the job it was intended for...

Compare Gallerys: http://www.rhino3d.com/ to http://www.alibre.com/products/default.asp


Each to his own...

[tjones]

Rhino is NOT more difficult to USE than BOBCANT or Alibra...

Each to his own...

I would say it has more to do with what you wish to create. A basic solid cylinder or torus would be easiest in Bobcad. A basic model with some holes and few sweeps in Alibre. A complex surface with many cross sections then Rhino.

They all have some strengths but look at the level of user. Consider if the person knew nothing at all about CAD. (this person may know a great deal but for comparison sake) Then consider what they intend to use it for and how long would it take them to accomplish it. How many step, mouse clicks or pages of the manual?

I based my observations on training of new users and input from those who had training in other programs. But you may be very correct when it comes to knowledgeable users. Once learned most programs seem quite easy. That is why anyone should look at the final outcome you wish to achieve and how many steps it would take to get there.

[tjones]

A little off the subject but would you know if Rhino has started giving away any free version yet? You know like other cad software does with limited and/or older releases. I would like to get my hands on one if they ever do.

Have done some work on others before but never owned my own copy.

[pointcloud]

Free? I am not sure if they have or not? Never heard of it any way. They do offer a student version cheaper.

I disagree! If I want a cylinder in rhino, I can do it 3 ways.. Type cylinder, select from a drop down menu or use on the default menu cylinder function button?

tobyaxis and I were talkn about solidworks and I was saying to him that the menus are much the same, sweep in rhino can be simple. A tourus just as easy but in rhino v4 you are able to have a veriable diameter, with ease. Fillets, and champhers can also be veriable.

The biggest problem for me when I was a new user was not how to do a function, but what the function was CALLED. My vocabulary held me back most and still does..

Like I used to use menus or buttons, now I just type in most functions.

I see that rhino can be intimadating, but really don't let that old you back.

Ok thats enough, but since this I have found another way to make a cylinder it is a mesh... so it's 4 ways.. I think placing it is more difficult because you can x,y,z, or tangent, or 2points, or 3points, or around a curve, or click.

You guys should really have a look at the command list for rhino....

[tjones]

Sounds like some good stuff.

It would do good for me to catch up on the newer versions in particular. The more flexible a program the more difficult it usually is. Mostly because it takes longer to find what you want. Other than that is the number of variables you have to deal with. The more there are the harder it is to get started.

Mostly Bobcad is dumb solids and not capable of editing. However those dumb solids with booleans can create some complex part. Then they have skins and surfacing. All of these are pretty flexible but for many very intimidating. However in Rhino it seems most people purchase it for the more difficult work. I would have to say it sounds like they have some good basic solids in addition though.

I hate trials and demos but it might be time to do some more playing if I can't get an old copy cheap. Does the user agreement allow the transfer of license?

[pointcloud]

Other than that is the number of variables you have to deal with. The more there are the harder it is to get started.

Mostly Bobcad is dumb solids and not capable of editing.

However in Rhino it seems most people purchase it for the more difficult work.

I would have to say it sounds like they have some good basic solids in addition though.

I hate trials and demos but it might be time to do some more playing if I can't get an old copy cheap. Does the user agreement allow the transfer of license?

I know sometime veriables become difficult BUT the way these are instilled into the program it's like a child can do it. If you fillet it will ask the usual where, the a radius, and laslty it will show a handle ( white line on the surface that is being fillted) you can coord the handle or choose via mouse...

Most that do not buy rhino think it is to complex or they aren't up to the curve, and sometimes have been told a lie as to the capabilites.

Yes.. It has the basic things... I have bcc v21 and there are lots of things equal for solids, but you know bcc 21 has limits..

User agreements??? I know you can have a bunch of copies on different computer YOU own but can NOT run simultainously, unless you have the zoo.. Get the student copy, don't your children need to learn? I know mine are useing it for there art class this year and next year my son will be in beginner shop (brand new school 1400 chidren, and one hell of a shop)..

I went to the art department and they have SUPER equipment for pottery...

[tikka308]

Here's a link to the Rhino Command List

http://en.wiki.mcneel.com/default.as...mmandList.html

[pointcloud]

tikka308????? What do you think of that list? do you understand some of those commands and how you might exacute them?

[tikka308]

Pointcloud - It's tough to say. Sure, as I browse through, many of them seem logical. It certainly would be helpful to keep this list handy as I learn & experiment. Too bad they don't have a tiered-list - i.e. divided into categories based on difficulty or type.

I think one thing that is working against Rhino (at least with respect to my evaluation) is the lack of video tutorials. The RhinoTV have no sound. I've heard a fellow named Robert Schutz had great videos but haven't come across them yet. Bobcad, on the other hand, had some helpful video's ready do download off their website that cover practical lessons - in addition to teh ones Sorin provided on cadcamtrainer.com

tikka308????? What do you think of that list? do you understand some of those commands and how you might exacute them?

[pointcloud]

Do a search here and see what comes up? I am sure there are plenty of vids, and I had some with sound on artc...
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forum...forum_id=12371
http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdis...ysprune=&f=174
http://www.rhino3d.tv/english/info/accessdenied.php
http://www.rhino3d.com/tutorials.htm
Also youtube ahs some but, a list in relation to difficulty might be really hard to determine? They are in the help menu stacked with many options, like the cylinder all 4 options are listed together... I learned just by looking in the commands list on help, meshes are great but more for sculpting.

Rhino will need a plug-in to machine with... I use Rhinocam full.. I know there are many plug-in and some even free I am sure.

[turmite]

Hey Tikka.....as I told you on the phone there are many reasons for buying one software over another............honest is one of them!

tjones Rhino has a free download that is unrestricted in everything except the saves. It is something like 20-30 saves. If you haven't used Rhino in a while you owe it to yourself to try it, or again, which ever fits!

I use Rhino in the creation of rifle stocks and pistol grips that have both surfaces on the outside and pockets, screw holes, slots, bosses and about everything else you can imagine on the inside. It is all done in Rhino.

PC.......my largest hurdle in learning Rhino was figuring out which command to use............there are sooooooo many, and honestly I think that intimidates some. I know it did me.

Mike

[tjones]

Thanks for the info,

I will give it some more testing again. I will do most all the testing without ever saving so I can get the most use without running out of the demo.

It has been quite some time.Like I said before. For the beginner it counts on how much you have to learn or look through to find what you want to do. Once familier with software it is usually much easier. As for Alibre it is very simple but still many more features than Bobcad.

However you just can't beat free. The Alibre Xpress has no time or save limitations so you can learn a lot without paying a dime.