[mc-motorsports]

Just wondering... I know there is some real talent surfing this forum. Who know's anything about hydrogen powered vehicles? I mean a DIY conversion...

I own a supercharged Mustang GT, pass anything but a gas station. With the gears and the supercharger, gas milage went from 20 down to 12 MPG:drowning:

A quick google search shows people using low voltage DC and misc. materials for electrodes to seperate the hydrogen and oxygen from tap water, simple concept.

But what would it take to power a car or motorcycle using the same basic principals? Figured somebody here has to be experimenting with something, or may already may be utilizing hydrogen to power a generator, go-cart, motorcycle or even a car?

[Crevice Reamer]

These are all good questions and a timely topic. I hope to see you get some answers. Thanks for bringing it up.

CR.

[BigMike4u]

Has anybody looked into this idea? I'm thinking strongly about trying it.

http://runyourcarwithwater.com/

Mike

[Crevice Reamer]

As far as I can determine, this and others like it are scams. Rachel DOES have nice legs though!

CR.

[Geof]

Go through the threads in the Global Warming Forum. This farce has been discussed there.

[keltic88]

There has been a number of people using "Brown's Gas" over at otherpower.com forums (fieldlines.com) - search for teckerd in the diaries. He's been experimenting with his truck.

Cheers,
Red

[mc-motorsports]

That is the exact video that caught my attention a year ago or so.

So what's a Farce?

And yea, I can save you some money... Drop a couple of SS bolts in a can of water, close together but seperated and insulated from one another, add a little salt, 12v and it'll bubble off hydrogen gas. Put a tube in the top, hook that into your intake, and some people swear it will increase your gas milage.

But that's not what I'm asking about. It may not be possible to run a conventional engine on Hydrogen, may be too hot for the pistons, valve timing may have to be changed, maybe the spark plugs and gasoline timing settings won't work???

Who know's what? I'm sure someone here has been playing around and knows something.

And I'm not really worried about global warming. Let's just get rid of all the cows and call it a day, 40% of the problem solved, eat chicken... LOL! Damn methane creating creatures. Either that or make methane generators out of cow crap like they do in 3rd world countries.

[Geof]

[QUOTE=mc-motorsports;464983....But that's not what I'm asking about. It may not be possible to run a conventional engine on Hydrogen, may be too hot for the pistons, valve timing may have to be changed, maybe the spark plugs and gasoline timing settings won't work???...[/QUOTE]

Why don't you Google 'BMW hydrogen power' they make a dual fuel car that will run on hydrogen or gasoline so obviously the same valve timing, pistons, sparl plugs and ignition timing can work. But it is still a farce.

[mc-motorsports]

Why don't you Google 'BMW hydrogen power' they make a dual fuel car that will run on hydrogen or gasoline so obviously the same valve timing, pistons, sparl plugs and ignition timing can work. But it is still a farce.

Define "farce", sorry, I'm not from Canada. (guessing it's negative)

And a google search turned up nothing. And you shouldn't take things for granted. Ignition timing is easily changed within the ECU. valve timing can be controlled using what Honda calls VTECH, simple yet effective concept, many have tried, Honda was the first to get it right, search patents back to the 70's, funny stuff. And it doesn't mean the pistons in my truck or Mustang are the same material as the pistons in that BMW. And I wouldn't expect BMW to lay out thier recipie.

BTW, hydrogen cars have been around for a while. They did make a car that runs off of pure water, the generator costs $80K US at the time the car was built. May not be feesable at this time, not impossible. I was wondering who whas experimenting and if anyone had luck. I asked here because there are quite a few talented individuals and I wouldn't expect a CNCZoner to drop a couple of bolts in a coffee can and zip tie it to the radiator support.

That is all.

[Geof]

....And a google search turned up nothing...

I don't quite know how you Google but when I use 'bmw hydrogen power' Google comes up with "about 199,000 in 0.07 seconds. Here is one of them:
http://www.alternative-energy-news.i...-7-production/

If you want to get a definition of farce go to dictionary.com or something like that.

You cannot run a car off pure water, that is plain simple nonsense, water is non-combustible. It is possible to electrolyse water to obtain hydrogen then use the hydrogen to run a car but on an efficiency basis it is one of the most idiotic schemes going. You need an energy source to generate the electricity that is used to do the electrolysis and during the electricity generation at least 60% of the energy is lost as waste heat. Then during the electrolysis something like 20% of the energy is again lost as waste heat. Finally when the hydrogen is used in an internal combustion engine at least 70% is lost as waste heat. When you take the overall efficiency; 0.4 for electricity generation, 0.8 for electrolysis and 0.3 for internal combustion your overall efficiency is 0.096. In other words less than 10% of your original energy is available to propel the vehicle.

[mc-motorsports]

I don't quite know how you Google but when I use 'bmw hydrogen power' Google comes up with "about 199,000 in 0.07 seconds. Here is one of them:
http://www.alternative-energy-news.i...-7-production/

If you want to get a definition of farce go to dictionary.com or something like that.

You cannot run a car off pure water, that is plain simple nonsense, water is non-combustible. It is possible to electrolyse water to obtain hydrogen then use the hydrogen to run a car but on an efficiency basis it is one of the most idiotic schemes going. You need an energy source to generate the electricity that is used to do the electrolysis and during the electricity generation at least 60% of the energy is lost as waste heat. Then during the electrolysis something like 20% of the energy is again lost as waste heat. Finally when the hydrogen is used in an internal combustion engine at least 70% is lost as waste heat. When you take the overall efficiency; 0.4 for electricity generation, 0.8 for electrolysis and 0.3 for internal combustion your overall efficiency is 0.096. In other words less than 10% of your original energy is available to propel the vehicle.

Your google link doesn't tell me much of anything that I'm looking for, just like I stated above. I did not say that there was no information on the BMW hydrogen engines, there is about enough information in that article to satisfy a housewife.

And I never said you can run a car off of plain water. You may have missed the part about the hydrogen generator, which would be the component responsible for the electrolysis process of seperating the hydrogen and oxygen.

How efficient is a gasoline engine? I'll look it up and post on it tomorrow if you want. We studied gasoline engines in great detail back in school. I still have the technical manuals if I can find them. I'm not going to rattle number off my head so someone can google it and scream that my memory is off. But I will say not very efficient at all, along the lines of what your claiming for the hydrogen generator.

Then concider that oil has to be pumped out of the ground using one of a few processess, shipped half way around the world, refined at one of our few remaining oil refinerys, shipped to local gas stations AND THEN we can discuss the efficiency of the gasoline internal combustion engine in terms of hydrocarbon based fuels. Thermal efficieny is Work supplied divided by heat applied. And it generally takes .4lbs/hr of hydrocarbon based fuel to generate 1 hp. From start to finish, how efficient is that process?

All that being said, I don't think a hydrogen generator powered vehicle is out of the question. Plus who cares how efficient it is, I get water for free, gasoline costs $4.05 a gallon. I would run my car on milk if I could, it would be cheaper. This is the whole point of this thread.

Hopefully we can get back on track.

MC

[mc-motorsports]

There has been a number of people using "Brown's Gas" over at otherpower.com forums (fieldlines.com) - search for teckerd in the diaries. He's been experimenting with his truck.

Cheers,
Red

Can't really find anything. If you google search the website, there are a couple of dead links that looked very interesting. It must be a conspiracy with the oil companies...lol!

[mc-motorsports]

Ok, hows about a hydrogen powered torch? Anyone done it yet? And if not, I have idea's... Would need an electrical engineer or atleast someone to design a couple of circuts to control a fuel pump that would pressurize the gas and possibly turn the current on and off to control the electolysis based on tank pressure.

Don't think too hard, if someone can help with the electronics and anyone would be interested to see if it works, I'll draw a pretty picture of what is in my head <===scary!

I'm more interested in running an engine off of hydrogen, but lets start simple.

I am a certified welder, I own a small machine shop and I'm a motor head at heart. I probably have most of what I would need just laying around, I'm just not an electrical engineer.

Yay, or nay?

[keltic88]

If I remember right, hydrogen will embrittle the metals - especially steel.
Here's a link to the wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement.

So, I'm thinking you would have to have something other than steel in your engine -
Ceramics?

Cheers & Good luck,
Red

[Geof]

....You may have missed the part about the hydrogen generator, which would be the component responsible for the electrolysis process of seperating the hydrogen and oxygen.....

.....All that being said, I don't think a hydrogen generator powered vehicle is out of the question. Plus who cares how efficient it is, I get water for free, gasoline costs $4.05 a gallon.....MC

I did not miss the hydrogen generator; that is the device that electrolyses the water to generate hydrogen and oxygen

This process requires electrical energy and when the hydrogen generator is installed on the vehicle running from the vehicle electrical system the original source of the electrical energy is the energy in the gasoline.

This is why I say it is a farce; these systems do not replace gasoline consumption they just recirculate some of the energy from the gasoline into electrical energy, then into hydrogen which is burnt in the engine along with the gasoline. They do not add any energy, they do not improve efficiency, in fact they recue efficiency.

[Crevice Reamer]

Stock automobile engines CAN be made to run on hydrogen--albeit at reduced power. Just as engines can run on natural gas--They can run on hydrogen gas. Hydrogen CAN be produced cheaply at home through electrolysis by solar power.

The DIY stumbling block has always been (and continues to be) the storage both of the produced hydrogen at home and in the CAR.

Pie in the Sky Brown gas scams do not address this real problem. Find a solution for easy DIY portable storage of the volatile hydrogen and you may HAVE something.

CR.

[mc-motorsports]

Stock automobile engines CAN be made to run on hydrogen--albeit at reduced power. Just as engines can run on natural gas--They can run on hydrogen gas. Hydrogen CAN be produced cheaply at home through electrolysis by solar power.

The DIY stumbling block has always been (and continues to be) the storage both of the produced hydrogen at home and in the CAR.

Pie in the Sky Brown gas scams do not address this real problem. Find a solution for easy DIY portable storage of the volatile hydrogen and you may HAVE something.

CR.

I live in NE Ohio, may as well live in England, always cloudy here so that puts me out as far as solar. Plus I honestly don't have time to try to convert a car myself.

BUT, I am interested in building a hydrogen torch just for fun. And I wouldn't mind converting my lawn mower, smaller scale, plus it cost me $10 to mow my lawn today. Just not looking to re-invent the wheel, I was hoping others would share thier idea's, mistakes, success stories and or short comings. Something to think about, gasoline is only going to get more expensive.

And I totally realize that the amount of energy stored and available from water is far less than a hydrocarbon based fuel and although the amount of energy returned would be much less, it would cost less. Another thing is natural gas prices! It's a nice thought to be able to run a forced air furnace off of hydrogen.

Plus "inverter technology" has made welders SO MUCH smaller and more effiecient. Couldn't that technology be used to more effieciently release hydrogen energy throught the electolysis process? What if you used a $300 inverter type TIG welder from ebay as a power source? May be thinking in the wrong direction.

MC

[mc-motorsports]

If I remember right, hydrogen will embrittle the metals - especially steel.
Here's a link to the wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement.

So, I'm thinking you would have to have something other than steel in your engine -
Ceramics?

Cheers & Good luck,
Red

As far as storage tanks, I know you can't use aluminium. What about SS? Would it effect the chromium oxides? I know that SS electrodes will last the longest but will also corrode during electolysis. But would a SS storage tank be effected?

[Geof]

Why are you wanting to "re-invent the wheel"; here from Wikipedia [edit] Hydrogen
See also: Oxyhydrogen
Hydrogen has a clean flame and is good for use on aluminium. It can be used at a higher pressure than acetylene and is therefore useful for underwater welding and cutting. It is a good type of flame to use when heating much material. The flame temperature is high, about 2,000 °C for hydrogen gas in air at atmospheric pressure,[4] and up to 2800 °C when pre-mixed in a 2:1 ratio with pure oxygen (oxyhydrogen).

For some oxyhydrogen torches the oxygen and hydrogen are produced by electrolysis of water in an apparatus which is connected directly to the torch. Types of this sort of torch:

The oxygen and the hydrogen are led off the electrolysis cell separately and are fed into the two gas connections of an ordinary oxy-gas torch. This happens in the water torch, which is sometimes used in small torches used in making jewelry and electronics.
The oxygen and hydrogen are drawn mixed from the electrolysis cell and are led mixed into a special torch designed to prevent flashback. See oxyhydrogen.

For electrolysing water to generate hydrogen and oxygen it is possible to improve the rate at which it is done with a particuler electrode are in the electrolysis cell; this can be done with catalysts or by pulsing the electric supply. But this does not alter the amount of energy needed to perform the electrolysis. And you always get back less energy than was used for the electrolysis when you burn the hydrogen and oxygen in an engine or a fuel cell. If you have a solar setup so that your electricity is "free" (It isn't because you have to pay the the solar cells) then you may be ahead. But if your hydrogen is generated from a vehicle electrical system it is totally pointless because you are burning gasoline to make the electricity to make the hydrogen.

Hydrogen is not a source of energy, hydrogen has to be made using energy from another source; many times it is simply more efficient to use the source of energy directly.

[mc-motorsports]

One question. With todays technology, is it possible to release more energy than what has to be put in as far as electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen?

Plus, in some situations such as a torch, convience would out weigh efficiency.

And no, I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, and hydrogen torches may be available commerically, it would just be nice to share DIY info. Why did I supercharge my GT? I could have bought a 03-04 Cobra. Hell, I even used all the parts off a 03 Cobra and had to machine and fabricate the manifold. But why? Because I can. Don't read too far into what I'm asking. I think you'll understand where I'm coming from after you realize I'm looking at more of a hobby level. BUT, I was hoping the hobby shop hydrogen experiments may lead to a DIY conversion of full function at a later date (not nessessarily me and I'm not intending to profit by producing product or selling info). Possibly wishfull thinking. Something has to change. As our country is today, we depend upon fossil fuels to live, let alone support an economy.

MC