[persita]

Hi, I am a teacher in high school in Italy. In order to expand our lab I am planning to propose to my department of mechanics to buy some CN machine for education. We already have 2 CN "heavy" machines: a lathe and a mill but I found that for students those are not so easy to deal with. I mean, of course those are fantastic because students can actually put their hands on a machine that they will find at work but I am looking for something when they can focus on programming first.

I was looking on the internet for a while and I came up with a list of machines that would be interesting for me:

1- https://store.bantamtools.com/collec...p-cnc-machines (mill)
2- https://leviltechnology.com/edu-mill/ (mill + 3D printing of metal)
3- https://leviltechnology.com/lmv-400/ (mill)
4- https://leviltechnology.com/ltc-30-2/ (lathe)
5- https://www.heller.biz/en/machines-a...-profitrainer/ (5 axis mill, very interesting but I guess very pricey, I asked for a quote still waiting for reply)
6- http://www.yornew.com/en/xk200.asp (chinese mill, about 5000€)
7- http://www.yornew.com/en/ck140.asp (chinese lathe, about 5000€)

I would like to ask you, since you are in the field, if you could give me some advice (let's say on one lathe and one mille, don't know the number we can buy) and also if you have other machines to propose.

Thanks

[metalmayhem]

have you considered tormach . They are probably the best bang for the buck and they'll be able to handle a fair bit of abuse that can be associated with students who are learning . At the same time they can produce parts that you and your students will be satisfied with

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
the first one you listed (Bantam Tools) looked to have round rails which are not stiff enough.

The next group (Levil Tools) all have linear guides and servos. I like the look of them.

As you say the Heeler example is probably pricey but otherwise looks the part.

I have little faith in the Chinese examples. Did you note they are using an ARM processor, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does mean that its a proprietary
controller and Chinese made to boot. If it plays up you are screwed. I would be reluctant to spend valuable school resources on a solution that could potentially be 'an orphan'
should it ever fail.

You'd ideally have something with a Fanuc or Seimen control......those being the most heavily represented controllers in industry....and exactly what your students need to see and
become familiar with. Even a controller based on a PC running Mach or UCCNC would be preferable to an orphan.

As metalmayhem has suggested Tormach use PathPilot which is a version of LinuxCNC. This would also be a useful control for your students to be exposed to.

Craig

[persita]

have you considered tormach . They are probably the best bang for the buck and they'll be able to handle a fair bit of abuse that can be associated with students who are learning . At the same time they can produce parts that you and your students will be satisfied with

Hi,
the first one you listed (Bantam Tools) looked to have round rails which are not stiff enough.

The next group (Levil Tools) all have linear guides and servos. I like the look of them.

As you say the Heeler example is probably pricey but otherwise looks the part.

I have little faith in the Chinese examples. Did you note they are using an ARM processor, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does mean that its a proprietary
controller and Chinese made to boot. If it plays up you are screwed. I would be reluctant to spend valuable school resources on a solution that could potentially be 'an orphan'
should it ever fail.

You'd ideally have something with a Fanuc or Seimen control......those being the most heavily represented controllers in industry....and exactly what your students need to see and
become familiar with. Even a controller based on a PC running Mach or UCCNC would be preferable to an orphan.

As metalmayhem has suggested Tormach use PathPilot which is a version of LinuxCNC. This would also be a useful control for your students to be exposed to.

Craig

Thanks a lot for the replies guys. Listening to your advice I dropped the Chinese option and I am considering Tormach. In particular, the smaller mill (https://tormach.com/machines/routers/xstech-router.html) seems a little toy but I think it's good for a CAD/CAM and rapid prototyping lab. We would put it next to a 3D printer.

I am still in doubt between the Tormach and the Bantam tools option, just because the latter has the opportunity to use also the 4th axis. Not bad as solution. Do you think it's not stiff enough even for working with soft materials? I am sorry if those are silly questions but I don't know what to look in a CNC machine to define it as "good".

Unfortunately, for the lathes the situation is different because I have contacted Levil tools but they have not replied yet. But, honestly, for the lathe it0s not a big problem since we already have a "heavy" 2-axis lathe machine with 12 tools and a Fanuc18i-t controller. The school has bought it used from a small factory. It's maybe too big for educational purposes expecially for the beginning but it's ok.

Lastly, the 5-axis Heller mill, as expected too expensive for us, 20k, which it's not so much but out of our budget for a single machine.

[metalmayhem]

I'd suggest the pcnc440 from tormach above their router . It costs more but you'd get so much more from it . I look at that router as being above the chinese cnc's that a guy can find on ebay but not far above . The only youtube videos for those routers are from tormach and I doubt they've sold many , though I could be wrong .

I have 4 of the 440's and they are great little machines and very capable for their size . They take up very little space and are easy enough to move around if needed . I've been running them hard for a few years now and they just keep running . The key is not to go nuts on all the bells and whistles which really hike the price .
They have nice looking lathes the price might be a bit high depending on a budget

the bantam is another one I don't see as a good buy . I've looked at their videos in the past and I just see it as good marketing . Price-wise they are expensive for what a guy gets and I'm sure there isn't much under all that plastic . The spindle motor looks like an rc motor , and the round slides aren't a great choice . If your looking at doing wood and plastic then it would probably be sufficient but I can't see it doing well with aluminum over the long haul

Another possible option might be sieg if you can find a dealer https://www.siegind.com/cnc.html . Also syil

btw , haas sells a little router type mill for schools and they likely give discounts for educators , if i recall they weren't too extreme in price .

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
the age old question about what makes one machine good and one poor is such a broad field. I would say the hardest quality
to achieve in any machine, but especially a machine to a budget, is stiffness. Even a poor control and poorer stepper motors are still likely to be
better than a machine that flexes under cutting loads, and a machine that flexes under load is no good for any purpose including education.

Therefore I would choose the machine that has ground ways OR rectangular linear guides over any machine with round rails.

The second criterion would be a controller that gives student familiarity with controls that they are going to encounter in the workplace. I think the Tormach
(Path Pilot control) has a decided advantage there. Additionally Tormach has had a significant market presence over a number of years, and the prospect
of manufacturer support when required is good.

I can understand that a fourth axis may be appealing but.....
1) A rotary fourth axis must fit underneath the spindle and therefore markedly reduces the Z axis travel....do you have enough Z axis travel??
2) A fourth axis requires Gcode....do you have access to CAM software that does continuous fourth axis? I promise you that if you have to buy software it will make you weep with its cost.

If your intention is to familiarize students with CNC machines a well sorted three axis machine with a good, if not industry standard, at least industry standard feel-alike, controller
will equip your students well.

Craig

[persita]

I'd suggest the pcnc440 from tormach above their router . It costs more but you'd get so much more from it . I look at that router as being above the chinese cnc's that a guy can find on ebay but not far above . The only youtube videos for those routers are from tormach and I doubt they've sold many , though I could be wrong .

I have 4 of the 440's and they are great little machines and very capable for their size . They take up very little space and are easy enough to move around if needed . I've been running them hard for a few years now and they just keep running . The key is not to go nuts on all the bells and whistles which really hike the price .
They have nice looking lathes the price might be a bit high depending on a budget

the bantam is another one I don't see as a good buy . I've looked at their videos in the past and I just see it as good marketing . Price-wise they are expensive for what a guy gets and I'm sure there isn't much under all that plastic . The spindle motor looks like an rc motor , and the round slides aren't a great choice . If your looking at doing wood and plastic then it would probably be sufficient but I can't see it doing well with aluminum over the long haul

Another possible option might be sieg if you can find a dealer https://www.siegind.com/cnc.html . Also syil

btw , haas sells a little router type mill for schools and they likely give discounts for educators , if i recall they weren't too extreme in price .

Thanks. Taking into account your considerations I am now considering the Haas desktop mill option, which has distributor even here in northern Italy. I already contacted them. Yes, their desktop mill is a bit pricey but it seems to have everything we are looking for. Also, it has the same controller of other big machines which I consider a plus.

The machine is this one: https://www.haascnc.com/content/haascnc/it/build-and-price/choose-options.DESKTOP%20MILL.html

In conclusion, I will propose, for the lab, the Tormach router and the Haas but I will push for the Haas. If there we have more budget the Tormach cnc 440 is also a good option. Those found are constrained by certain rules like: digitalization, connection to the internet, industry4.0, making etc.. I think all the machines we are talking are capable of that.

[persita]

Hi,
the age old question about what makes one machine good and one poor is such a broad field. I would say the hardest quality
to achieve in any machine, but especially a machine to a budget, is stiffness. Even a poor control and poorer stepper motors are still likely to be
better than a machine that flexes under cutting loads, and a machine that flexes under load is no good for any purpose including education.

Therefore I would choose the machine that has ground ways OR rectangular linear guides over any machine with round rails.

The second criterion would be a controller that gives student familiarity with controls that they are going to encounter in the workplace. I think the Tormach
(Path Pilot control) has a decided advantage there. Additionally Tormach has had a significant market presence over a number of years, and the prospect
of manufacturer support when required is good.

I can understand that a fourth axis may be appealing but.....
1) A rotary fourth axis must fit underneath the spindle and therefore markedly reduces the Z axis travel....do you have enough Z axis travel??
2) A fourth axis requires Gcode....do you have access to CAM software that does continuous fourth axis? I promise you that if you have to buy software it will make you weep with its cost.

If your intention is to familiarize students with CNC machines a well sorted three axis machine with a good, if not industry standard, at least industry standard feel-alike, controller
will equip your students well.

Craig

Thanks for the reply. I thought about the 4th axis and I guess you are right. Maybe I was flying too high. That’s because in high school we rarely get students who are brilliant enough and, more important, with the will to apply and learn. I see it’s already difficult to make them understand the basics of cnc programming.

Regarding the software, we usually use Cimco Edit and we have license of cnc guide. Also, Autodesk give us educational license of their software so I am using also Fusion 360

[metalmayhem]

the haas has the round slides and is a bit of a glorified router , so your cutting will be limited . The good thing with it is the industrial control and you'll have better support than the other brands . The haas manuals are the best when it comes to explaining g code and giving sample executions of the code , so it has a big advantage for a learning center

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Also, Autodesk give us educational license of their software so I am using also Fusion 360

To my knowledge Fusion 360 does not have continuous fourth axis, that comes with Machining Extensions which I doubt are covered by an Educational License. They cost a regular Autodesk customers
$1600USD/year over an above the basic Fusion subscription of $545USD/year.

Craig