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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Novakon > UCCNC and rigid tapping
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  1. #1
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    UCCNC and rigid tapping

    I just realized that UCCNC is capable of rigid tapping, unlike Mach 3. I understand that LinuxCNC, PathPilot and Acorn can also do rigid tapping.

    My Torus (body of a NM-145 and the electronics of a Pulsar) is already capable of rigid tapping but it uses non-standard G-code to do it. It would be great to be able to use the G-code directly output from Fusion 360 without any manual hand coding.

    Apparently UCCNC requires feedback from a rotary encoder located on either the spindle or motor shafts to do rigid tapping.

    Has anyone successfully installed such a rotary encoder on their mill?

  2. #2
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I just realized that UCCNC is capable of rigid tapping, unlike Mach 3. I understand that LinuxCNC, PathPilot and Acorn can also do rigid tapping.

    My Torus (body of a NM-145 and the electronics of a Pulsar) is already capable of rigid tapping but it uses non-standard G-code to do it. It would be great to be able to use the G-code directly output from Fusion 360 without any manual hand coding.

    Apparently UCCNC requires feedback from a rotary encoder located on either the spindle or motor shafts to do rigid tapping.

    Has anyone successfully installed such a rotary encoder on their mill?
    That is the normal way any rigid tapping machine works the Encoder mounted to the spindle is a must, this will then synchronize the spindle and Z axis for rigid tapping, rigid tapping can be done with Mach3, not as easy to setup as Acorn Etc. Acorn being the easiest to setup for rigid tapping, of all the controls you mentioned.
    Mactec54

  3. #3
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Hello mactec54, thank you for offering help.

    My servo spindle has an existing rotary encoder that is mounted on the non-pulley side of the spindle. The rotary encoder outputs then go directly to the servo drive.

    The servo motor is labeled as a 110STM04030 with 1.2kW and 5.0 Amps, but I don’t see who made it. Not a lot of info on the Net, but I think it has a case size of 110 mm, 220 Volts, 3000 rpm, and 4.0 Nm.

    The encoder is labeled as Type ZZU4809-001G-2500BZ1-4P5L. Net searches imply that it is 2500 pulses P/R with two pairs of magnetic poles and works at 5 VDC.

    My understanding is that this rotary encoder has too many pulses per revolution for UCCNC to handle?

    Would it be better to add a separate lower resolution encoder to the spindle servo for UCCNC, or replace the existing encoder with one that can send info both to the servo drive and the UCCNC motion controller?

  4. #4
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Hello mactec54, thank you for offering help.

    My servo spindle has an existing rotary encoder that is mounted on the non-pulley side of the spindle. The rotary encoder outputs then go directly to the servo drive.

    The servo motor is labeled as a 110STM04030 with 1.2kW and 5.0 Amps, but I don’t see who made it. Not a lot of info on the Net, but I think it has a case size of 110 mm, 220 Volts, 3000 rpm, and 4.0 Nm.

    The encoder is labeled as Type ZZU4809-001G-2500BZ1-4P5L. Net searches imply that it is 2500 pulses P/R with two pairs of magnetic poles and works at 5 VDC.

    My understanding is that this rotary encoder has too many pulses per revolution for UCCNC to handle?

    Would it be better to add a separate lower resolution encoder to the spindle servo for UCCNC, or replace the existing encoder with one that can send info both to the servo drive and the UCCNC motion controller?
    Yes, you could add an Encoder just for the spindle feedback, the Servo Motor and Encoder is a closed loop with the Servo Drive, so you would not want to change this in any way, your Servo Drive may have an Encoder output which could be used if it has this, the resolution can normally be changed, adding an Encoder to suit is your best bet though.
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    The AC servo drive is a Maxsine EP1.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/09...24468377470355


    It looks like the drive does indeed have encoder outputs. I’ll have to dive in deeper to figure out how to configure them.

    Thanks again mactec.

  6. #6
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Good news is the Maxsine EP1 servo drive does have encoder outputs.

    Bad news is that there is no parameter that I can find to change the encoder resolution.

    Maybe a frequency divider would be of use in slowing down the encoder signals?

  7. #7
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Good news is the Maxsine EP1 servo drive does have encoder outputs.

    Bad news is that there is no parameter that I can find to change the encoder resolution.

    Maybe a frequency divider would be of use in slowing down the encoder signals?
    Just add an Encoder to the spindle this is the easiest way to do it then.
    Mactec54

  8. #8
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Just add an Encoder to the spindle this is the easiest way to do it then.
    I guess I’ve been avoiding this option because I’m not quite sure how to fit the encoder on the pulley side of the servo motor.
    I will tear into it later tonight to see what kind of space I have to work with.

  9. #9
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I guess I’ve been avoiding this option because I’m not quite sure how to fit the encoder on the pulley side of the servo motor.
    I will tear into it later tonight to see what kind of space I have to work with.
    You can add another timing pulley 1:1 is normal, no wider than 10mm or 3/8" wide belt, this is preferred on the spindle side not the motor side, this photo is a direct mount, can be an offset and belt drive also.
    Mactec54

  10. #10
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You can add another timing pulley 1:1 is normal, no wider than 10mm or 3/8" wide belt, this is preferred on the spindle side not the motor side, this photo is a direct mount, can be an offset and belt drive also.
    That is good news. Putting an encoder on the spindle side looks to be easier than putting it on the servo motor.

    I decided to take another look at using the encoder outputs on the Maxsine EP1 servo drive, despite those encoder outputs being too high of a resolution, after reading this post over at the UCCNC forum.

    However I have doubts that you really want to cut threads and make taps with 5000 RPM spindle speed, I mean even for a low diameter thread or tap it will be an extremely high surface speed. We mostly drill taps only with a few hundred RPMs spindle speed and you only need the encoder to count properly when you cutting the threads and making the taps, when you do other operations with the machine and running the spindle faster then it is not a problem if the encoder frequency is higher than what the device can handle, because for other operations the encoder is not required.
    forum.cncdrive.com • View topic - spindle encoder


    But when I took a closer look at the servo encoder outputs located on the X1 DB25 connector of the servo drive, I found this.

    Attachment 490494

    Attachment 490490

    Attachment 490492


    It wasn’t clear which inputs or outputs that Novakon was using on the X1 connector with their special adapter board. Maybe Novakon had already grabbed the encoder outputs and made my life simpler!?!

    So I rang out which which DB25 pins were connected to which RJ25 (6P6C phone jack). I found out that five of the six DB25 pins were connected as follows:

    14 Digital Input 1
    17 Digital Output 2
    19 Position Command Direction +
    20 Position Command Pulse +
    23 Encoder Signal /A

    But the sixth RJ25 phone jack wire was connected to multiple DB25 pins. This doesn’t make any sense to me having all these connectors together, especially the Digital Input Power Supply connected to the Encoder Signal Ground.

    1 Digital Input Power Supply (COM+)
    6 Position Command Direction -
    7 Position Command Pulse -
    10 Encoder Signal Ground
    18 Digital Output Common


    So the bottom line is that 1) Novakon did not provide access the encoder outputs for me, and 2) the DB25 adapter board makes it harder to access the encoder outputs, especially since I don’t understand why the adapter board is wired the way it is.

    All of the above is mainly for me to document what I found. Next step is to uncover the spindle pulley and see what it will take to mount something like a CUI Devices AMT102 encoder.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	A4A15591-4650-419A-86C7-7C3BD422BB57.jpeg 
Views:	0 
Size:	124.5 KB 
ID:	490496

    https://cdn.automationdirect.com/sta...0datasheet.pdf

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I just realized that UCCNC is capable of rigid tapping, unlike Mach 3. I understand that LinuxCNC, PathPilot and Acorn can also do rigid tapping.

    My Torus (body of a NM-145 and the electronics of a Pulsar) is already capable of rigid tapping but it uses non-standard G-code to do it. It would be great to be able to use the G-code directly output from Fusion 360 without any manual hand coding.

    Apparently UCCNC requires feedback from a rotary encoder located on either the spindle or motor shafts to do rigid tapping.

    Has anyone successfully installed such a rotary encoder on their mill?
    Not only a pulse encoder with a marker pulse, the rigid tapping option needs the OEM to have fitted the correct hardware and enabled the option.

    Rigid tapping was alway an option, today many machines include it as standard.

    Just fitting a spindle encoder may not be enough in your case.

  12. #12
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    That is good news. Putting an encoder on the spindle side looks to be easier than putting it on the servo motor.

    I decided to take another look at using the encoder outputs on the Maxsine EP1 servo drive, despite those encoder outputs being too high of a resolution, after reading this post over at the UCCNC forum.



    forum.cncdrive.com • View topic - spindle encoder


    But when I took a closer look at the servo encoder outputs located on the X1 DB25 connector of the servo drive, I found this.

    Attachment 490494

    Attachment 490490

    Attachment 490492


    It wasn’t clear which inputs or outputs that Novakon was using on the X1 connector with their special adapter board. Maybe Novakon had already grabbed the encoder outputs and made my life simpler!?!

    So I rang out which which DB25 pins were connected to which RJ25 (6P6C phone jack). I found out that five of the six DB25 pins were connected as follows:

    14 Digital Input 1
    17 Digital Output 2
    19 Position Command Direction +
    20 Position Command Pulse +
    23 Encoder Signal /A

    But the sixth RJ25 phone jack wire was connected to multiple DB25 pins. This doesn’t make any sense to me having all these connectors together, especially the Digital Input Power Supply connected to the Encoder Signal Ground.

    1 Digital Input Power Supply (COM+)
    6 Position Command Direction -
    7 Position Command Pulse -
    10 Encoder Signal Ground
    18 Digital Output Common


    So the bottom line is that 1) Novakon did not provide access the encoder outputs for me, and 2) the DB25 adapter board makes it harder to access the encoder outputs, especially since I don’t understand why the adapter board is wired the way it is.

    All of the above is mainly for me to document what I found. Next step is to uncover the spindle pulley and see what it will take to mount something like a CUI Devices AMT102 encoder.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	A4A15591-4650-419A-86C7-7C3BD422BB57.jpeg 
Views:	0 
Size:	124.5 KB 
ID:	490496

    https://cdn.automationdirect.com/sta...0datasheet.pdf
    So, what does the RJ cable connect too used for.

    Just make sure any encoder you get can be run at your spindle max RPM as some have a speed limit, plus for something like that Encoder you will need a support spindle with a bearings, to support the offset mounting. if it has to be offset with using timing pulleys
    Mactec54

  13. #13
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by servtech View Post
    Not only a pulse encoder with a marker pulse, the rigid tapping option needs the OEM to have fitted the correct hardware and enabled the option.

    Rigid tapping was alway an option, today many machines include it as standard.

    Just fitting a spindle encoder may not be enough in your case.
    The only hardware required is an encoder, and mounting it, the rest is done in software.
    Mactec54

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The only hardware required is an encoder, and mounting it, the rest is done in software.
    Encoder (with a timing belt and pulleys) the only hardware needed ?

    Back to basics....

    Spindle gearbox, pulleys, timing belts are hardware are they not?

    Spindle and axis drives both need power and accuracy to tap a blind hole to overcome standstill friction, at almost zero revs. Particularly in harder materials, stainless and bronze for example. The spindle needs to stop and reverse while the axis follows the spindle rpm with exactly the correct pitch.

    The very reason machines had pull out tap holders was to allow for pitch errors during stop and reversal, usually a 10% pull out length of pitch.

    Software wasn't the fix, it was hardware and software for a rigid tapping option.

  15. #15
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by servtech View Post
    Encoder (with a timing belt and pulleys) the only hardware needed ?

    Back to basics....

    Spindle gearbox, pulleys, timing belts are hardware are they not?

    Spindle and axis drives both need power and accuracy to tap a blind hole to overcome standstill friction, at almost zero revs. Particularly in harder materials, stainless and bronze for example. The spindle needs to stop and reverse while the axis follows the spindle rpm with exactly the correct pitch.

    The very reason machines had pull out tap holders was to allow for pitch errors during stop and reversal, usually a 10% pull out length of pitch.

    Software wasn't the fix, it was hardware and software for a rigid tapping option.
    Again No, have you ever built a machine that can do ridgid Taping, it is as I posted and nothing more.

    You seem to be out of touch with modern Tech, the photo I posted is just an example of an Encoder and Software this machine has done thousands of Taped holes, with true Rigid Tapping with no compression tap holder needed.
    Mactec54

  16. #16
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by servtech View Post
    Not only a pulse encoder with a marker pulse, the rigid tapping option needs the OEM to have fitted the correct hardware and enabled the option.

    Rigid tapping was alway an option, today many machines include it as standard.

    Just fitting a spindle encoder may not be enough in your case.

    Hi servtech. Thanks for stopping by and helping.

    You are thinking of the big iron guys like Hass, Mazak, DMG Mori, etc. where every little option must be bought and then turned on in their control system.

    We are talking little iron here in which the control system is often a barebones pc motherboard and has Windows or Linux running a control program such as Mach 3/4 or LinuxCNC or UCCNC. Changing to another control system is as easy as loading a different control program and doing the proper configuration.

    For example, my mill originally came with a demo copy of Mach 3 and all the mill documentation showed Mach 3 stuff. I decided that I did not want to pay for a licensed copy of Mach 3 and instead used that money towards a copy of the UCCNC control system.

    For whatever reason Mach 3 was not able to do rigid tapping even if the mill hardware had the ability. Linux CNC and UCCNC are able to do rigid tapping as long as the spindle is able to be controlled accurately by the control software. Since my spindle is driven by a AC servo motor, all I need to add is encoder feedback so that UCCNC can properly synchronize the Z axis motion to the spindle rotation.

  17. #17
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    So, what does the RJ cable connect too used for.

    Just make sure any encoder you get can be run at your spindle max RPM as some have a speed limit, plus for something like that Encoder you will need a support spindle with a bearings, to support the offset mounting. if it has to be offset with using timing pulleys

    Novakon used RJ cables to connect the three axis stepper drives, along with the spindle servo driver, to their proprietary BOB.


    Attachment 490500

    Attachment 490502

    The two pictures above were obtained from the Novakon Pulsar Operators Manual. Caution, the link below will download a 207 page pdf.
    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/09...24468377470355

    In the second picture, the Spindle Servo Connector at the Novakon BOB says:
    Tapping Mode ON: The Jack Module Outputs Signals to the servo driver (Puls+, Puls-, Dir+, Dir-) from Outputs 7 & 8
    Tapping Mode OFF: The Jack Module Outputs Signals to the Servo driver (Puls+, Puls-, Dir+, Dir-) from Pins 14 & 16

    Novakon did something really clever in order to work around the inability of Mach 3 to support rigid tapping. They installed a switch on their BOB so that, withTapping Mode ON, the spindle servo drive would be reassigned from the Z axis to the A axis.

    Rigid Tapping with the Novakon Pulsar CNC Mill uses simple G-code. The proprietary BOB accurately controls the spindle revolutions in coordination with the Z feed rate to tap threaded holes.

    The basic G-code for rigid tapping includes setting the Incremental Distance Mode (G91), the tapping feed rate (F), the depth of the hole to be tapped (Z), and the number of treads (A). The number of threads is calculated by multiplying the depth of the hole to be tapped by the treads per inch (tpi) of the tap. Novakon has teamed with BobCAD and created a post processor to automatically generate the correct code required to accomplish rigid tapping.

  18. #18
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Here is a sample of rigid tapping G-code from the Pulsar manual if you are working under Mach 3 (or without encoder feedback under other Controller software). Sorry about the lousy formatting. I couldn't figure out how make the code more readable.


    (Novakon Rigid Tapping)

    M6 T130 (Call the Tool Change for the ½-13 tap.)

    G43 H130 Set the machine offset for the ½-13 tap.)

    M08 (Turn on the coolant – DO NOT turn ON the spindle.)

    G84 G98 X0.0000 Y0.0000 F150.0000 (Implement the Canned Rigid Tap Cycle, move to first hole at X = 0.0, Y = 0.0 and set the tapping Feed Rate to 150 inches per minute.)

    Z0.0000 (Lower the tap to the top of the hole.)

    G91 (Implement the Novakon Rigid Tapping Cycle.)

    G01 (Use the specified Feed Rate to tap the hole.)

    Z-1.0000 A13.0000 (Rotate the spindle clockwise 13.0000 revolutions as the tap is lowered one inch at the specified Feed Rate. If you are using BobCAD, it will automatically calculate the correct tpi.)

    Z1.0000 A-13.0000 (Rotate the spindle counterclockwise 13.0000 revolutions as tap is raised one inch at the specified Feed Rate.)

    G90 Z0.2000 (Implement the Absolute Distance Mode and move the tap 0.2 inches above hole.)

    X1.0000 (Move to the second hole at X = 1.0 and Y = 0.0.)

    Z0.0000 (Lower the tap to the top of the hole.)

    [I think the sample code forgot to put a G91 here]

    Z-1.0000 A13.0000 (Rotate the spindle clockwise 13.0000 revolutions as the tap is lowered one inch at the specified Feed Rate.)

    Z1.0000 A-13.0000 (Rotate the spindle counterclockwise 13.0000 revolutions as tap is raised one inch at the specified Feed Rate.)

    G90 Z0.2000 (Implement the Absolute Distance Mode and move to the tap 0.2 inches above hole.)

    G80 (Cancel the Novakon Rigid Tapping Cycle.)

    M09 M05 (Turn OFF the coolant and the spindle.)

    M30 (End of program.)

    %

  19. #19
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Here is a sample of rigid tapping G-code from the Pulsar manual if you are working under Mach 3 (or without encoder feedback under other Controller software). Sorry about the lousy formatting. I couldn't figure out how make the code more readable.


    (Novakon Rigid Tapping)

    M6 T130 (Call the Tool Change for the ½-13 tap.)

    G43 H130 Set the machine offset for the ½-13 tap.)

    M08 (Turn on the coolant – DO NOT turn ON the spindle.)

    G84 G98 X0.0000 Y0.0000 F150.0000 (Implement the Canned Rigid Tap Cycle, move to first hole at X = 0.0, Y = 0.0 and set the tapping Feed Rate to 150 inches per minute.)

    Z0.0000 (Lower the tap to the top of the hole.)

    G91 (Implement the Novakon Rigid Tapping Cycle.)

    G01 (Use the specified Feed Rate to tap the hole.)

    Z-1.0000 A13.0000 (Rotate the spindle clockwise 13.0000 revolutions as the tap is lowered one inch at the specified Feed Rate. If you are using BobCAD, it will automatically calculate the correct tpi.)

    Z1.0000 A-13.0000 (Rotate the spindle counterclockwise 13.0000 revolutions as tap is raised one inch at the specified Feed Rate.)

    G90 Z0.2000 (Implement the Absolute Distance Mode and move the tap 0.2 inches above hole.)

    X1.0000 (Move to the second hole at X = 1.0 and Y = 0.0.)

    Z0.0000 (Lower the tap to the top of the hole.)

    [I think the sample code forgot to put a G91 here]

    Z-1.0000 A13.0000 (Rotate the spindle clockwise 13.0000 revolutions as the tap is lowered one inch at the specified Feed Rate.)

    Z1.0000 A-13.0000 (Rotate the spindle counterclockwise 13.0000 revolutions as tap is raised one inch at the specified Feed Rate.)

    G90 Z0.2000 (Implement the Absolute Distance Mode and move to the tap 0.2 inches above hole.)

    G80 (Cancel the Novakon Rigid Tapping Cycle.)

    M09 M05 (Turn OFF the coolant and the spindle.)

    M30 (End of program.)

    %
    So, does this code they used for Mach3 not work with the UCCNC software, or you are not using the original hardware. the other way you can do threading is using thread mills which is faster and more efficient the rigid tapping. and you don't need encoder feedback to do any type of thread milling, so you have other choices as well.
    Mactec54

  20. #20
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    Re: UCCNC and rigid tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    So, does this code they used for Mach3 not work with the UCCNC software, or you are not using the original hardware. the other way you can do threading is using thread mills which is faster and more efficient the rigid tapping. and you don't need encoder feedback to do any type of thread milling, so you have other choices as well.
    This code does indeed work with UCCNC. I just got it working tonight. I first had to enable the A Axis. and then set Pin 7 Port 2 and Pin 8 Port 2 to the A-axis Step and Direction.

    The code in practice is super simple. Just set G91, a Feed Rate, and issue a G01. Then issue a -Z and A to tap down in the CW direction. Then issue a +Z and -A to move the tap upwards in the CCW direction.

    To use this rigid tapping ability means that I have to hand modify code generated by Fusion 360. I am hoping that a new encoder will let me use the Fusion 360 code without any modifications.

    I plan to use thread milling in the future.

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