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  1. #1
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    Haas discounts

    I noticed that Haas is currently offering a Pre-Westec discount of 7.5%. Does anyone know if this is a common practice for the big trade shows? I am particularly wondering about IMTS. I am considering buying a Mini Mill but was planning on doing it later in the year. Perhaps in and around the big show in Chicago.

  2. #2
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    Did you see the other thread about Haas discounts? I don't know if your question was answered there.

    I think it is possible to be fairly confident some discount, or a special package deal on particular machines, will happen around the time of all the major shows.

    Incidentally, if you spend a bunch of time looking at the threads in the Haas Mills forum you will see several dealing with the MiniMill. My opinion is that it is underpowered and too slow and the Super MiniMill offers much more bang for your buck.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  3. #3
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    Yes I have read a great deal regarding the Mini Mill on this and other forums. I am dealing with a budget issue though so as of right now I am leaning toward the regular mini and not the super. However, I am trying to expand that budget so that the super and the Sharp super are in the running.

  4. #4
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    Be sure that you keep the Z travel in mind when considering that Mini. A standard, 6" vise with a part in it can get pretty tall. A 1/2" drill bit can get pretty long. Combine the two and getting up and over the part can be close. You may spend the rest of eternity buying stubby drills for every hole you drill.
    Greg

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    Be sure that you keep the Z travel in mind when considering that Mini. A standard, 6" vise with a part in it can get pretty tall. A 1/2" drill bit can get pretty long. Combine the two and getting up and over the part can be close. You may spend the rest of eternity buying stubby drills for every hole you drill.

    Point well taken. The place where I used to work had 3 Mini's while I was there and the limited Z travel was a concern.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    Be sure that you keep the Z travel in mind when considering that Mini......
    My machine of preference, best bang for buck and most parts per hour per square foot of floor space is a Super MiniMill with the 4" lift to the Z axis. The travel is the same b ut you do not have a lost motion due to vises raising the part two or three inches above the lower Z limit. I will admit you are restricted to small parts.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    My machine of preference, best bang for buck and most parts per hour per square foot of floor space is a Super MiniMill with the 4" lift to the Z axis.
    I don't disagree but I'm going to bounce something off of you (since I seem to learn so much from these discussions):

    I agree with the Super Mini--especially for aluminum parts. I know of a shop that is actually running small Inconel parts in a regular Mini. He has it set up with dedicated coolant, etc.

    But my view on the Mini and Super Mini is as a second machine to something like a VF-2 or VF-4. This is the logic:

    Many small parts will fit in a Mini. If you're in production and you have a part that will fit in the small machine, put it there.

    But larger parts require the larger envelope. So for a 'first' or 'only' machine, push for a VF-2. When production outgrows the VF-2, add a Mini or Super Mini as an inexpensive way to free up the larger machine and double your output for very little additional floor space.

    The base model VF-2 is $48K. The Mini is $31K. But the Mini needs a coolant pump, the top cover and at least to consider the extended Z. At that point, the price is creeping up to $35-36K. It's obviously more efficient for space and power.

    Of course this all depends on the use. If the purpose of the machine is tiny RC boat parts or medical parts or other exclusively small parts, the Mini makes absolute sense.

    What your thoughts, Geof?
    Greg

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    I don't disagree but I'm going to bounce something off of you (since I seem to learn so much from these discussions): ......etc, etc.....What your thoughts, Geof?
    All the etc makes perfectly good sense and two/three years ago I would have totally agreed, but let me give a bit of background.

    We make about 250 or so different parts, mostly aluminum, but some leaded steel. With the exception of some parts in 1/8" plate that are about 11" x 12", and stainless tube that we finish on both ends, everything is small enough to fit in a 1 pint beer mug; most parts are made from 2" or 2-1/4" 6061 round bar. We have a A HL1 and HL1 Big Bore that spend their time popping out aluminum 'hockey pucks' (smaller dia., and thicker than the real thing) which get holes bored through both the length and diameter and sometimes holes tapped.

    When I first moved into CNC I bought a HL1 and a VF0, the MiniMill was not available in early 2000. Most parts needed two operations in the VF0, in vises with custom jaws to grip the diameter or fixture jaws with pins to locate in holes from a previous operation. We could fit two Kurt 688 vises in the VF0 and do four parts at a time; so we where not using the full spatial capacity of the machine most of the time.

    When the MiniMills came out we bought two of them within six months of each other. These could just accommodate the two vises so now in a floor space not much bigger than a VF0 and at a price certainly not twice the VF0 price we had about twice the production; not quite twice, the Minis are 6000 rpm against 7500 and the rapids slower. But they produced more parts per dollar purchase price and square foot occupied than the VF0.

    Around six months later we bought a Super MiniMill when it was introduced; compared to the standard MiniMill it was night and day. 10000rpm, 1200ipm rapids and a high speed toolchanger. Cycle times dropped by up to 60% when parts where done on the Super MiniMill, and I was hooked.

    But the limited Z clearance was a problem so when we needed to get another machine I did some measuring and figuring, and decided a Super with the raised Z was a good idea because we had started using a rotary fixture for some parts on the VF0; my figuring told me I could squeeze a HRT210 into ther Super Mini with the raised Z. Fortunately I was correct, and if you check back on some threads I started, and other posts, I have put up a whole bunch of pictures of this setup.

    But then another thing reared its head. Business was booming (you might have come to this conclusion by now) and our batch volumes where going up; this introduced a problem in scheduling and lead time. Because nearly all the parts needed two mill operations we had difficulty meeting sudden increases in demand. Doubling the batch size doubled the time from starting a run, to when the first part could go out for anodizing; everything had to go through the first operation before the setup was changed to the second operation.

    So, when we decided more machine capacity was needed the focus was moved, and we went for a VF2; 10000rpm, 1000ipm rapids, and room for three Kurt double lock vises!! Now we had the custom jaws for gripping round parts in the back jaw set, and in the front the fixture plates with alignment pins. Now the first part ready for anodizing came off within minutes of a setup being completed. And I was hooked again...on a different hook.

    The VF2, like the VF0 had a 20 tool changer and we started to develop programme groups for the two machines so that we could leave tools in the changers, bring up a new program, load the offsets from a separate program (because the vises never moved everything was calibrated) and push the green button.

    Catastrophe!!! The carousel toolchanger allowed chips to get on the tool tapers so all h***l broke loose on precision; back to square one on leaving tools in the changer unused, tools are now removed but kept isolated so setups are a bit longer. This was coupled with the poor grip of the fingers in the changer allowing the tool to shift slightly. The VF0 suffered spindle damage when it did not pick up a tool correctly and it came loose as it hit the part.

    The solution to both these problems was simple; the next two machines where VF2s with Side Mount Toolchangers and at this point it seemed we had reached the ultimate production system....But, the best laid plans of men and computer human interface devices often crash; we were facing serious price pressure. We export worlwide, and unfortunately for us the Canadian dollar was climbing in value; this meant our income was dropping even with increasing sales. A bit of a breather came when some employees left and we looked at how to maintain or increase production without replacing them.

    The answer is in a couple of threads I started showing the rotary fixtures I have developed that permit finishing operations on three sides of a part. Now the hockey pucks come off the lathe, go into a rotary fixture, and come out ready for anodizing in a single fixturing. Two machine loadings are no longer needed, the total cycle time has gone up giving the operator time to tend two machines and do some deburring without being rushed, but the per part time has dropped.

    And the Rotary Fixtures can fit into a Super MiniMill with a raised Z axis so I don't need to buy any more VF2s. Which is why I now say the raised Z Super Mini is the best bang for the buck.

    And the thing that really burns my a*** is that all this improvement in productivity has just allowed us to stand still; we have absorbed a 60% increase in the value of the Canadian dollar by improving our efficiency so our net income has stayed more or less constant. But at least we stayed in business, many Canadian companies have not.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  9. #9
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    That was a lengthy but very worthwhile story. Thank you for taking the time to share...really.

    With the perspective of your business, I agree on your path. Again, I guess it depends on the parts you make. Since I'm not entirely sure of what my product lines are going to be, I wanted the envelope of the VF-2.

    And I ended up with a T5C (2 axis rotary with the HRT210 mated to a 5C indexer). That's going to give me single-setup, multi-axis finishing of one particular product line.

    We had this discussion at my 'day job.' My buddy described it as, "95% of our parts would fit in a shoe-box." I'm still concerned about the other 5%.

    It must have been exciting going through all of that sudden growth. Your cycle time savings are the stuff that Haas throws around but we rarely get to see in action.
    Greg

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    ....." I'm still concerned about the other 5%........
    Be careful here, you are well down the 'diminishing returns' curve. Do you read business magazines that give advise for entrepreneurs? I read an article once about 'divorcing' your 5% lowest profitability customers; just simply don't accept their orders. Slightly silly advise I thought, because then there would be a different 5% created so you 'divorce' yourself into oblivion.

    But the principle has some merit applied a different way; farm "the other 5%" out. It is not worth your money or time to have the capacity taking up floor space if you only use it 5% of the time.

    Part of the motivation for taking the time was to show how "the best machine" for the job can evolve as a business evolves. It was 'interesting' managing both the growth and the change in dollar value.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  11. #11
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    You do make a very good point there, Geof. In my market however (motorcycles), that 5% could very well be tooling to make the other 95% of my products. If I need to machine a stamping die for a skid plate, I have the space. If I had to farm that out, small changes after the die was made, could become prohibitively expensive. I have to recover those costs in the parts. That makes the product unfeasible--giving me fewer products. Suddenly, I'm a small guy, making small parts and not really serving the market I set out to tackle.

    So the 5% capacity enables the rest. I've already run out of Y travel a couple of times and wished I had the VF-2YT.

    I also made the investment in a bank of dual-station Chick vises so the entire table can be covered in parts. That enables more unattended production time where the operator (me--for now) can be free to run other machines in the work cell (changing tools & parts on the TL-1, cutting raw stock on the band saw, deburring, etc).

    I think this is a value-added discussion though. Anybody considering the size of machine to buy has to consider which path they're going to take and what machine will be necessary to do it. And I'm learning a lot from you.
    Greg

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    You do make a very good point there, Geof. In my market however (motorcycles), that 5% could very well be tooling to make the other 95% of my products...
    You have thrown a factor in here that enters my mind in a different manner; this 5% capacity for tooling is included in the 95%. That doesn't make sense out that way but I think you know what I mean; having the ability to make your own specialized tooling is as important as having the ability to make your product. You will never start up if you have to contract out your tooling. In a sense you need to get machines oriented toward the tooling manufacture, which can also do the production as a by-product. Remember, my view is biased because I had an established business/product when I started into CNC. Your comment about value-added discussion is very pertinent, and you have brought home to me a distinct flaw in my thinking; I need to remember different starting points. The learning is bi-directional.

    I didn't get Chick vises but have innumerable Kurts; I totalled up all my stuff in response to a query a while back and it was something like fifteen single and twelve double. It is incredible sometimes how much money you need to spend in addition to the machine cost.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  13. #13
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    I too am enjoying the discussion. I have one prospect in particular that I beleive I have a 99% chance of getting some work from. Their work rarely exceeds 1" in total thickness. However the point about tool length is serious because a fair number of their parts have bearing bores ranging for 1/2" - 2" in diameter. The other concern I have is the tool changers capacity. 10 tools is not alot and I think it would be easy to have a need for more.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by katiebo View Post
    .... The other concern I have is the tool changers capacity. 10 tools is not alot and I think it would be easy to have a need for more.
    Just waiyt.

    There is a thread with some comment about a Side Mount toolchanger on the Super MiniMill I think, will be introduced at Westec; 16 tool capacity or more.

    I wish I had know three months ago when I ordered my latest SMM.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  15. #15
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    I read that thread also. I spoke to my Haas salesman last Friday and he wasn't sure of the introduction date. I hope it will be available on regular Mini as well.

  16. #16
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    Talked to my Haas rep today he just returned from the Factory, Haas is not adding a side mount to the Mini Mill line, what they are doing is making a new machine that is mix from a Super Mini to a VF-2. It will be a 10K standard 20-24 side mount tool changer built on the foot print of a Mini Mill, should be at WESTEC!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by timan View Post
    .....a new machine that is mix from a Super Mini to a VF-2.... built on the foot print of a Mini Mill, should be at WESTEC!
    I am tempted to blow a few hundred bucks and go look at it; 30 inches of X travel in the foot print of a Mini will be quite a feat.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  18. #18
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    Rep just called and it will be at Westec, he thought it was 25" of X travel? I too may have to go take a look!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by timan View Post
    Rep just called and it will be at Westec, he thought it was 25" of X travel? I too may have to go take a look!
    If you do go, please take some photos and post them. Increased travels and greater tool capacity would probably get me to jump up to the Super Mini.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by timan View Post
    Rep just called and it will be at Westec, he thought it was 25" of X travel? I too may have to go take a look!
    Very interesting.

    I just checked the dates; March 31 - April 3. Decisions, decisions.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

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