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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82

    M91 in nakamura tw-10

    Hi!!

    Maybe some smart head is able to help me - I work at nakamura tw-10 - first operation face off then I have to engage c-axis (left turret) so I use M91. Next operation milling c0, c90,c180, c270, part is quite simple.
    the proplem is after turning chuck is in "nobody knows" position, I write M91 and g0 c0 to rehome chuck but it takes time, sometimes after turning I see c axis in 450deg. I cannot wait 3-4 sec. until chuck will be back in 0. Maybe someone knows how M91 works, I need details or some way to fix the problem and make it shorter.
    Thank You Guys

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    71
    Is there a setting in your control for the rewind of your C axis? What is the code to send your C axis to machine zero? G28 maybe?
    You CAN do anything, if you REALLY want to, but how many people really want to?
    Kyle

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82
    G28 allows me to rehome turret G28U0V0W0, I was using G0C0.0 to rehome c axis, maybe G28 that is the solution; first question - I have no idea whatsoever, I guess You are talking about parameters, but I'm not "so deep"; I think M91 - c-axis engage should rotate chuck to machine zero...anyway I'll try G28 maybe that is going to be faster, thanks Slavetothemetal...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2932
    Try this:

    (engage c)
    G0 G28 H0
    G50 C0
    (cut)
    (cut)
    (cut)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    1003
    Quote Originally Posted by dcoupar View Post
    Try this:

    (engage c)
    G0 G28 H0
    G50 C0
    (cut)
    (cut)
    (cut)
    Didn't work for me. Main spindle turned instead of live tool.

    I also would like to minimize the dwell time when the live tool is initiated. Best I could tell with a stop watch is the M91 is taking slightly less than 5 seconds. A 4 second cut in cycle time adds up when you have been running the same job for over 3 years.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    71
    Is there a setting for direction? On our Mori NL, I say M45(C axis engage) then G0G28H0. Is M91 your command for C axis engage?
    You CAN do anything, if you REALLY want to, but how many people really want to?
    Kyle

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by g-codeguy View Post
    Didn't work for me. Main spindle turned instead of live tool.I also would like to minimize the dwell time when the live tool is initiated. Best I could tell with a stop watch is the M91 is taking slightly less than 5 seconds. A 4 second cut in cycle time adds up when you have been running the same job for over 3 years.
    - that is the idea to turn the main spindle to correct angle and do it in short period of time; live tool works when U use M89 - just want to remain I would like to talk about TW-10 Nakamura - that is the main subject

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82
    Quote Originally Posted by dcoupar View Post
    Try this:

    (engage c)
    G0 G28 H0
    G50 C0
    (cut)
    (cut)
    (cut)
    I saw G50 somewhere but I don't know much about that code, I was using G50 with G96 but I know G50 can be a big problem because of the offsets, if U know some good website with description written using language for normal people without PCHD, please send me a link, for this moment I don't want to use Gcode I'm not 100% sure how it works, thank You 4 your post dcoupar :cheers:

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    1003
    Quote Originally Posted by maximusek View Post
    - that is the idea to turn the main spindle to correct angle and do it in short period of time; live tool works when U use M89 - just want to remain I would like to talk about TW-10 Nakamura - that is the main subject
    I am talking about the TW-10. Well, TW-20 in my case. You only want the spindle to turn enough to reach the programmed C-code. What happened for me was the main spindle ran at the RPM programmed for the live tool. And then the tool tried to move in the Z-minus direction into the part per the program. Not good for the tool, don't cha know.

    My program is

    M91
    G50 C0

    and runs fine, except for sitting there doing nothing for almost 5 seconds. This is the exact same thing as your original post.

    I tried the solution 'dcoupar' offered. Maybe you didn't read my comments closely enough. I am not trying to change the question, but find the EXACT SAME SOLUTION AS YOUR ARE.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2932
    M91 is probably calling a macro or a sub-program. Check parameters 6071 through 6089 and see if there's a 91 in any of them. We might be able to adjust the macro to improve the performance.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82
    Quote Originally Posted by g-codeguy View Post
    I am talking about the TW-10. Well, TW-20 in my case. You only want the spindle to turn enough to reach the programmed C-code. What happened for me was the main spindle ran at the RPM programmed for the live tool. And then the tool tried to move in the Z-minus direction into the part per the program. Not good for the tool, don't cha know.

    My program is

    M91
    G50 C0

    and runs fine, except for sitting there doing nothing for almost 5 seconds. This is the exact same thing as your original post.

    I tried the solution 'dcoupar' offered. Maybe you didn't read my comments closely enough. I am not trying to change the question, but find the EXACT SAME SOLUTION AS YOUR ARE.
    - I didn't want to be rude but that the problem is, tw-20 is a little bit different then tw-10, somebody else started talking about Mori NL, the point is I'm trying to get some answer and wait for details, I don't need to develop the subject from tw-10 to milling/turning centers If You know what I mean; I do know You cannot compare cnc's and use the same solutions for all of them, mine is quite old, I last much time to figure out connection between Y-axis knock, spindle break and c-axis, program was getting crazy so I wrote the post to get some info; dcoupar wrote M91 calls macro, I use this code for left and right turret and effect is the same in my machine nothing happens, maybe U can put hole block of the program, I belive not M91 is the problem but something before or after, use single block and try to find critical line. Sorry If I was being rude, but that problem absorbed me so much and really needs to know how to fix it... :cheers: 4 Ya g-codeguy

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    2932
    Maxi,

    Have you ever tried G28 H0 instead of G28 C0?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    1003
    Quote Originally Posted by maximusek View Post
    - I didn't want to be rude but that the problem is, tw-20 is a little bit different then tw-10, somebody else started talking about Mori NL, the point is I'm trying to get some answer and wait for details, I don't need to develop the subject from tw-10 to milling/turning centers If You know what I mean; I do know You cannot compare cnc's and use the same solutions for all of them, mine is quite old, I last much time to figure out connection between Y-axis knock, spindle break and c-axis, program was getting crazy so I wrote the post to get some info; dcoupar wrote M91 calls macro, I use this code for left and right turret and effect is the same in my machine nothing happens, maybe U can put hole block of the program, I belive not M91 is the problem but something before or after, use single block and try to find critical line. Sorry If I was being rude, but that problem absorbed me so much and really needs to know how to fix it... :cheers: 4 Ya g-codeguy
    Apology excepted. I will point out that I am not the one who mentioned the Mori. Don't know how old our TW-20 is, but we bought it used several years ago. Far as I can recall the TW-10 we use to have didn't have live tooling. Can't believe there is any difference in how a TW-10 initializes the live tooling versus a TW-20 unless there is enough years between our two machines that Nakamura made a change in the interim for some reason.

    I haven't looked into this problem in years. At that time I was going by what I could find in the M-code list. Didn't know of this community. It will save several hours per year if we can figure out a way to eliminate the dwell. I will check tomorrow to see if there is somebody I can call if I have time.

    Will let you know if I find a solution.

    BTW, dcoupar, I will try your latest suggestion tomorrow. Thanks for trying to help.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82
    Quote Originally Posted by g-codeguy View Post
    Apology excepted. I will point out that I am not the one who mentioned the Mori. Don't know how old our TW-20 is, but we bought it used several years ago. Far as I can recall the TW-10 we use to have didn't have live tooling. Can't believe there is any difference in how a TW-10 initializes the live tooling versus a TW-20 unless there is enough years between our two machines that Nakamura made a change in the interim for some reason.

    I haven't looked into this problem in years. At that time I was going by what I could find in the M-code list. Didn't know of this community. It will save several hours per year if we can figure out a way to eliminate the dwell. I will check tomorrow to see if there is somebody I can call if I have time.

    Will let you know if I find a solution.
    http://www.methodsmachine.com/Machin...titasking.aspx - here U have link to compare those two nakamura's, believe me, mine is very old, I don't even have HP pumps; I worked with tw-10, wt-150, swiss Maier ML, all of them have Fanuc 18 controllers but there is so many different things then I don't want to try, I just need to know, that's why I was looking for someone, who knows tw-10. By the way, I didn't say U mention Mori - now You owe me a beer Thanks for Your time, on monday I will try to attack program and make few changes then write how everything goes...for now Have a nice Thanksgiving for everyone...maximusek out

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    55
    Naki Guys,

    Try this...

    Instead of issuing the M91 to change from main spindle to live tooling, try M98P9000. This is a sub that engages the C axis, homes it out (in about 1 second), and engages the live tooling unit. Then use the M41 to disengage after you are done. I don't ever use the M91 command because of the same problem. The only time I have the 5 second engagement now is when the M98P9000 is issued when it the C axis is all ready engauged.

    P.S. - mine are TW-10's

    JK

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1003
    I had considered trying the M98P9000 subprogram, but since it contained an M91, I figured it wouldn't be any faster. Might even be slower. However, I am willing to give it a try Monday. Thanks.

  17. #17
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    Jul 2007
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by Sump Cleaner View Post
    Naki Guys,

    Try this...

    Instead of issuing the M91 to change from main spindle to live tooling, try M98P9000. This is a sub that engages the C axis, homes it out (in about 1 second), and engages the live tooling unit. Then use the M41 to disengage after you are done. I don't ever use the M91 command because of the same problem. The only time I have the 5 second engagement now is when the M98P9000 is issued when it the C axis is all ready engauged.

    P.S. - mine are TW-10's

    JK
    - Is it a standard sub implemented in every machine?? for me it seems first I have to save it on HDD and then I can call it, same like bar change subprogram...can You write here all , I would like to see into it, Thank You very much for answer...

    PS. we don't fight, it's only argumenting, that way we teach each other

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    55
    Hey Guys,

    Here is a copy of the sub...

    %
    :9000(C-AXIS ENGAGE)
    M91
    M27
    G28H-3.M28
    G50C0
    M99
    %

    I'm not sure if this sub is standard on all Naki's with C axis. These two TW-10's came straight from Elliott brand new in the mid 90's and the subs were in there. (both machines, both left and right sides)

    The only other thing I can offer is the double engagement. The only time I get this condition (where the c axis goes around about 400° slowly before it homes out) is when the call is issued and the C axis is allready engauged. Also, if the axis is disengauged and then reengauged without doing some turning in between it can give a slow result.

    Keep me posted guys.

    Thanks

    JK

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Sump Cleaner View Post
    Hey Guys,

    Here is a copy of the sub...

    %
    :9000(C-AXIS ENGAGE)
    M91
    M27
    G28H-3.M28
    G50C0
    M99
    %

    Keep me posted guys.

    Thanks

    JK
    9000 program in our machine was slightly different. Had an M41 in first block and no block with G50C0. I tried using the M98P9000 with subprogram as it was when delivered to us. No help. Didn't actually time it. Changed 9000 program to run like yours. According to my stopwatch this took longer than my original program. I did add the M41 at the end of the live tooling operation as suggested above. This also caused a loss in cycle time.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    55
    G-codeguy,

    Can you post your code so I can have a look at it? Maybe there is something here that I can learn about cycle time reduction.

    Thanks,

    JK

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