[merl]

It's hard to tell from the picture but, they look like they were machined from a solid (very poorly) and then probably powder paint finished.
If they were die cast then they must have had some post cast machining to end up looking like this.
Ther is no way thet the die could be functioning and produce parts like this.
Even with lamination, cold fills and explosions in the part the die set would have to be smoother than this appears to be, just to eject the part.
Also if everyone who is so certain these are die cast could point to the ejector pin pionts for me, because I can see were they should be but, there are none.
I would think anything this poorly done would show the pin marks too.
By looking at the part I can see just the way I would have done them in a mill, probably ten or twenty at a time in our H400 Mazak (made in the US, instaled, serviced and operated by US citizens, using tooling that is made in the US sold and supplied by a US company and a local salesman that has been their rep for almost twenty years)
I would be happy to make them for $2. ea. on quantities less then 1000 pcs/mo. any more then that can be discused.
What I think is most likely is that these parts were made by some "hobby machinist" in the basement( probably the guy that owns the store) and because that person knows so little about the profession this is what you end up with.
I wouldn't give you a bent penny for those parts and I don't care were they are made.
Bigotry and irrational political ranting is why I no longer go on RFQ .com I hope I don't have to make that same choice here. Whare is the moderator on this thread?

[Barry_ward]

Yup. That part might have been made in China. Ningbo, China to take a closer guess. There are some high quality metal oriented factories in Ningbo and surrounding areas (and some crappy ones too), just like Cleveland...

Joesz,
How did you determine the surface finish of that part? The photo is poor. Yes there is a little blotchy discoloration that might indicate that the part might have been cooled in water or sanded with 50 grit, or jack hammered..

But since we know that it is die-cast (molded) from the small size and uniform parting line, the surface is very likely very good, even if the alloy is not. The metal cools at the surface of the mold first, creating a skin. The mold surface, and the surface that is reflected in the finsihed part must be highly polished, or the part won't eject from the mold.

I'm also gusseing that everything that you have accomplished in your life has been the result of hard labor and an exhaustive get 'er done attitude; that you don't like management, including sentence management in the form of delineated paragraphs of text.

Some of us here on CNC zone actually like what we do and are capable of stepping up to any challenge wether it be building our own machines, our own businesses or helping build our company's teams. We believe that competition is healthy and for the most part we are here trying to learn and to help others by teaching them what we've learned.

One thing that I've learned in 35 years of product design and manufacturing is that you have to have an open mind.

I've personally been traveling to China for over 15 years and I've witnessed the slow change over from communist owned factories to factories that are owned by the former employees or outsiders like the US, Japan and Taiwanese (virtually every Chinese government owned factory has failed at this point)

I have never ever seen prisioners as workers, (I've been to about 100 different factories) and as of the last 6 or 8 years, it's the norm to see workers looking to improve themselves by moving to better jobs with better pay and better working conditions. China is now all about capitolism.

Chinese Quality:
Outside factories that set up their plants in China (or sub-contract existing factories) control their quality just like they did before moving there. Companies such as "the Big-Box stores" that buy containers of junk based on price with no idea what of quality is or how to control it, or even police it, are likely on what you base your generaizations about "Chinese Quality"

The Chinese People:
Are just trying to make a better life for their families. They work harder than most (other country's common workers) and are honest, friendly and well educated.

The Chinese Government:
Has it's share of problems, but it too must continue to change to meet the needs of it's people. Even several years ago (before the Oylimpics bias) they were working on environmental issues. They still are. They are not going to stop the influx of money from anywhere to shut down factories - so like any other govennment, the change is slow. Yes they F**K up. jusk ask the Dali Lama, so do we, just ask the Ameican Indians, or many of our soldiers...

The Part:
Take a look at the same part from the same mfg in some other photos

http://www.poncinihobbies.com/produc...tt8467slvr.htm

http://secure.hobbyzone.com/catalog/...T8467SLVR.html

http://www.killerhobbies.com/items/l...lvr-detail.htm

One good photo is worth a zilliion bad forum posts...

Try to take it easy. Make a part. Have a beer.
Best regards to all - wherever you are, or are working...

Barry

[dertsap]

it's as you said the picture quality is poor , my original reaction was that they used the wrong or a very agressive media for tumbling , after looking at the last set of pictures i definitely believe they over did it on the tumbling on the blue anodized part . in the other sets of pictures the coated parts are much smoother looking , still hard to tell from the pics if they are cast then machined and polished or just machined from solid

[Barry_ward]

Perhaps you are correct.
Perhaps not.
It looks like just a crappy photo with a blue tint

B

[inflateable]

Make a part. Have a beer.


Barry

Just as long as you do it in that order...:cheers:

[tortak]

I would do these parts out of a strip of aluminum, do one side and flip them over into some jaws made up with the outside shape and do the other side. I Would do as many as would fit into a 6" vise.

[fuzzyracing1967]

Don't mean to see this thread highjacked again but a quick question for those who know.I understand the injection molding and sand casting (well the way it was done years ago,making pattern and all that).But was wondering how exsactly die cast works and where dos'e investment casting fit in there? We do mostly sand cast parts,(old foundry town and all),hell we have patterns from the teens!

on another note
Make a part. Have a beer.

Barry

Just as long as you do it in that order... :cheers:


Just as long as your done for the day would be better,and yes leaving the shop at 9:00 am still counts as being done mmmm didn't some one have a song about it being 5:00 somewhere:wave:

[Geof]

....was wondering how exsactly die cast works and where dos'e investment casting fit in there?....

Die casting is more or less the metal casting equivalent of injection molding. A steel or cast iron mold (die) is used and the molten metal is poured in for gravity die casting, forced in under pressure for pressure die casting and sucked in by a vacuum for vacuum diecasting, of course vacuum diecasting is really a form of pressure die casting.

Investment casting is where you have a wax model of what will be cast. This is dipped in a clay slurry and dried until a coating builds up. Then it is fired to cure the clay and make a ceramic shell, and at the same time the wax melts out. Then the molten metal is poured into the ceramic shell. This is also called lost wax casting.

There is a similar technicure called lost foam casting where the model is made out of styrofoam. This is packed in mold sand and when the molten metal is poured in it burns the styrofoam away.

And I realise it is possible the parts that are the subject of this thread may have been lost foam cast. Sometimes the styrofoam models are made in a cheap mold and that would account for the mold line on the part. Lost foam also gives a sort of dimpled surface from the texture of the styrofoam.

Obviousl I have skimmed over things quickly here but if you take some of the terms and Google you will find more information.

[fuzzyracing1967]

Thanks Geof that answered my question fine,all these years only been in a foundry a hand full of times and that was as costomer.I'll leave the casting up to them and I'll just do the machining .

[djnbig]

No worries on the added question Fuzzy, It was great to see the explanation to your question.

Wow, look what my little thread turned in to. Thanks to most all who replied.


Here is a different manufacturer of the same type of parts that might bring some more solid answers.

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2897

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2896

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2883

These parts range in size, from 10mm and up.



Here's some of their larger scale suff that I would assume is all machined? Or would they cast this stuff too ?

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2641

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2649

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2678

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2713

These parts range from 40mm and up to 100+mm in size.




They charge 144$ USD for this part,

http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2649

What price could something like this be manufactured at?


Thanks again,

djn

[inflateable]

How you'd manufacture it, and so how much it would cost, really does depend entirely on how many you want.

one-off: very expensive.
50,000+ off: fairly cheap.

[Delw]

like torcat said

in a vice for the first 2 operations

first op profile like the bottom pic
second op flip the part cut the od protrucion then face and let the parts drop in the vice.
third op use a fixture that you made to hold the part and drill/ream

if you run one part at a time you will never make any money
alot has to do with the size cause if its too small you won't have enough rpm for the machine to do it right and quick enough.

could you make money on this part selling them for 8.99 each? the answer is if you can do them in less than 5 mins per part you will make money, over 5 mins a part and you will lose money. the other thing is if you can sell thousands. if your planning to sell to hobby shops you will need to make the part for less that $3 including material ( providing $8.99 is the retail price.)
if you dont have a buyer for them and hoping to set a website up to sell them forget it not even worth the time and money of equipment invested.

buying a machine on the thought of making these parts not even worth it unless you want a play toy to see what else you can come up with.

[scadvice]

is really the key. At 50000 parts I could make fair money if I was able to ship them over a period of a year using conventional cnc machines they cost 4.93 ea.
Over that number, I would have to build a rotary or linear line transfer machine and a production anodizing station. Price examples: 100000pcs = 2.84 ea and at 200000 to 250000pcs about 1.99ea.

I'd use an alum extrusion, chop, broach, and spin swedge to get the basic profile, then minor machining only is needed.

Steve

[djnbig]

Definitely not considering doing this myself, the R/C aftermarket industry is already way flooded with new small guys popping up monthly. I was more curious at how the parts were created and what costs were involved in producing the parts. Both questions have been answered and I thank everyone for their input.

I'm really not sure how a lot of these smaller guys are making a living producing these parts,. I know a lot of the mid-larger guys are getting the work done in china, but there are plenty of in house shops doing R/C only in the USA. Many of them are also contracting a local machine shop and keeping their machines very busy, but they must be making a living at very small margins.

Thanks,

djn

like torcat said

in a vice for the first 2 operations

first op profile like the bottom pic
second op flip the part cut the od protrucion then face and let the parts drop in the vice.
third op use a fixture that you made to hold the part and drill/ream

if you run one part at a time you will never make any money
alot has to do with the size cause if its too small you won't have enough rpm for the machine to do it right and quick enough.

could you make money on this part selling them for 8.99 each? the answer is if you can do them in less than 5 mins per part you will make money, over 5 mins a part and you will lose money. the other thing is if you can sell thousands. if your planning to sell to hobby shops you will need to make the part for less that $3 including material ( providing $8.99 is the retail price.)
if you dont have a buyer for them and hoping to set a website up to sell them forget it not even worth the time and money of equipment invested.

buying a machine on the thought of making these parts not even worth it unless you want a play toy to see what else you can come up with.

[djnbig]

Which part are you referring to here?

This part here that MSRP is 144$?
http://www.ghhobby.com/proddetail.php?prod=2649

djn

is really the key. At 50000 parts I could make fair money if I was able to ship them over a period of a year using conventional cnc machines they cost 4.93 ea.
Over that number, I would have to build a rotary or linear line transfer machine and a production anodizing station. Price examples: 100000pcs = 2.84 ea and at 200000 to 250000pcs about 1.99ea.

I'd use an alum extrusion, chop, broach, and spin swedge to get the basic profile, then minor machining only is needed.

Steve

[bostosh]

from my older perspective, (61yrs now)

Corporate management has already given away everything in search of a cheaper way of producing. We have taught the worlds manufacturing centers everything we know. N/C was invented and pioneered here in the 50's and now everyone has the technology.

As a former toolmakers viewpoint.

We here in the USA can do anything (aerospace)

Anyone in the world can now build anything.

We here can still make any complicated thing work as intended.

However GE is making jet engines in Singapore
My Mercedes parts are built the world over.
Anything is built anywhere and everywhere.

Your job may be gone, but there are jobs for competent machinists everywhere.

[pikkipeople]

If it is die cast it is one crappy die, surface finish is horrible so it probably did come from China, I would guess sand cast which is a whole lot cheaper, it would require secondary machining operations but with China using slave labor and prisoners, labor is not a factor. The only problem is if they are made in China they are more than likley garbage and either wont fit or will break after a few uses.
The products coming out of China are pure garbage and they don't care, they know most people will not bother to drive back to a store to return an item that only costs a few dollars so they flood the market with substandard garbage. Any one considering having parts of any kind made in China should reconsider, what good it is getting the parts cheap if they wont work or break after a few uses and don't forget it is a COMMUNIST country. A few years back trade with them would not have been allowed and it should be banned now. I would also ban any American company that moves its manufacturing over there from ever returning to this country. It is greed at the expense of American jobs and anyone that does it should be considered a traitor to this country and given the appropriate sentence that a traitor deserves, hanging by the neck. I Know way off base on this one it is just frustrating as an American manufacturer to see scumbags helping destroy our country to make a few bucks. If I ran this forum anyone helping to ship parts over seas would be banned from posting ,after all this is supposed to be an American site correct?

Hi Joese
I totally agree with you i share your ideas and thoughts only thing is that i am from australia and china is doing the same to us.
pikkipeople

[bahamim]

Hello

I am from Saudi Arabia . I am very interested of manufactures and machine but I don’t Know with witches contrary

I like to connect Germany because I was in Germany .

With best wishes

Tanks

Mohammed Bahamim

[JOHN PARSONS]

And for you math whizzes I started running machines at home when I was 10 years old dad had a machine shop in our house so again you open your mouths prior to engaging your brain. If you would read my post you would know it is not China I have the problem with but since you can not be bothered to read and comprehend what I say this has become pointless

You even spelled Fadal wrong on your website. http://www.szpakmfg.com
SZPAK MANUFACTURING WAS STARTED IN 1983 IN A SMALL BUILDING WITH ONE LATHE AND ONE VERTICAL KNEE MILL BY MYSELF MY FATHER MY MOTHER AND BROTHER.
So if you started machining at 10 years old, that means you are 39, not 48?
Which is it?
With your extensive experience working at your Daddy's shop your whole life, in Ohio, of all places, you sound like you know everything.
I bet you never heard of John Parsons.
I have worked at over 50 shops, mostly aerospace in Los Angeles.
I moved to Fremont, Ca. it's only 40% Chinese people here.
I didn't inherit my shop from Daddy either.
Good luck, Junior

[joesz]

Johnny 50 shops? sounds to me like you could not hold a job for very long in fact that must mean you worked several different jobs a year, not something to brag about if you ask me. If you applied at my shop I would not even consider you since you have shown such a history of not being able hold a job that is probably because all the machines you ran were junk though. How many times have I heard people blame their poor workmanship and incompetence on equipment or tools, a good toolmaker or machinist can make good parts on any machine it may take longer but it can be done . And for your info we all started the shop at the same time I worked full time to support the family while we were getting it going it was not daddy's shop I worked very hard as did my whole family to start this place from nothing. As far as hearing of you, sounds like you are pretty full of yourself no one has heard of you John you are not famous so get over it. You seem to think Ohio is some how less than the California area well John we were running machines in Ohio before California even had roads so you are also uniformed as to simple US history. Your guess as to my age well that does not even make sense so I don't know how to respond to it except to try to explain to you that maybe it was possible I was running machines long before I started the company. Do you actually think I started the company at 10 years old? .Johnny I am not really sure why you feel the need to make yourself sound so important, you might be better off just not saying anything I don't think you are doing anything except making yourself look bad. I don't really know what the 40% Chinese comment has to do with anything at all
And on top of that none of this had to do with the topic we were talking about so please either stick to the topic or go find some place else to post.
If you wish to keep putting yourself in a bad light feel free to do so so far you are doing a great job of it, and sorry I never heard of you I guess you are not as important as you thought you were.