[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I have installed possibly any many as two dozen, most in single phase installations and about 5 or 6 in 3 phase installations.
So, rather more than one.

Craig

[mactec54]

For whats its worth I bought this Fuling 3.7kW VFD, supposed to have vector control but I believe its only up to a certain amount of Hz. I'm in Australia running it on single phase 230-240v power.

It's run perfect so far with my jianken JGH105/2.2kw, 800Hz, 4 pole spindle. Something tells me the extra torque from being '4 pole' isnt really there OR I have the VFD set up funny. It seems to bog doe easier than some 2 pole spindles I have seen when taking the same cuts etc. Even still it's done the job very well for a while now, I just set it to 550-600Hz and that does 99% of my cutting.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...21ef1802exZHWp

It sounds like you don't have your VFD Drive setup correctly, and yes there are very few VFD Drive that the Vector control works with the High-Speed spindles they do work at the lower frequencies though.

Do you have a PDF manual of the VFD Drive you are using if you have I will take a look

[crjohnson]

Here is a link to it:

https://cononmotor.com.au/wp-content...600-Manual.pdf

I have done some test cuts where it hit 5 or more amps (on the VFD display) but just started bogging down. This happened at 14500RPM and 19500RPM. Not that I want to run it that hard full time, would be good to know that it is more capable than the standard 2-pole, 400Hz units around. Piotr Fox uses a 2 pole jianken spindle that I tried to compare mine to (whilst being mindful of the million other factors, machine rigidity, tooling etc).

[mactec54]

Here is a link to it:

https://cononmotor.com.au/wp-content...600-Manual.pdf

I have done some test cuts where it hit 5 or more amps (on the VFD display) but just started bogging down. This happened at 14500RPM and 19500RPM. Not that I want to run it that hard full time, would be good to know that it is more capable than the standard 2-pole, 400Hz units around. Piotr Fox uses a 2 pole jianken spindle that I tried to compare mine to (whilst being mindful of the million other factors, machine rigidity, tooling etc).

5Amps on the display =15Amps that is 5 amps per Phase so yes, I would expect it to bog down as that is above it's max operating amps

[crjohnson]

Yep, so what I don't really understand is how some people run 8-9-10amps (when the spindle is only rated to say 6.6amps in the case of Fox's 2.5kW jianken 2 pole), without doing any damage and they plough through material without bogging down.

Fox's spindle ran a 10mm deep x 4mm sidecut and hit 5.7amps max. (20,000RPM). My spindle hits 5amps at only 1.8mm side cuts, same feed rate, same tool and material etc. He then went on to do a 10deep x 8mm side cut and hit 10.4amps without a any bogging down! I would never try that but thought it was impressive and know that my spindle wont get anywhere near that though they are made by the same people and 4-pole vs 2-pole.

Also note I emailed jianken about the amps rating, he said:

"6amps is the current of each wire.
If your VFD shows 6amps, this is the maximum current. In this case, your spindle is working with full load, right? If so, it's OK.
When you set up your VFD about the overload current, usually we make it 1.5 times of the rated/maximum current. "


I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here, just suspious of the difference in performance of these 2 spindles.

[mactec54]

Yep, so what I don't really understand is how some people run 8-9-10amps (when the spindle is only rated to say 6.6amps in the case of Fox's 2.5kW jianken 2 pole), without doing any damage and they plough through material without bogging down.

Fox's spindle ran a 10mm deep x 4mm sidecut and hit 5.7amps max. (20,000RPM). My spindle hits 5amps at only 1.8mm side cuts, same feed rate, same tool and material etc. He then went on to do a 10deep x 8mm side cut and hit 10.4amps without a any bogging down! I would never try that but thought it was impressive and know that my spindle wont get anywhere near that though they are made by the same people and 4-pole vs 2-pole.

Also note I emailed jianken about the amps rating, he said:

"6amps is the current of each wire.
If your VFD shows 6amps, this is the maximum current. In this case, your spindle is working with full load, right? If so, it's OK.
When you set up your VFD about the overload current, usually we make it 1.5 times of the rated/maximum current. "


I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here, just suspious of the difference in performance of these 2 spindles.

His is 2.5Kw so has more Hp than your spindle, Hp wins every time.

What is your mains Power supply Amps to the VFD Drive???

2.2Kw is not 6.6A it should be around 8.5 to 10A for 2.2Kw, 6.6A to 7A is around what most 1.5Kw spindles use, sometimes the specs listed are for 380v so this can be confusing, I would put your motor Amps Parameter at 8.5A and then do some more tests, If the manufacture says it is 6.6A @240v then you have to stick with that.

Like they said also make sure you have set the overload Parameter to no more than 150% I usually use only 120% for all the imported spindles

His 2.5Kw spindle is .4Hp more than your spindle so that would make quite a difference in cut performance, even though it is 2 Pole has more Hp

Hp rules when it comes to taking a heavy cut. Torque helps to maintain a cut, because the 2 spindles are different you can't really compare them.

If you have a 2.2Kw 2Pole and a 2,2Kw 4Pole both 400Hz then the 4 Pole would be the best spindle to have if you need more torque at the lower speeds.

[crjohnson]

Fair point about the extra 300W.
Mine and Fox's are both 220V units, the specs engraved on the spindles are 6.6A (2.5kW) and 6.0A for my 2.2kW.

When I look at the torque graphs for these spindles the 2.5kW unit has a max of 0.89Nm up to 24000RPM (constant, no tapering), mine is supposed to have 2.14Nm@12000RPM tapering to 1.07Nm @ 24000RPM. Using these figures Fox's is 2.237kW, mine is 2.689kW?? I feel like these graphs are wrong? Could mine simply be a de-rated 2.5kW unit?

Also are you saying that I should set my F02.05 rated current to 8.5A which is a total of 25.5A running through it? In your previous post you mentioned 5A on the display is 15 in total and too much? Or set the F08.37 'output overcurrent threshold' to 142%? I don't remember ever setting F08.37 so it may still be at 200%.

EDIT: The mains supply is not technically a 15amp type supply, have never had any issues but will watch the voltage next time I am milling and see if it drops?

[Buoyen]

I have not read everything in detail, but here is a suggestion:
I think this comes down to VFD tuning.

The motor will run at 10A no problem for a SHORT time with out overheating (thermal inertia)
The VFD will supply the needed current to keep the set spindle rpm as long as no trip functions are activated.

Stable RPM in the cut then comes down to tuning the parametres and how good the controller loop in the VFD is built/programmed.
I think there will be some differences between a cheap VFD and more expencive one because of this, but you should be able to improve the performance with tuning either way.

[Buoyen]

I see you have the WJ200 VFD and it has parametres for tuning.

About 4-pole vs 2-pole.
Historically you could buy motors with two sets of terminals. 1 for 2 pole operation and 1 for 4 pole.
With the same input, ie 220V/60Hz, the motor would run at half speed/double torque in the 4 pole setting.

When such a motor is drives with a VFD you can up the frequency to 120Hz to gain full speed even in 4 pole operation. However the voltage is the same (220V) so now you have lost the high speed torque. You have however gained low speed torque compared to the 2-pole/full speed setting. The motor is constant torque below the rated freq (60Hz) and constant power above this freq.

The chinese high speed spindle manufactures are interpreting this to their spindles (WRONG) and say the 4 pole have more torque than a 2 pole.
This is not correct because they alter the base frequency at the same time and basically produces a spindle with the same torque/speed curve, it beeing a 2 pole or 4 pole motor.

[mactec54]

Fair point about the extra 300W.
Mine and Fox's are both 220V units, the specs engraved on the spindles are 6.6A (2.5kW) and 6.0A for my 2.2kW.

When I look at the torque graphs for these spindles the 2.5kW unit has a max of 0.89Nm up to 24000RPM (constant, no tapering), mine is supposed to have 2.14Nm@12000RPM tapering to 1.07Nm @ 24000RPM. Using these figures Fox's is 2.237kW, mine is 2.689kW?? I feel like these graphs are wrong? Could mine simply be a de-rated 2.5kW unit?

Also are you saying that I should set my F02.05 rated current to 8.5A which is a total of 25.5A running through it? In your previous post you mentioned 5A on the display is 15 in total and too much? Or set the F08.37 'output overcurrent threshold' to 142%? I don't remember ever setting F08.37 so it may still be at 200%.

EDIT: The mains supply is not technically a 15amp type supply, have never had any issues but will watch the voltage next time I am milling and see if it drops?

You are confusing the read-out with the Parameter setting they are completely different, the Parameters are what the rating is so yes you can set that to 8.5A and you will be fine, yes the over current must be set I would use 120%

Your 15A mains supply Power is not enough for a 2.2Kw spindle it should have a minimum of 20A /25A the input power to the VFD Drive needs double the output when using single phase supply, so your spindle is not able to get enough power so it will not perform very well

You should have a minimum of a 30A supply for your whole machine.

[Waynekofuco]

If you have a 2.2Kw 2Pole and a 2,2Kw 4Pole both 400Hz then the 4 Pole would be the best spindle to have if you need more torque at the lower speeds.

Of all the responses to this thread, this is the one I find most enlightening. It also is in line with what Alex at CNCDepot explained to me.
Im now considering the CNCDepot FM30F (four pole) mated to my WJ200-022SF

[Waynekofuco]

Yep, so what I don't really understand is how some people run 8-9-10amps (when the spindle is only rated to say 6.6amps in the case of Fox's 2.5kW jianken 2 pole), without doing any damage and they plough through material without bogging down.

Fox's spindle ran a 10mm deep x 4mm sidecut and hit 5.7amps max. (20,000RPM). My spindle hits 5amps at only 1.8mm side cuts, same feed rate, same tool and material etc. He then went on to do a 10deep x 8mm side cut and hit 10.4amps without a any bogging down! I would never try that but thought it was impressive and know that my spindle wont get anywhere near that though they are made by the same people and 4-pole vs 2-pole.

Also note I emailed jianken about the amps rating, he said:

"6amps is the current of each wire.
If your VFD shows 6amps, this is the maximum current. In this case, your spindle is working with full load, right? If so, it's OK.
When you set up your VFD about the overload current, usually we make it 1.5 times of the rated/maximum current. "


I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here, just suspious of the difference in performance of these 2 spindles.

@crjohnson I reviewed Fox's spindle videos. Do you know what VFD and settings he's using? In the videos hes running the spindle up to 24000RPM so he must be using an 800Hz capable VFD

[crjohnson]

He mentions that he uses the settings in his other video: https://youtu.be/ZOdCpw7xnQA

He has a 2 pole, 400Hz, 24000RPM, 6.6amps. These figures are shown in this video: https://youtu.be/pWNeW-lH9RA

[Waynekofuco]

He has a 2 pole, 400Hz, 24000RPM, 6.6amps. These figures are shown in this video:

Thanks, I see that now. Alibaba quotes the spindle at 800Hz, Jainken quotes 400Hz and 400/800Hz.

I thought the VFD video predated the Jainken.

[mactec54]

Thanks, I see that now. Alibaba quotes the spindle at 800Hz, Jainken quotes 400Hz and 400/800Hz.

I thought the VFD video predated the Jainken.

The 400/800Hz is the 4 Pole Spindle motor with a Base speed of 12,000 RPM and 24,000 RPM max

[Waynekofuco]

Ive had some dialog with Wafer at Jainken, he was who I dealt with w my first spindle, and Jainken now offers the 3.2KW in 400Hz or 800Hz. As I initially posted, the goal was to move from ISO20 to BT30 for larger tooling specifically for facing. On my 2.2Kw ISO20 spindle I got good cuts w small tools, but never felt comfortable using a tool larger than 3/8". I want to be able to use a shell face mill or some larger facing endmill to finish aluminum.

so now in the running is the
either the Jainken 3.2Kw 400Hz or 800Hz using https://www.ato.com/5hp-vfd-single-phase-input-output
or
either the CNCDepot FM30 400Hz or FM30F 800Hz using my WJ200

Again this is moving from a steel fixed garnty router that had a lot of headstock flex 2nd the AL spindle mounting plate to a full cast iron VMC.

Either Jainken option is considerably cheaper than the CNCDepot option as Wafer is giving me a deal as my 2nd spindle from them. I know the quality is great. But I don’t know if I actually need 3.2Kw.

Also as Ive read more about the differences of 2 pole vs 4 pole motors and all thing being equal the 4 pole is less efficient and noisier. Is a 2 pole motor capable of running a 50mm facemill at reasonable rpm for such a face mill?

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Is a 2 pole motor capable of running a 50mm facemill at reasonable rpm for such a face mill?

I don't think ANY of these spindles will do a good job with a 2 inch face mill. These spindle have low torque but high speed whereas a face mill
requires high torque and low speed.

A 50mm diameter face mill cutting steel with carbide tips still requires a surface speed of 100m/min (give or take a margin for coatings/cutting style preference)

50mm x PI= 157mm/rev therefore:
RPM_100m/min= 100 / 0.157
=637 rpm

Do you think any of the spindles you are looking at, be they 2 pole or 4 pole, are going to survive spinning at less than 1000rpm and developing the power required to cut?

Craig

[Waynekofuco]

Hi,

Do you think any of the spindles you are looking at, be they 2 pole or 4 pole, are going to survive spinning at less than 1000rpm and developing the power required to cut?

Craig

I have no idea, that why I'm asking. I'm open to a belt driven spindle, but when I look at normal spindle surface speed of 600 f/m for AL for tooling 1/8"-3/8" cutters the recommended spindle RPM is 18000-6000. Most of the servo/belt driven spindles I see are limited to 6000rpm.

Im still trying to learn my way through all of this. My current understanding is that for AL, spindle rpm should be >10000rpm for best finishes. Using spindles capable of those rpms, what type of tool is used for facing? I'll keep reading \up on speeds and feeds for dummies...

[mactec54]

Hi,


I don't think ANY of these spindles will do a good job with a 2 inch face mill. These spindle have low torque but high speed whereas a face mill
requires high torque and low speed.

A 50mm diameter face mill cutting steel with carbide tips still requires a surface speed of 100m/min (give or take a margin for coatings/cutting style preference)

50mm x PI= 157mm/rev therefore:
RPM_100m/min= 100 / 0.157
=637 rpm

Do you think any of the spindles you are looking at, be they 2 pole or 4 pole, are going to survive spinning at less than 1000rpm and developing the power required to cut?

Craig

That is a ridiculous RPM number you have posted, I run, and most machinists run 2" to 3" face milling cutters from 2,800 RPM to 4,000 RPM for aluminum machining.

These Amana Face Mills run from 8,000 RPM to 12,000 RPM which are suited for these spindles controlling cut depth is important, choosing the right Tooling is important too.

https://www.amanatool.com/products/i...-x-1-4-inch-sh

https://www.amanatool.com/rc-3400-cn...outer-bit.html

[mactec54]

I have no idea, that why I'm asking. I'm open to a belt driven spindle, but when I look at normal spindle surface speed of 600 f/m for AL for tooling 1/8"-3/8" cutters the recommended spindle RPM is 18000-6000. Most of the servo/belt driven spindles I see are limited to 6000rpm.

Im still trying to learn my way through all of this. My current understanding is that for AL, spindle rpm should be >10000rpm for best finishes. Using spindles capable of those rpms, what type of tool is used for facing? I'll keep reading \up on speeds and feeds for dummies...

10,000 RPM is not need for good finishes the higher the spindle speed the faster the feed, so you get the job done quicker nothing more to it.
A high-speed Spindle has an advantage for small diameter milling cutters though.

If you have a spindle that can only do 3000 RPM Max, you can still get the same quality finish, just at a slower rate.