[ssrmr2]

I am looking to buy a little machine to make my own protoypes. tired of paying others and time for em to make some money. I will be using One cnc for programming. Just wondering if Fadal is a good 1st machine. Is it user friendly, good tech support/ help, ease of learning. I am looking at the 3016. Also is there a particular year that is better or known to be the better machines?

-steve

[scadvice]

I've owned mostly Fadals and mine are older machines '89' and a '97. Fadal cnc 88 controls come with two systems of programming standard old Fanuc G code and Fadal G-code. I've used both and prefer Fadal G-code. There is very little difference between the two, but Fadal's has a lot of nice canned cycles. And...if you are without a system for off line programming this is helpful.
Hass machines are good machines and they are the big boys on the block right now. When I bought my first machine Fadal was the big boys and You couldn't have given me a Hass in 89. But recently I've used both machines and I would go first with the Hass now on a new machine purchase.
Others may have a different opinion.
I am refurbishing another Fadal a 97 with the 4th axis CNC 88hs (high speed processor). But as I should say I have no real time on the new Fadals.

So... I suggest these thoughts.

If you are buying a used machine.

Hass I would avoid the High Speed Spindle 20,000 RPM VF-O 's High maintinance.

Hass I would stay away from the older that 97 machines.

Fadal the same stay away from the older machines 96 or less. (one note they made a VMC40 15 hp 10K rpm 16 x 20 late 88 and up (I'm note sure when they stopped making them) with an oil mist lub spindle. If you find one well taken care of and tight, it could be a good machine. The spindle is bullet proof. BTW a lot of parts on a Fadal can be bought in a hardware store and out of McMaster Carr.

Anyway, I think both are a good choice if you can find either with low hours and well maintained with Hass in my mine having a slight edge. Price wise, used Fadals are selling a little cheaper now.

If you are going to buy a new machine, find 3 or so local shops who have some of the newer machines of each and talk to them. Ask about service response & support ect.

Good luck - Steve

[scadvice]

Sorry did not your programming off line ...
My only comment is check with poeple who use One cnc about a post and a Fadal ( or a Hass ) Steve

[little bubba]

Are you looking at new or used? I wouldn't touch a new Fadal with a 10 foot pole. I like the old ones though, later 90's. They do break, but they are easy to fix, you have aftermarket part suppliers, unlike Haas. Thats a bonus, I've had better luck going to FadalCNC/CNCpros than I have through Fadal proper, tech support and parts, parts are cheap too, I prefer machines that just never ever have problems, but I can't afford one of those right now.

The control is just insanely simple(88HS, Horribly Slow), if you don't know the code for something, there is always a menu that will get you there. Very straight forward, it tells you exactly what to do.

On the Haas side, I'm anti-Haas. "Our 3 week old Haas won't hold the tolerance, can you run it on your 10 year old Mazak" WHAAAA??? "This Haas is great, but I need to buy another one to make up for all the downtime" BWAAHAHH??? same person. Besides the salesman never brings beer.

I like the Fadals, good bang for the buck in the used market, simple and basic, not the most rigid, but pretty good, cheap parts(I still prefer it just doesn't break), easy to fix, simple control. The one I now have sitting here has paid for itself 4 times in 6 six months and it has to share RPC time with the lathe. I bought this one because I liked the last one I worked with, and I knew how to fix it.

[ssrmr2]

guys,

yeah i know this is a tough queston with alot of lee-way in either and all directions, hence the need for the message board.

thanks for the great input. What i want and what I can affrod are 2 different things. I will have to buy good used that is the tough part. I know someone that has an older Fadal mid to late 90's that seems to be the "good years", and seen some HAAS TM-1 from '00 and newer for a very good price.

Do you guys have any insights on the Fadal 3016's? again main business is prototyping/ one-offs.

One other thing how does the Fadal's handle surfacing or they all the same? I was reading an article that recommended that I look into seeing if the machine can machine elipse in all 3 planes XY, YZ, XZ.

again thanks for all the insight.

-steve

[little bubba]

SSRMR2

The one thing about the Fadal, is the control is the control. Everything in the control as far as I can tell was pretty much standard, no worrying about options, it can do pretty much anything, just not as fast as some others. Its not a lightening fast machine, but there are people making molds on them.

It will contour in any plane you want, it should have full macros, it will helically interpolate, so you can thread mill. The one to watch for is rigid tapping, that was an option, though its mostly hardware, the control can handle it. It has some neat engraving canned cycles and will even serialize for you.

The control also has some neat features for picking up your offsets. Center of a circle with an edge finder, a corner at any orientation and any angle, very handy. It should have 48 offsets standard, and they are #'d as such, one of my favorite thing about the control, E1 is offset 1, and down the line, you can still use the G5Xs if you prefer, but trying to figure out what offset G55.2 is drives me nuts. Basic Fanuc style programming

They are good value, job shop/prototype machines where getting it out the door is the important thing, not getting it out the door 10 seconds quicker. The toolchanges are slower than molasses(though the changer is simple and reliable, umbrella style), the rapids leave something to be desired, it takes a while to spindle orient, it takes a few seconds to change gears, but it will do anything you want.

One thing to watch for is box or linear ways, I've never used a linear fadal, but they say they are no were near as rigid as the box machines. As for the 3016 specifically, all the machines were pretty darn close to the same, the main difference being the travels, I've only used the 4020s, but I'd take a 3016 for the right price.

Hope that helps a bit.

[scadvice]

good points. You notice that I said I was rebuilding a FADAL and it's for the very reasons he has stated. Also, if in the future you feel you cannot afford to have someone come out to work on your machine at $600 to $2000 a pop.
The used Fadal would be better and there is a lot of thread info. BTW I was told years back that Fadal stood for Frank, Al, Dave ,and Larry. The father and his sons who started Fadal.

A 30x16 Fadal comes in a couple of configs. The two I know well are VMC15
and VMC15xt (extended travel).

Steve(nuts)

[Neal]

Steve--
You are almost right. Fadal stands for Frank, Adrian (no Al), David and Larry.

Neal

[scadvice]

Steve--
You are almost right. Fadal stands for Frank, Adrian (no Al), David and Larry.

Neal

I was told that in 1989... Thanks for correcting an old guy's recollection.

Maybe you can tell us about the good and bad of linear ways vs box.

I believe, and in my experience, linear ways, because of less “stickson”, generally will give you a more accurate circular interpolated hole.

Box ways, it seems at first thought, would be heavier duty, but they have their own problems. Lubrication, stickson, and flatness need, requires more weight in the table. So more mass to push around. Also, if you think about it the servo work is higher and driver load also.

90 plus percent of the work most of us do, is relatively light duty.

I have both. But I cannot compare them to each other because they are not the same sized machines. The box way machine is a VMC40 (1989), and the other is a smaller less expensive VMC 15XT (1997) with linear ways.

I think if you maintain and don’t push any of them too hard they will outlast you and always perform well. What kills any machine is lack of proper lubrication and maintenance.

Earlier I said that I would get a new Haas before a new Fadal. I will have to take back that statement… I cannot honestly say that is the case without spending a lot of time researching say… a year or so of performance and support of both of the new machines out in the local shops.

If you are getting a bit older used machine, I would say a Fadal, because of what others have said and my time with them (I have used a number of machines including Haas). For the Fadal there is alot of help out there when you do have a problem.

And ....Neal, I thank you. You area great source of Fadal info/help. Steve

[ssrmr2]

steve,

i see that you are rebuilding a '97 Fadal. what are you replacing on it? which model is it? I have seen a couple of fadals around but still a bit out of the price range 30K+.

so far i am leaning towards haas, so far. Plus haas has the renishaw probing system. I have seen some topics about probing systems on fadals but...

keep the discussion going.

[ssrmr2]

anyone have a renishaw probe that is on the machine in running condition?
What all did you need for it to work? Eventually I think i would like to add one to the machine if it can be done.

[ltmquik]

I have a 2001 REMANUFACTURED FADAL VMC 3016 that needs to leave to make room for a new HAAS. This is a basic machine.

Umbrella type tool changer.
10K air/oil spindle.
4th axis wired.

Let me know if you are interested in this machine.

[ssrmr2]

Jeff,
I PM'd you.

steve

[ltmquik]

Steve,
I replied to your PM.
Jeff Lange

[Paul_S]

I have a 2001 REMANUFACTURED FADAL VMC 3016 that needs to leave to make room for a new HAAS. This is a basic machine.

Umbrella type tool changer.
10K air/oil spindle.
4th axis wired.

Let me know if you are interested in this machine.

Does that mean it has a 4th controller card? (Not just the X, Y And Z cards.) What is the memory RAM size? And which OS is in it?

Currently the company where I work is scouting for 3 Fadals with 10K spindles. I don't know the status of this search.

[Dennis H]

We have 3 fadals 2 3016's 95 & 98,& a 1990 6030.They are good if you need to do a lot of hogging off of material and have large tolerances (+-.005).We have had a lot of problems with the electronics.They come from the factory with the transformer mounted directly below the spindle inverter.Transformers generate a lot of heat & inverters are heat sensitive,so you have to remount the transformer in a seprate cabinet.The cabinets on are 90 have a chiller the cabinets on the 95 & 98 don't.There is no air filtration for the cabinets,so if you dry machine like we do you need to filter the air into the cabinet.We learned this the hard way with many shorted boards.The machine does not monitor the spindle cooling system if the pump breaks and you don't notice it you will ruin the spindle.
As for service we are in New Jersey you would be better off having monkeys fix it over the local fadal techs.Here is just 1 example of many of their "fixes".Tech chimp A comes out to replace a bearing on the x axis he reinstalls the ball screw wrong.We end up ruining the turksite on the bottom of the table.The guy who said the ballscrew was installed wrong was their top tech guy.We think they should pay to fix the table,they say their top tech guy is not qualified to make that determination and they won't pay.After a lot of angry phone calls to California fadal's remedy is we can buy parts directly from them.We ended up fixing the table ourselves and use an independent repair guy.
Our next milling machine will not be a fadal.

[scadvice]

steve,

i see that you are rebuilding a '97 Fadal. what are you replacing on it? which model is it? I have seen a couple of fadals around but still a bit out of the price range 30K+.

so far i am leaning towards haas, so far. Plus haas has the renishaw probing system. I have seen some topics about probing systems on fadals but...

keep the discussion going.

...I have been moving the shop and then was out of town. When I bought the machine it was fully functional and I paid 13K for it. But because of divorce it sat in storage at my home for two years and accumulated some rust and also some spousal abuse (No need to tell more of that story!)
It is a '96 VMC15XT (I punched the wrong key earlier) with a 4th axis and a high speed processor. Rust damage was minor accept for one of the liner ways on the X axis as a small rust pit. In a conversation with a "Star" linear way rep. and some others it is felt that it may not effect the machines performance based on the fact that you cannot hear it when the cage travels across it and it is so small. But, it bears watching. Replacement is around $1500 from Fadal but I believe around half that from the manufacturer.
I'm cleaning all the rust off and painting the inside. Because the inside paint very coolant stained I've had to strip all the way to bare metal. I have to use a metal etch primer and most likely an epoxy paint. Fadal gave me the color number but it was easy to have matched at a local good commercial paint store.
The biggest problem that I finally gave up on was removing all the sheet metal. It is really just about an impossible thing to do without damaging the out side paint. Plus removing the pendant. I have removed all the smaller sheet metal parts sand blasted them bare and they are primed and ready for paint.
I've pulled the tool changer apart, cleaned, and reassemble it. Pulled the fan below the transformer and cut the opening out and put in a dual fan system. I may consider moving the dynamic brake heater above the spindle drive considering what Dennis has said, but that is new as a problem to me. It seems that if there is a heat problem it is coming mostly from the heater because they cut openings below the heater and use the single fan at the bottom of that electrical box to pull the heat away. Simpler to move the heater and mount it to its own base with a fan away from the openings and put a simple filer on the openings.
Fadal use to have a added on probe package. I do not know what they have or is available from other sources.
As to where to buy a Haas or a Fadal, I can't tell you. I would base my decision on want I said before how much you can afford to spend. The machines are good and bad in both and if you have to rely on a service tech for repairs that is everything.
Steve

[toddcheck]

ssrmr2,

9 months ago I was in the same boat as you. After much research (and several sleepless nights) I picked a '97 Fadal 3016 over late 90's Haas machines. Ours has 7,500 rpm spindle, ridgid tap, servo controlled coolant and expanded memory. We also run OneCNC. It runs both production jobs and die steels for our tool room and has yet to let us down. Remember, the most important thing when buying used CNC equipment is to buy on condition first.

Hope this helps...

[milldoe]

very easy choice HAAS

[Gmaan]

If you are looking for good tech support Hass is the only way to go! I worked on them for years cut only steel, they are great machines. Replacement parts are reasonable on price, and yo can do most of your own work. Easy to use, more standard industry format on the control side, and generally a good machine. Pre 97 never mind I used Hass serial number 1087 (87th machine haas sold) for years. 7.5 hp but it just kept chugging along. I did most of the repairs myself, encoders, CRT drive board replacements.
Haas has a real nice mini mill for cheep! 25K brand new. I made thousands of golf putter face inserts on it.

I would go with haas, over a Fadal any day.