Thread: Cheap drives?

**Chris D** · 06-29-2008, 01:06 PM

Perhaps a bit of perspective is needed here....

First and foremost I will be buying 3 drives as soon as I can.

This thread started out with a concept of a sub $30.00 drive with certain performance characteristics. The design and development process was openly discussed from beginning to near end. A few small price adjustments were explained in great detail during the design process. Your own pricing structure was explained in great detail etc. Even all your own failures were openly explained here in the forum. Then suddenly at the end the price doubles. You have to admit, from a customer point of view this is a bit strange.

At this time you are trying to justify the price increase due to concerns there could be manfacturing problems and no way to absorb them based on tight margins. You didn't think of this in the begining of the design process?

You are also trying to justify the price increase based on your costs to process an order. Frankly, if it takes your employees 30 minutes to process an order, you really need to work on the efficiency of your operation there. You didn't know this in the beginning of the design process?

Is it possible that you recently realized how inefficient your company is run and that quality control is marginal enough that have to increase prices to cover those shortcomings?

I fully understand that selling a $30.00 product is hard to do and make money at. While there are thousands of companies that do it on a regular basis, I certainly couldn't do it either. But in the end, it was you that explained the pricing from the beginning - it was you that justified the price from the beginning. It is you who suddenly realized that you cannot manufacture and sell a product at the price promised months ago. You have been in business long enough to know that manufacturing problems exist and yet you didn't plan for that in your equation for pricing? You didn't consider the internal costs to process an order in your original pricing?

This, coming from the guy who has explained the cost of virtually every penny of this project is a bit strange. So forgive us, the customers, for being a bit puzzled as to why you had to double the prices at the end. Also take a moment to look at things from our perspective and why some of us feel justified in our feelings.

I know in the end the product this will be a high quality product that will deliver on the quoted performance. The down side to this whole thread and project is that it clearly has shown the "not so good side" of Gecko.

Chris - who will buy three drives at the intro price.

Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis

The 2-week intro price will be $29 for the G250, $39 for the G251 in any quantity. Buy one or buy a bazillion.

Please walk in my shoes for a minute:

1) It costs us just over $15 to process an order. It makes no difference if the order is for 1 drive or a 1,000 drives. This is oftentimes the "handling" in "shipping and handling". We have never charged for handling because the big orders cover that expense for the single-piece orders. That $15 constitutes more than 50% of the gross profit for a $31 drive.

2) If the single piece price is $31, what is the 10, 100 and 1,000 piece price? There is simply no room to make it less. There is no incentive for resellers to buy the drives then. The consequence will be most orders will be small ones, straining the "handling" bottleneck to the breaking point.

Here's the numbers: We have 3 people in the office. It takes on average 30 minutes to process an order from phone / internet to product in a box ready for UPS or FedEx. This means each person can complete only 16 orders per day. The practical maximum is 30 orders a day since there are other office tasks that have to be done.

If all those orders are for 1 drive each, the income for the company is $930 per day. You cannot pay 10 employees, taxes and facility operating costs with that.

Those are the economic realities. I wish it were different. It would be nice if a drive could magically appear in your hand when you wanted it and $31 would appear in our company account as payment. Were that possible, I'd be perfectly happy. Unfortunately there are those irreducible transaction costs standing in the way. We have to sell these drives in large volumes or it simply won't work out.

Mariss

**ger21** · 06-29-2008, 01:12 PM

Compare it to the competition. A 3 axis Xylotex is $155 for 2.5Amps and ~30 Volts. And as a lot of users have found out recently, they can suffer from resonance pretty badly. For $25 more, the G250 can run bigger motors at probably double the speed of a Xylotex, with no resonance to worry about. You're getting a lot of bang for the buck at $61. There are no comparable products out there at this price. Keling has a drive that's close, at 3a and 40V, for $55, but no resonance compensation. For $6, I'll go with the G250. which should offer ~25% better performance running at 48V.

Just need to find some 3.5amp motors.

**ger21** · 06-29-2008, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Chris D

At this time you are trying to justify the price increase due to concerns there could be manfacturing problems and no way to absorb them based on tight margins. You didn't think of this in the begining of the design process?

As for manufacturing, they've stated that in order to even attempt this drive, they needed to come up with a new manufacturing process that they've never used before. So I'd guess that the reason they never gave a firm price is because they did think about it before hand.

The $29 was a target price, and nowhere in this thread did they ever say it would be available in $29 quantities, so if they never gave a firm price, you can't say that it doubled. Sure, it's double their original target, but again, they never gave a firm price, because they didn't know what it would cost.

They did give a firm price on large quantities about a month ago, and they did not increase that estimate.

And lastly, they are selling them for $29. In single quantities. And you can buy as many as you want, for two weeks. Buy 20, sell what you don't need on Ebay, and you'll get your drives for free and a nice little profit, too.

**sawmiller** · 06-29-2008, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis

Hi,

I'm interested to know what your thoughts are if Geckodrive should
produce an inexpensive, board-level drive. Target specs are:

1) 3A per phase, 50VDC max. Discrete all n-channel MOSFETs.
2) 10 microsteps per step, CPLD design.
3) No midband resonance compensation, no morphing.
4) No trimpot crossover adjust.
5) Audibly silent design (not a chopper, same PWM as a G203V).
6) No plate, no can, no nice connectors. Just a board and header.
7) No opto-isolator.
8) No heatsinking needed. Everything is surface-mount.
9) No protection circuitry.
10) Target price: $29 single quantity.

This proposed drive would be a derivative of the G203V stripped of all expensive items and many features in order to fit it into a $0.99 CPLD. It would still be a dual all n-channel full-bridge design using 20A rated discrete MOSFETs. Not a fragile monolithic IC design.

The idea is to make a bottom-price yet quality and rugged step motor drive. The "bang for the buck" equation works out to:

3A times 50VDC divided by $29 equals 5.17 as the value number. Try this equation on other drives. The bigger the number, the better the value.

Mariss

and at least 10 times later he talks about prices within 2-3 dollars of this price.
sorry ger, but he does say $29 single quanity.
again, this is america, charge what ya want.
but dont double the price and expect us not to question it.
if i did that in my biz, i would have to field questions also.
dan

**Crevice Reamer** · 06-29-2008, 02:14 PM

Sure, he quoted a $29 target price for a completely stripped drive. What you aren't noticing is that Mariss put MOST of the stripped out features back INTO the cheap drive. So the original $29 drive is now WORTH much more.

CR.

**Ch_Irawan** · 06-29-2008, 04:20 PM

The new pricing scheme is much more logic to me, before ($29) I name it "insane".

-ichan

**joeybagadonuts** · 06-29-2008, 04:23 PM

Hi,

I want to buy the whole kit, is there a package deal with the four drives and BOB interface?

Also are you sure you can package and process 1000 drives for $15.00

Thats over 80 pieces you have to handle.

JoeyB

**jhowelb** · 06-29-2008, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis View Post

Hi,

I'm interested to know what your thoughts are if Geckodrive should
produce an inexpensive, board-level drive. Target specs are:

1) 3A per phase, 50VDC max. Discrete all n-channel MOSFETs.
2) 10 microsteps per step, CPLD design.
3) No midband resonance compensation, no morphing.
4) No trimpot crossover adjust.
5) Audibly silent design (not a chopper, same PWM as a G203V).
6) No plate, no can, no nice connectors. Just a board and header.
7) No opto-isolator.
8) No heatsinking needed. Everything is surface-mount.
9) No protection circuitry.
10) Target price: $29 single quantity.

This proposed drive would be a derivative of the G203V stripped of all expensive items and many features in order to fit it into a $0.99 CPLD. It would still be a dual all n-channel full-bridge design using 20A rated discrete MOSFETs. Not a fragile monolithic IC design.

The idea is to make a bottom-price yet quality and rugged step motor drive. The "bang for the buck" equation works out to:

3A times 50VDC divided by $29 equals 5.17 as the value number. Try this equation on other drives. The bigger the number, the better the value.

Mariss

Please notice "Target price" is not a promise but a goal.

My God, how many of you could live up to the standards you want to press upon someone else? He missed his goal but the product has been much improved! If you don't like the price then go find one whose price you do like.

GROW UP!

**Mike Nash** · 06-29-2008, 05:46 PM

I certainly hope that all off those who feel the drives are great bargains at $61 each are going to wait to purchase until they can pay that amount. That will leave a few more for those who've held off purchasing other products so they could buy a $29-31 Gecko.

As for myself, I too felt a bit shocked at the recently revealed pricing structure. The original goal was stated as $29 single quantity(see link 1 below). The goal was subsequently bumped to $30(2) then $33(3) due to component costs. Then down to $30 with added features and hardware.(4) Then there's some question as to cost at it becomes $30-36.(5) In March we find "About $45 for the 'Cheap' version, about $35 for the 'Dirt-Cheap' version"(6) Also in March we get the new differentiated Model Numbers "I thought I would fill everyone in on the current status of the G251 (G250 is the 'dirt-cheap' version, G251 is the 'cheap' version with mounting plate and screw-terminal connector block)." (7)

Whoops! Come end of April and instead of shipping drives(8) we get "$29 for the G250 in large quantities, a little more for the G251."(9) Then there is this statement "Bringing the drive budget (cost of manufacture) back into line means we will be able to meet the promised end-user price. This was very difficult to do and I'm proud of the accomplishment."(10) (Added color not in original post)

And finally (as of this post anyway) "We said the G250 will be $29 drive. The G250s will be $29 drives for two weeks as an introductory price. This will happen sometime next week or at the worst, the week after should we run into unexpected problems." and "Qty 1 G250, $61 Qty 12 G250, $51 Qty 96 G250, $41 Qty 1008 G250, $31"(11) Plus "The 2-week intro price will be $29 for the G250, $39 for the G251 in any quantity. Buy one or buy a bazillion."(12)

I respectfully question the availabilty of a "bazillion" drives during the 2 week intro since Marcus Freimanis stated in post 580 "We do not take preorders because the chances of losing the order that is already paid for is too high. We only take orders when we have product to ship." and reiterated this in post 583.

Mariss stated "If I could design a drive with $0.20 worth of parts we would sell it for $1. Any price not tied to the cost of production is based on perceived value and that's greedy."(2)

What's the point of this little exercise? I'm just showing how Geckodrive has "managed customer expectations" in perhaps a disadvantageous manner. True, it does look as if they are going to honor the original intent for a short period. And it will apparently cost them for small orders during this 2 week period. But it is further true that there has been a sense of, at minimum, disappointment felt by many hobbyists. Probably far more than will ever bother to comment. Good will is damaged when a person feels they have been "strung along". Need I mention CNCBridges (well over 100,000 views in various threads) or the Xaser (over 11,000 views)?

I agree with PoolQ in post 958 that a handling charge would be a much more palatable arrangement.

And remember folks, the G250 has neither a terminal strip nor a mounting plate! There is going to be added cost on your part to interface with the drive. (BTW, the G250 Rev 5 manual still mentions a case and bottom plate under heatsinking.)

While I can't fault Geckodrive with the pricing structure, (it's their product after all), I can feel as if I've been following a yellow brick road. I respect Mariss a great deal, but I'm also amazed at his near god-like stature among some people on this forum. Hopefully he won't start selling grape kool-aid any time soon.

**PoolQ** · 06-29-2008, 06:36 PM

My thoughts about Gecko:
I own 3 of their drives and love them!
Their customer survace is abouve and beyound the rest
Their engineering is the best of class
The value of their drives is outstanding

My guess as to what happened is that they do a significant abount of business through their resellers and that these resellers work hard to sell Gecko drives. They also sell to large OEM's directly.

Putting out a $30 drive that is priced at the Gecko minimum required to stay in business would cut out the resellers and be a slap in the face to them.

If I were a Gecko reseller The posts in this forum would be mild compared to what I was thinking about this move.

Lesson learned:
1) Engineering sets product cost and not resale pricing
2) Communicating sensitive issues to customers is what sales and marketing do

$30 would have been nice, but I will buy at $61.
Using handling costs as the reason for all this seems a bit strange because the math just does not work out.

The $6 cost is outstanding engineering
the $30 volume pricing is also outstanding engineering
same for the $61 single pricing

I don't think any of this has to do with product cost or final pricing. There are solid reasons why the Gecko brand has value.

"Now that all the engineering is done, we at Gecko have discovered a significant problem with pricing. Selling these new drives at $31 in single quantities would change our entire business model and this could cripple the company. The new pricing, for production units will have to be as follows:
Qty 1 G250, $61
Qty 12 G250, $51
Qty 96 G250, $41
Qty 1008 G250, $31

Because so many of you have been following this thread with the expectation of being able to purchase the G250 at $31 we are going to offer a 2 week window to purchase up to 8 drives (2 machines) at $31 each. Please use coupon code IAMIN when placing your order.

We are very sorry for the change in plans and pricing, but this could have put us out of business. I hope you can understand and excuse our learning curve."

Of course this is NOT a real quote, but a suggestion

**the4thseal** · 06-29-2008, 06:40 PM

when can i buy some? i do not want to mis the 2 week period.

**joeybagadonuts** · 06-29-2008, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Nash

I certainly hope that all off those who feel the drives are great bargains at $61 each are going to wait to purchase until they can pay that amount. That will leave a few more for those who've held off purchasing other products so they could buy a $29-31 Gecko.

As for myself, I too felt a bit shocked at the recently revealed pricing structure. The original goal was stated as $29 single quantity(see link 1 below). The goal was subsequently bumped to $30(2) then $33(3) due to component costs. Then down to $30 with added features and hardware.(4) Then there's some question as to cost at it becomes $30-36.(5) In March we find "About $45 for the 'Cheap' version, about $35 for the 'Dirt-Cheap' version"(6) Also in March we get the new differentiated Model Numbers "I thought I would fill everyone in on the current status of the G251 (G250 is the 'dirt-cheap' version, G251 is the 'cheap' version with mounting plate and screw-terminal connector block)." (7)

Whoops! Come end of April and instead of shipping drives(8) we get "$29 for the G250 in large quantities, a little more for the G251."(9) Then there is this statement "Bringing the drive budget (cost of manufacture) back into line means we will be able to meet the promised end-user price. This was very difficult to do and I'm proud of the accomplishment."(10) (Added color not in original post)

And finally (as of this post anyway) "We said the G250 will be $29 drive. The G250s will be $29 drives for two weeks as an introductory price. This will happen sometime next week or at the worst, the week after should we run into unexpected problems." and "Qty 1 G250, $61 Qty 12 G250, $51 Qty 96 G250, $41 Qty 1008 G250, $31"(11) Plus "The 2-week intro price will be $29 for the G250, $39 for the G251 in any quantity. Buy one or buy a bazillion."(12)

I respectfully question the availabilty of a "bazillion" drives during the 2 week intro since Marcus Freimanis stated in post 580 "We do not take preorders because the chances of losing the order that is already paid for is too high. We only take orders when we have product to ship." and reiterated this in post 583.

Mariss stated "If I could design a drive with $0.20 worth of parts we would sell it for $1. Any price not tied to the cost of production is based on perceived value and that's greedy."(2)

What's the point of this little exercise? I'm just showing how Geckodrive has "managed customer expectations" in perhaps a disadvantageous manner. True, it does look as if they are going to honor the original intent for a short period. And it will apparently cost them for small orders during this 2 week period. But it is further true that there has been a sense of, at minimum, disappointment felt by many hobbyists. Probably far more than will ever bother to comment. Good will is damaged when a person feels they have been "strung along". Need I mention CNCBridges (well over 100,000 views in various threads) or the Xaser (over 11,000 views)?

I agree with PoolQ in post 958 that a handling charge would be a much more palatable arrangement.

And remember folks, the G250 has neither a terminal strip nor a mounting plate! There is going to be added cost on your part to interface with the drive. (BTW, the G250 Rev 5 manual still mentions a case and bottom plate under heatsinking.)

While I can't fault Geckodrive with the pricing structure, (it's their product after all), I can feel as if I've been following a yellow brick road. I respect Mariss a great deal, but I'm also amazed at his near god-like stature among some people on this forum. Hopefully he won't start selling grape kool-aid any time soon.

Mike,

Who is CNC Bridges?
Do they sell Geckos?

JoeyB

**Mariss Freimanis** · 06-29-2008, 07:51 PM

I apologize for giving the impression the drive would be $29 in single quantities. That was a target and it turned out to be unrealistic because of non-technical realities. We are a manufacturing biz, not a sales or marketing oriented biz. As a consequence our office is not set up with phone banks, cubicles and salesmen. It is set up for the needs of a manufacturing company.

This reality sank in when we started to look at the consequences of processing a large volume of individual orders for small quantities of the cheap drives. First, it would overwhelm the processing of our mainstream drive orders. Second, hiring more people to handle the volume wouldn't work because the margin is too slim and we don't have the physical office space or experience to run a distribution type of biz.

I started this thread as a kind of blog. The most interesting threads to me on the zone are the ones where people go through the build of a machine from beginning to end. I get to see all that's involved; the challenges, setbacks, solutions and effort required to bring a concept from an idea to a running, finished machine.

The "cheap drive" idea had a distinct beginning so I thought it might be interesting to people to see how a project goes from idea to design to prototype to finished product. To be worthwhile, I was very open about the engineering decisions and compromises entailed in bringing a new drive to market. This was arrogant of me because I never considered the consequences of doing this.

In retrospect it was probably not such a good thing to do because I bungled it. The fault and responsibility for the disappointment some people have is entirely mine. The word "target" was interpreted as "promise" and that didn't occur to me. I didn't make clear what the intent of the thread was because I didn't know it myself. That was unfocused thinking on my part. Were I to do it again, I will keep things much closer to the vest. We will simply announce we have a new product and its price. People will not be misled that way.

Again, my apologies.

Mariss

**Teyber** · 06-29-2008, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by the4thseal

when can i buy some? i do not want to mis the 2 week period.

mariss please answer this question! i want to buy 6 in case i ever cnc a lathe.

**the4thseal** · 06-29-2008, 08:48 PM

mariss-
i am not upset ....... nor disappointed......i will be happy to buy them. i have enjoyed watching the process. you have not messed up. it is like making ,,sausage in the end it is soooooo good

**dansutula** · 06-29-2008, 09:21 PM

Mariss,
You need not apologize for anything, especially in lieu of your decision to honor the lowest cost / low quantity pricing for the 2-week intro period.

Perhaps your only mistake was naming the blog thread Cheap Drives, which seems to have lured all the CHEAPSKATES out of the woodwork. It seems they get a bit pissy when they have to pay fair price for something, even if it is a great value. The cheapskate is typically not short of money, they are just pained to part with it. And don’t worry about depriving the little guys, as most of us are willing to pay for value.

Although I will respect your decision, I will be disappointed (or rather, think it a damn shame) if your recent “mutiny on the web blog” experience has turned you off to the idea of chronicling future development projects, especially the unstoppable stepper project.

Keep the Faith!

**skullworks** · 06-29-2008, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Nash

( BIG Snip...)

Good will is damaged when a person feels they have been "strung along". Need I mention CNCBridges (well over 100,000 views in various threads) or the Xaser (over 11,000 views)?

Sincerely,
Mike Nash
who still doesn't own a Geckodrive (yet.) But who has bought a $0.99 (Buy it now) item off ebay shipped from Hong Kong for $3.38 and would do it again.

Yeah well mentioning 2 VaporWare offeres IS not the same as this as Gecko is a fully functional business shipping product daily. True the products which are the subject of this thread are still in beta - but thats when you find out the reality of the product. - This thread was launched back in January - Care to recall how much fuel (Gas, Diesel and Jet A) have gone up, how much shipping rates for some items, particularly international shipping has gone up just since January?

Not only that, you can expect other costs to continue to rise and forecasting that into your MSRP is an educated guess at best. Who wants to do business with a company that raises prices often - it makes it harder to forcast your own budget, yet with food, fuel and other costs we have to deal with this daily. How often does Gecko bump there prices on there product line... Not often.

People whine most about prices when it comes from there "fun money" - well skip the night out for the premium steak dinner and you have saved yourself the price difference, and maybe a pound or two off your wasteline.

As for me... I'm waiting on some G251's and then I hope we can get Mariss back to work again. I want some G380's...

**kiwibum** · 06-29-2008, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Teyber

mariss please answer this question! i want to buy 6 in case i ever cnc a lathe.

Stay subscribed to this thread and you will find out when they make a release statement same as everyone else. Then you have two weeks to put your order in, it's not a one hour lottery event. (chair)

**bobchiloquin** · 06-29-2008, 10:52 PM

I've been following this thread almost from the beginning, and was expecting to buy some drives for about $30. But now that I think about it, it might be a good idea to wait and see what happens after these first drives get out into the world. Will they still work as described, or will there be more revisions?

After looking at Gecko's web site, it looks like the cheapest drive is $114, so $61 is close to half off, and that does make these "cheaper".

Mariss, next time you uncage your gryo, make sure you have the PIGAs enabled. That way you can keep an eye on you progress and not crash into the stops.

Bob Hayes

**Mariss Freimanis** · 06-29-2008, 11:00 PM

The disappointment this has caused is very real. It makes no difference it was unintended; it is still my responsibility and my fault for not anticipating the consequences much earlier on. I'm seriously bummed by what my actions have caused.

I owe a little bit of background: I had a 50% equity in a larger company I helped found. I sold my equity and retired in 1999 at the age of 51. I started Geckodrive as a boutique business, something to do to fill my suddenly idle time.

I wanted to have a company with a human face, a company that treated people like they are human beings and not numbers on a sales chart. I wanted a company with a phone number and person on the other end of the line when you do call. If the call was for support, the person on the other end of the line would know how to solve a problem and take the time needed to do it. I wanted a company that stood behind and repaired the product they sold. I wanted a company that designed quality product and sold it at the lowest possible price.

Things got out of hand. I have never worked so hard in my life as in the past 9 years and I have enjoyed this time unlike any other period in my life. What helped was I didn't have to work to survive and prosper. Nothing was at risk so there were no financial worries to constipate things and make me second-guess on good decisions.

Things got out of hand. We now have 10 employees (5 added in the past year) and a company worth passing on to my son and daughter. I have an obligation to my employees, both family and the other people that chose to work for us. For my son and daughter it's like a bacon and egg breakfast, all in a days work for the hen, a lifetime commitment for the pig. They took a pass on the hen's role.:-)

I'm soon to be 60 and I intend to retire for real this time before I'm 62. My wife of 31 years, Jan, has put up with "this what was supposed to be a hobby" and has put her life in it too. I don't want to be here when I start drooling and have lost my sharp edge. I owe it her to have the last quarter of our lives to be as carefree, irresponsible and fun as it was in the beginning.

To that end the next year or so will be very busy. The G250/G251/G540 has been a troublesome and difficult design. It will be whipped into shape and produce well. Next up (like in 2 weeks) is the G320 successor, the G380. In preparation I started reviewing it last week and had forgotten just how much better it will be. Following is the G213V, a G203V with a built-in 4-quadrant unfoolable step pulse multiplier. It will eventually become our mainstream step motor drive. The G201 successor will be the G201CPLD which will use the G250 logic core. Last on the plate is the step motor servodrive. It's the hardest so it's last.

These things will replace our current products with new, CPLD based designs. The writing is on the wall for the G201, G210, G202, G212, G320 and G340 drives. Marcus was notified by our parts distributors (Avnet, Future, etc.) that TI and Fairchild are going to be announcing a "lifetime buy" on several key CD4000-series CMOS logic ICs. This is the kiss of death meaning no more will ever be manufactured after a certain date. We will buy-up a 2 year supply. After they are gone, no more of the above drives can ever be built. Its been a nice run.

Replacing them will be the G201CPLD, G203V, the G213V, the G250/G251 and the G380. All of them are modern designs that use no discrete logic ICs at all. I will be very busy in the next 12 or so months to make all this happen. After that, Jan and I are in Hawaii and I take up portrait and still-life oil painting again, something I left behind in 1970. I will still have a lab in case my mind refuses to shut off.

Marcus, Marissa and all the other good people we have working for us will carry on. Marcus and Marissa both appreciate the worth of the business model we have now and how well it works with the novel idea you treat people decently. What they will do and change will be entirely up to them because it will be theirs to do with as they best see fit. All I will do is call from time to time with a rambling, disjointed conversation about some new circuit that does some neat things and how they might want to replicate it there.

Mariss

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a bit of perspective

is there a package deal with the four drives and BOB interface?

Apology Declined!

Low Blow man.

wait your trun.

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Thread: Cheap drives?

a bit of perspective

is there a package deal with the four drives and BOB interface?

Apology Declined!

Low Blow man.

wait your trun.

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