[ralph@nes]

First, thanks to Carlos Rey (Serviceman on here, Reytech is his company) for walking me through as much of this as he has!

Recap: I have a 1994 Haas VF-2 mill which we purchased an HRT-210 rotary table for. I haven't been able to get any successful use of it since it's been here.

On my first attempt at connecting the unit, I got A Z CH MISSING, A MOTOR Z FAULT, and other errors indicating that there was a problem either in the cable or the encoder.

I sent the motor to Oracle Encoder, where Mark found a scratched encoder disc :cheers: and replaced it with what he says was an equivalent but not OEM style encoder. Reinstalled the motor in the HRT, tried again, still not working. Sent it back to Oracle where they went over it and swear up and down all is kosher. These guys have done a few motors for us and we've no reason to doubt them.

With cable test on I get 'A CABLE FAULT', so I purchased a brand-new cable from Haas (NYMAT). No dice. With cable test on I'm still getting the A CABLE FAULT and the same old encoder/cable errors as before, specifically A MOTOR Z FAULT. At least A Z CH MISSING is gone. :bs:

When the motor is advanced in one direction, very slowly, it will move smoothly and not error out. If moved in the other direction or quickly at all, it jumps and hops and does all kinds of crazy stuff until it simply throws the A MOTOR Z FAULT again. (nuts)

I've shelled out for the cable and encoder repair and now I'm no farther ahead than I was. What the heck can possibly be left? My boss is about ready to come unglued if I spend another nickel fixing this thing (chair)

Help?

[Al_The_Man]

If it is specifically referring to the marker (Z) channel on the A axis, If you can monitor these signals as close as possible to the control input, you should see a high (5v) on one, usually the Z and 0v on the other /Z.
This state will remain like this for almost one complete revolution, if you can turn the motor very slowly by hand while measuring the voltage they should both switch state for a very short period, once per revolution, but it it is VERY short pulse.
But if it is detecting this error in a fraction of a turn then it sound like they are either both high or both low?
If the voltage level checks OK, it may be the control input IC.
Al.

[wms]

Ralph,

Might sound like a dumb question..and maybe you have tried this..but have you tried swapping the A axis drive for one of the others to see if the error follows the drive..

This is about the first thing I normally do..to rule out the drive being the problem...

Just a thought..as I'm sure you have already done this..

[HAILINHAAS]

Couple of things. Is this a brand new rotary?

Check parameters first

Parameter 315 bit 15 needs to be 1
and Setting 30 needs to match the model of rotary you have.

[HAILINHAAS]

You will want to select HRT-210B if it is a brushless rotary for Setting 30

[gar]

071010-1939 EST USA

HAILINHAAS:

Is not a 1994 machine a brush type, and if you are using the internal machine drivers, then it necessary to have a brush type rotary? Thus, my guess he has a brush type motor on the rotary or the motor would not run.

Exactly when was the change to brushless DC motors?

.

[ralph@nes]

Ralph,

Might sound like a dumb question..and maybe you have tried this..but have you tried swapping the A axis drive for one of the others to see if the error follows the drive..

This is about the first thing I normally do..to rule out the drive being the problem...

Just a thought..as I'm sure you have already done this..

No, I haven't done that because I was kind of worried about perhaps breaking something else! Is that safe to do?

In response to other questions:

It's a used table, and I'm assuming my 1994 isn't a brushless machine. Also the motor/encoder seem to be the standard brush type.

I don't even have an 'HRT210B' setting. Just HRT210.

And Al The Man, I'm going to go check that right now.

[ralph@nes]

Couple of things. Is this a brand new rotary?

Check parameters first

Parameter 315 bit 15 needs to be 1
and Setting 30 needs to match the model of rotary you have.

Umm... My parameters end at 226

[ralph@nes]

Also:

In order to get A to zero or home, I need to turn the parameter Z CH ONLY on, which I believe makes it not look for a home switch. Otherwise the motor just gives a quick spin and either a Following Error or a A MOTOR Z FAULT again.

Once 'homed' by turning Z CH ONLY on, is when I'm able to move the axis with the jog buttons and get any movement or progress at all.

Also, the suggested parameter settings of INV ENC and INV MOTOR are both '1' and the axis will only respond with anything other than following error if they are set 1,0 or 0,1. Not if both are 1.

Also attaching the parameters suggested to me.

A couple of the parameters listed like REV PHASING and BRUSH MOTOR are simply UNDEFINED on my machine.

[NC Cams]

Very basic comment as I learned this while shoping for at Haas for use/adaptation on a different machine - sadly they won't.

Haas was making their HRT's with brush (B) type DC motors. These used a conventional H bridge motor drive. They are making running changes to convert their HRT's from B to brushless drives - unless some fancy stuff is done, they are NOT plug and play interchangeable.

Keep in mind that Haas also does a lot of soft coding of options in their controllers. If you don't pay for the option, it won't get turned on no matter if you plug in the option correctly or not.

Again, basic stuff but there might be a pearl of wisdom there for the taking.

[ralph@nes]

This is a brush motor.

This machine was sold to us as 4th axis capable. I've got the axis moving, just not doing what it's supposed.

[Rocko1]

Call an actual Haas tech out. That is my best and final piece of advice!

[Al_The_Man]

What I like to do in a case like this is to identify the analogue input to the drive, if this is easily done, then the drive/motor/tach can be tested by using a +-battery box made from two 9v batteries and a 10k pot.
Disconnect the analogue input and connect the battery box. you should be able to run the motor back and forth smoothly.
If you are able to do this then, the problem is in the control/feedback or parameters.

For the battery box, both the 9v are connected in series and the junction point is used as the common, the outer ends of the batteries are each connected to the outer ends of the pot. the two leads you use are the common and the slider of the pot to give you +-9vdc.
Al.

[wms]

No, I haven't done that because I was kind of worried about perhaps breaking something else! Is that safe to do?

"SNIP"

It's a used table, and I'm assuming my 1994 isn't a brushless machine.

"SNIP"

Yes it is a safe..If you feel comfortable with doing it..as far as removing and replacing the plugs/wires/connectors and such..if no don't do it..

A 1994 Machine will be a "brushed" machine for sure..

[gar]

071011-1831 EST USA

ralph@nes:

Along the line that Al suggested I would get a 12 to 20 VDC source with current limiting of about 1 A. Apply this current limited source to the armature with one polarity, and then the other. This is low enough power to protect the motor under stall conditions and you can see if there smooth and approximately equal speed in both directions. If not there may be a mechanical problem.

How can you approximate a constant current source? Put a series resistor in line with the load. For 1 A locked rotor current at 20 V the value of R is 20 ohms at 20 W. Same resistor and 20 V source and at 10 V across the motor armature this will be 1/2 amp. (10 V and 20 ohms).

On our 5C unit light axial force will stall the motor.

You must get all of the many parameters correct for the unit to work.

The DC brush type indexers will work on the machines with DC brush type servos. They also work on brushless machines with an adapter from the brushless driver. There is no backwards compatibility of brushless indexers to brush type machines.

If you run the above test make sure you never apply any voltage to the encoder leads when you have the higher voltage (12 V or above) around the cable.

.

[SORCHEROR]

are the other motors are the machine brush type motors?i have a 92 machine and its brushless,just wondering,another thought,have you checked the motor for worn brushes or brush dust,would cause a jumpy erratic motor due to shorting

[gar]

071011-2135 EST USA

SORCHEROR:

HAAS did not supply machines with brushless motors until some time after 1993 and before 1996. Without an adapter you can not run the brush motor on a brushless drive.

HAAS had a bad design in my opinion on the brush type drives because if carbon produced a shunt to ground resistance below about 1 megohm it was likely to fail a drive.

In the HAAS you either have all brush type drives or all brushless because the DC power supply is different. The brushless use the same power supply as the spindle motor.

A brush type motor will not run if directly connected to a brushless drive. Furthermore the cabling has to be different.

.

[SORCHEROR]

oh,mines not a hass

[ralph@nes]

Thanks for the input guys! I'll try that motor test and see what happens... Will post results later.

[ralph@nes]

Incidentally, checked all the brushes and they look almost new. Cleaned them just for the sake of cleaning, but I don't feel there are any errors there. Will get into motor tests today hopefully.