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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Fanuc > GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts
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  1. #61
    Hi actually i'm stuck in changing a parameter 9921 that is for caaned cycles.In this parameter i should have to change the bit no 7 to 1 to start the canned cycles(G71 and G73) but it is not changing while in MDI,or write enable on.I have hardinge cobra 65 with 21t control.

  2. #62
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Hmm it seems any partial disclosure of options falls under copyright "fair use". Fair use wasn't tested until 2010, a few years after this thread started. Digitizing/scanning a manual falls under transformative fair use, as long as your not selling it and publishing the entire manual. See: references in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

  3. #63
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Information can not be copyrighted; the form in which information appears can. This applies to manuals, options etc.

  4. #64
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    As an FYI: Under EU law, All purchased equipment and software information including serial numbers, product keys and feature codes are considered personal and private information owned by the purchasing entity. Owners have all right to redistribute that information in any form. Companies have no right to use or restrict this information without the consent of the owners. This means anyone from the EU can provide anyone serial numbers, product keys and feature codes.

    Interesting how in the US we are still under the corporate (oligarchic) yoke of oppression; I thought we had a revolution to remove the crown's absolute and inconsistent application of power.

  5. #65
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Well said.
    In North America, law is largely influenced by lobbyists. Fanuc is by no means the only company to 'lock out' features that are present already. That method is for the benefit of the manufacturer, NOT the user. As to the legality of 'turning on' options, even lawyers find it a murky area.

  6. #66
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Well, we should clarify...

    Fanuc is no longer associated with GE.. Fanuc America is a private company along with others, its more like a franchise today.

    Since publishing purchasing codes/feature keys is legal in the EU, an EU site could be setup as a reference. Despite the legalities of having access to "the" information, it is still illegal (theft) to use features without purchase. Enforcement is an issue. The responsibility falls on the companies, Fanuc in this case, to ensure compliance for each fielded machine.

    Having said all that, I like Fanuc America's products and support. I can only recommend purchasing features to help them, and companies supporting their products, to stay in business.

  7. #67
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    "it is still illegal (theft) to use features without purchase" what is your legal basis for that statement? My information is different.

  8. #68
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    Dec 2003
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    24216

    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    The whole issue that caused Fanuc to start clamping down, was some time ago, someone published and distributed on the net, most of the 'proprietary' settings that turned on added features that are available to be paid for at the time of purchase of the system, or later purchase by the end user.
    These options are in the control, it usually just requires a setting of 1 bit of memory to turn them on. Some require some hardware as well.
    I may or may not have a copy.
    I have known some users to back up their system, and then 'experiment' by turning on random option 'bits' to see what transpires.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  9. #69
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Quote Originally Posted by memoryman View Post
    "it is still illegal (theft) to use features without purchase" what is your legal basis for that statement? My information is different.
    This is a complex issue, dependent on jurisdiction. In the EU, things you purchase, like license keys (intangible goods), MAC addresses on phones and computers, any kind of serial number is considered personal property. The manufacturer give up ownership to that information when the unit is sold. An EU citizen can elect not to share that information with anyone or conversely share with anyone and everyone if desired. Manufacturers who sold in the EU must have permission from the owners use that info internally or share the info with others. Additionally, EU right to forget laws forces manufacturers to remove any information from their system by the owner's request.

    In the US, they are considered copyrighted information and the copyright owner usually restricts sharing the key under license agreements. In some cases, the key or serial number is a proof of ownership. Using it without permission is fraud. I'm not sure how it works in Crown governments.

    Normally in all jurisdictions, using a unauthorized feature is considered "theft of services". But this falls into a legal grey area. If you bought a machine and the feature is already built-in, you may already own it. It really depends on the licensing (if any) on the software. It becomes increasingly difficult if the software is only upgradable by changing ROMs. Some argue because they are ROMs, it is part of the hardware and you should not be denied access to something you purchased and own. If a manufacturer wants $$$ for the feature, by some that is criminal extortion.

  10. #70
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryMzz View Post
    But this falls into a legal grey area. If you bought a machine and the feature is already built-in, you may already own it. It really depends on the licensing (if any) on the software.
    I always wondered about that, if you payed for and owned the system, What ever is inside should be yours, I would think.

    Especially if no agreement was ever signed?
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  11. #71
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    I agree that the issue is murky. Feature/option activation by software switches can be argued to be legal, but ultimately only the Supreme Court can decide.

  12. #72
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    The whole issue that caused Fanuc to start clamping down, was some time ago, someone published and distributed on the net, most of the 'proprietary' settings that turned on added features that are available to be paid for at the time of purchase of the system, or later purchase by the end user.
    These options are in the control, it usually just requires a setting of 1 bit of memory to turn them on. Some require some hardware as well.
    I may or may not have a copy.
    I have known some users to back up their system, and then 'experiment' by turning on random option 'bits' to see what transpires.
    Even better. Much of it had to do with a court case in the aftermath of the Toshiba scandal. The Russians had specified Kongsberg controllers on the machines and when inspected they were in "three axis" mode. But once delivered, the installing A/E flipped a parameter and now they were in 5 axis mode and had the five axis features necessary. It wasn't too long after that Fanuc started pass wording the options and now, they are like Okuma, if you don't pay for an option, it isn't there at all and has to be installed.

  13. #73
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Mitsubishi made a control (520AMR) that physically looked identical to the other 520/530 controls but had different hardware.
    Afaik, Fanuc's option activation has been compromised. If not, it will be. As to the legality of bypassing Fanuc, only a court decision regarding this can tell us whether it is legal.

  14. #74
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasR View Post
    Even better. Much of it had to do with a court case in the aftermath of the Toshiba scandal. The Russians had specified Kongsberg controllers on the machines and when inspected they were in "three axis" mode. But once delivered, the installing A/E flipped a parameter and now they were in 5 axis mode and had the five axis features necessary. It wasn't too long after that Fanuc started pass wording the options and now, they are like Okuma, if you don't pay for an option, it isn't there at all and has to be installed.
    I do have to say, FANUC support in the US is extremely helpful when we have an issue with an old OM system which doesn't have support contract on it. I've spent a large amount of time figuring out the undocumented, underlying logic behind some features. If manufacturers and machine builders lose staff, much of the hidden and undocumented information about the cnc systems will be lost and products will become unsupportable. Loss of talent and undocumented information will adversely impact economic viability to support older systems. Democratization of information about cnc software and industrial controllers becomes increasingly important in cases of waning support. Feature hiding does not provide the manufacturers, machine builders, users any benefit and cause frustrations and inadvertently damage reputations.

    The global push for right to repair legislation will also effect the industry, For example, try to get the electronic schematics for cnc controller hardware or bus control and messaging protocols. Most manufacturers do not provide them except to authorized repair service. Some services only provide the ability to swap boards. If a component is defective and boards are not available, the machine is down and may need replacement.

    A while back a group of programmers created LinuxCNC, an open source cnc and industrial controller software package. Open source software is another way of democratizing information. Today it's impossible to load LinuxCNC software on almost all commercial manufacturers' hardware due to poor documentation of electronic hardware, memory mapping, IO maps, control messaging, processors, and servo control interfaces. Right to repair legislation may force companies to release this information.

    Adopting LinuxCNC is not a panacea. It will require a lot of configuration and tuning normally performed and supported by machine builders. Additionally, some features and user interfaces are not seamlessly integrated making it cumbersome and buggy to use. It takes about a year to configure and tune software for a machine. Working with LinuxCNC exposes the true value provided by controller manufacturers and machine builders. Having said that, some commercial manufactures have adopted LinuxCNC. For example, tormach uses an in-house, customized version of linuxcnc on their products.

  15. #75
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Quote Originally Posted by memoryman View Post
    Mitsubishi made a control (520AMR) that physically looked identical to the other 520/530 controls but had different hardware.
    Afaik, Fanuc's option activation has been compromised. If not, it will be. As to the legality of bypassing Fanuc, only a court decision regarding this can tell us whether it is legal.
    Yes ,in the old controllers ,indeed was compromised because of people that put their hands in some usefull nformation and made a lot of money activating options to customers.
    Also i do not know why you are so sure that the option system will be compromised in the future too,this will be very closed monitor and take actions.
    When you purchase a machine,you pay "X"amount of money that represent MTB+Fanuc work and years of experince and you get what you paied.Now why you should have a full option machine ,that will make a lot more money for you becasue of complexity of your jobs you can do with it and not paying to Fanuc or MTB?Why you should try to bypass the normal way ?I know many will say ,man ,it is expensive,but doing more money with your machine with more functions, will be only a win to you?You do not pay only the activation of that functions but also the expereince behind these and all the time spend to make it work and study from MTB or Fanuc.
    Why if Fanuc is starting a very close monitoring process for all users that activate options ilegally and do not suport them any more in any case and make an understanding with MTB also not to suport that customers with any parts in the future?But ,yes,anyone is open to do what they want with their machine,it is in their backyard,nobody can take it out from your factory.You know that every controller that goes from Fanuc to a MTB has a data sheet with all options installed on the time it is purchased and it will be easy to monitor ,when going to do a work on site to see if that data sheet has the same options or not and can take actions.
    Can be many ways to stop this unfair situation that should have a both side win.
    My 2 cents on this

  16. #76
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    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    Quote Originally Posted by zavateandu View Post
    You know that every controller that goes from Fanuc to a MTB has a data sheet with all options installed on the time it is purchased and it will be easy to monitor ,when going to do a work on site to see if that data sheet has the same options or not and can take actions.
    I have a Leadwell from the late '80s. I've ask FANUC in US, they do not have the sheet with options for my controller. Since Leadwell TW doesn't have the build sheets for older machines, the only source I have is old manuals. There is one guy in TW that allegedly has the old build sheets, but he never replied to my emails.

    My personal opinion, anyone using '80s cnc controllers should be supported and sponsored (from mfgs' mkting budget) as a testament to the controllers' durability.

  17. #77
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    1379

    Re: GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    "this will be very closed monitor and take actions." What would the (legal) action be?

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