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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > CNC Machine Related Electronics > HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    HF Model # 39743 or Bolton AT-125 Re-Wiring Help...

    I have an AT125 Mini Multipurpose machine, same as Harbor Freight 39743, I had to replace a switch in the machine due to a burnt connector, I found the cause was some bad wiring, insulation was cut through, I was a dummy and did not take photos of everything before disconnecting and disassembling the wiring harness, I am having a problem with the section of wiring that contains the DPDT reversing switch...

    The motor is a single phase cap start motor with 4 leads, I am assuming a start winding and a run winding from the schematic... My problem is identifying the correct wiring to the DPDT switch from the motor wiring harness... See enclosed photos... In the photo of the DPDT switch, I have cut or desoldered the four leads from the motor and the two leads from the magnetic safety switch, this is where I messed up(not taking a photo)

    Any help would be appreciated, if someone has this machine, if you can take a look at the wiring of the reversing switch and make a color coded diagram it would be most appreciated... The colors are different than the printed scematic, but only on one side of the motor, everything else matches the schematic...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails at125_wiring_diagram.jpg   switch_1.JPG   switch_2.jpg  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    3757
    You don't show a full picture, but it looks like 2 wires to the switch and 2 loop wires.
    That being correct, the middle 2 connections of the switch go to the motor as per the diagram, green/yellow, and green.
    The two black wires from the switch got to the brown and black of the motor.
    If the motor runs the wrong way according to the switch, turn the switch around in the panel.
    Make sure you don't change direction while the motor is running.
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. Three ways to fix things: The right way, the other way, and maybe your way, which is possibly a faster wrong way.

  3. #3
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    Oct 2010
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    Thank you for the response, anything else I can show you to make certain this is correct I can provide photos of, there is also the external capacitor that is supposed to be connected to the black wire out from the direction switch, then back into the motor diagram, I will post photos of the original setup, there is a six position modular connector between the switch harness and the motor harness, there is a loopback on two positions on the switch side, on the motor side, the two leads from the capacitor where there along with the four leads from the motor...

    I hope I am not confusing you with this explanation, I will attach photos as I need to make certain this is correct, I have spent a lot of time working on this rebuild and want it to be good to go...

    I will pull the electrics and photograph what I have... All I remember is this motor has a lot of grunt and works well with my micro lathe... It is worth the effort to me...

    Thanks again for your assistance...

    Ken

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    2083
    Hi Ken

    will this do ?

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails forward reverse switch.jpg  

  5. #5
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    Oct 2010
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    That might help, I made the mistake of not leaving enough wire with insulation colors on the DPDT switch and not taking macro photos of the original setup(dummy me, something I always do when disassembling)

    I'm prepping some photos so you can see the nightmare the stock setup is, the confusion comes from the reverse switch, the cap and the loopback in the wiring harness... Your drawings may help quite a bit, I think I understand what is happening here, only the run winding is being reversed??? That's what confuses me, I would think the start winding would be needed after the motor has stopped, the reverse switch toggled and restarted the starter windings would need to be initiated to start up in the reversed direction??? I must be missing something...

    Here's some photos of what I have to work with, there is a safety switch on the change gear door, there is a magnetic safety switch, then the mess of the reversing circuit...

    Ken
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails wiring_1.JPG   wiring_2.JPG   wiring_3.JPG   wiring_4.JPG  


  6. #6
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    Oct 2010
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    So I can move on to this project...

    I need to get my micro lathe done so I can move on to finishing up my hybrid CNC micro mill...

    it features replaceable spindle cartridges, the stock X-1 micro mill head, a genuine Sherline spindle cartridge with high speed DC drive and a Dremel Tool spindle for really high speed use of small cutters...

    Here's a couple photos of my CNC mill conversion...


    Ken
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_1907.jpg   Mill_3.JPG   rotary_table.JPG  

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    24216
    Quote Originally Posted by blkbagger View Post
    T. Your drawings may help quite a bit, I think I understand what is happening here, only the run winding is being reversed??? That's what confuses me, I would think the start winding would be needed after the motor has stopped, the reverse switch toggled and restarted the starter windings would need to be initiated to start up in the reversed direction??? I must be missing something...
    It does not matter which is reversed as long as one is reversed WRT the other.
    According to the original diagram they are reversing the run windings only.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  8. #8
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    Oct 2010
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    You guys are great, I sincerely appreciate all the assistance, I will wire this up per the diagram and put a meter to it, fingers crossed, I want to get my lathe running again...

    If I have any problems I will ask for additional help...

    The mfg made a mistake and the color coding of the wires is incorrect compared to what I have, the motor has the green and green/yellow, but the black and brown are replaced with red and blue in my motor... I will substitute, one for one and wire it up...

    I will check polarity with the meter and a straight through connection in place of the capacitor, I would rather confirm correct wiring without power applied... When the switch is thrown and tested with my meter which pair should be reversed ?

    Again thanks for all the tips and help, it is sincerely appreciated...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    24216
    The ground conductor should be easy to check to motor frame.
    Check continuity between red & blue to see if they are actually one winding.
    If the motor runs Rev instead of Fwd at power up, swap conductors on any one pair of windings.
    Not sure why they use green/yellow as a conductor which is ground in most parts of the world, but that is China I guess!!
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    The ground conductor should be easy to check to motor frame.
    Check continuity between red & blue to see if they are actually one winding.
    Not sure why they use green/yellow as a conductor which is ground in most parts of the world, but that is China I guess!!
    Al.
    I just checked with my meter to verify the winding, I've got continuity between the blue & red wires, is there a way to determine which equates to black and which equates to brown??? Or does it matter???

    And again, thank you for the tip... I have a clue about electronics, but not a whole lot of knowledge about AC motors, different types etc...

    Ken

  11. #11
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    Dec 2003
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    See edit in my last post.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    2083
    Hi

    Al has made a good point

    check the motor is wired as expected and the green/yellow wire is not connected to the
    motor case

    I have revised the wiring to the expected new colours
    but at the moment , can not be 100% sure of how to check which winding is which

    I think for a capacitor start motor
    the start winding connected to the capacitor has the lowest resistance
    and the switch opens at about 75% of he running speed

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails forward reverse switch take 2.jpg  

  13. #13
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    Dec 2003
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    Yes the lower resistance should be the start winding, make sure when moving motor leads the Cap follows the start winding.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  14. #14
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    Oct 2010
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    Thank you...

    Thank you so much for taking the time to do the schematic drawing for me, and also for the tip to identify the starter winding, I did just find that same information on ID'ing the starter winding on an eletronics site... I figured that there had to be an easy way to determine which was which with a meter...

    I am about to wire it all up and give it a test... Will report back...

    Ken

  15. #15
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    Oct 2010
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    Limited success...

    The motor only spins in one direction...

    Here is a marked up image of the diagram I used, I have marked the modular connector positions for easier indentification...

    The thing that I don't understand is the functionality of the DPDT switch in this application, a DPDT switch, switches from the two center poles to the outer poles on either side, depending on which side the rocker is... I cannot understand how this arrangement works if that is the case with the switch(as it is, I tested it with my meter), and the crossover wires confuse the issue even more for me, there must be an easier way to wire up a reverse switch on a single phase capacitor start motor but this is the setup it came with, it worked before, I would imagine two wires are incorrect in the setup...

    Again, any help is appreciated... Ken
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image0001.jpg  

  16. #16
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    Oct 2010
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    Perhaps this will help someone help me...

    The first time I examined the internals of this motor it struck me as an oddball, I did not identify the centrifugal switch for capacitor start motor as I have seen in other industrial motors, also the armature looks different as do the coils, the wire used is identical on both coils leading me to think it's not a normal capacitor start motor...

    I need to get my lathe up and running, I've emailed Bolton Hardware a couple times, the best I got was the lousy "schematic" that I provided in the first post... Harbor Frieght was no help at all, the same drawing...

    I dug a little deeper on the net tonight and think I have identified the correct type of motor this is... As I stated before, this motor has a lot of grunt for a little motor, it barely gets warm when running and weighs a ton for its size...

    Here's a llittle information I found on the net tonight, maybe this can help someone to modify the scehmatic so it's correct...

    "Permanent-split capacitor motor: Another variation is the permanent-split capacitor (PSC) motor (also known as a capacitor start and run motor).
    This motor operates similarly to the capacitor-start motor described above, but there is no centrifugal starting switch, and what correspond to the start windings (second windings) are permanently connected to the power source (through a capacitor), along with the run windings. PSC motors are frequently used in air handlers, blowers, and fans (including ceiling fans) and other cases where a variable speed is desired.

    A capacitor ranging from 3 to 25 microfarads is connected in series with the "start" windings and remains in the circuit during the run cycle. The "start" windings and run windings are identical in this motor, and reverse motion can be achieved by reversing the wiring of the 2 windings, with the capacitor connected to the other windings as "start" windings. By changing taps on the running winding but keeping the load constant, the motor can be made to run at different speeds."


    Please help me as I am struggling to get my lathe back up and running...

    Thank you, Ken

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    2083
    Hi Ken

    double check both the common contacts (in the middle)
    connect to one of the four other contacts in both switch positions

    the switch may be faulty and only making in one position

    the internal switch connections are shown in red on the diagram

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails forward reverse switch take 3.jpg  

  18. #18
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    Oct 2010
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    John, thanks for hand holding me through this... The switch tests fine at all contacts... This has me frustrated, I've owned this machine tool for nearly 15 years, it was my first change gear lathe, my very first was an original Unimat jewelers lathe(regret selling that)...

    Everything was working when I disassemled the wiring harness, except there was a hot spot in the wiring where the insuation was cut through, all I've done is replace two sections of wire and replace the 6 position molex connector...

    The schematic provided by the vendor is worthless, words printed over contacts, connections not clear in the drawing, color coding not matching the machine, etc, etc...

    The DPDT switch tests fine... Any other suggestions are appreciated... I'm going to open the motor and take some photos of the winding and wiring to verify the coils sides...

    Ken

  19. #19
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    Oct 2010
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    Cracked the motor open to take a look at the windings and wiring colors, I did test for continuity between the pairs earlier, but if what I see is correct the pairs are split differently than I "assumed"... Take a look at these photos, suggestions are welcome, I would like to properly ID all the wiring and make a nice new schematic for future reference.

    Tone is between the red and blue
    Tone is between the Green and Green/Yellow
    There is no continuity between any other combination, nor are any leads grounded to the motor body...

    Thanks for all the time and help with this frustrating problem... Ken
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails motor_wires_1.JPG   motor_wires_2.JPG  

  20. #20
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    Mar 2007
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    2083
    Hi Ken

    if a resistance check confirms the coils are

    coil 1 - green + blue

    coil 2 - yellow/green + red

    and not as first thought

    coil 1 - blue + red

    coil 2 - green + yellow/green

    that will explain every thing

    the diagram shows why it will run in one direction


    as a matter of interest whats the unreadable schematic realy like ?

    John

    PS are the coils exactly the same wire and same restance ?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails forward reverse switch take 4.jpg  

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