[Johnuk]

First of all, I'm 20.

I've been on some form of CNC or machining discussion group for longer than I can remember - probably for the last 8 years or so. I taught myself to weld, built a furnace for casting metal, spent hundreds of hours reading about lasers, got hold of a CNC training lathe and similar things.

My lathe is a really simple Denford Orac. If you're interested, you can see a piccy of one here...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...850122572&rd=1

I have now finished school and am thinking about what I'd like to do for a living.

I have already worked in my spare time in steel fabricators, a computer store and part time for a guy making steel gates, railings, post boxes and spiral stair cases. I have also experienced mass processing first hand, working 12 hours shifts for a few days in a mass packaging warehouse - a truely horrible experience.

The experience I have gained from these few jobs has taught me that I will only really be happy if I can work for myself. Because working for myself means that I can see things going wrong, or that I could improve on, and then make the changes... not have to play around with the social dynamics of whether or not someone is going to be bothered listening to me.

I have also been doing a great deal of research into plasma recently, as I have an idea for a potential modification to the process. This led to me speaking with the staff at plasma laboraties in Princeton and Lawrence Livermore - one of which has even been sending me very cool handy draw pictures from her home.

I enjoy making things and being productive, so CNC seemed like at least somewhere to start looking.

However, the more I look at it, it's seems kind of tricky to get into. By definition, a lot of CNC work is high mass or high complexity now. For the first, you need a lot of 'on' time, it's also very boring, and for the second, at least one super pricey piece of machinery.

Since I have very little spare money, I need to be very, very careful about what I decide on investing it in.

I am not particularly picky about what I end up doing, so long as it interests me. I am also ready to work my ass into the floor 23 hours a day if it means I'll end up with something.

One route that keeps returning to me is perhaps jewelery. Here the production quantities are low, yet the end result has a relatively high gain on the parts going into it.

I would like to ask about your experiences with CNC, whether or not you have managed to make a genuinely sustainable living from your work with it and what it is that you use it for.

My family and friends would probably say I should take a degree in CNC machining. And then I could spend the rest of my life programming molds for plastic bottles. Don't think so!

I would prefer to be directly in charge of whatever I end up doing. I have thought far outside CNC to cosmetics, making a unique kind of trainer I had an idea for and even photography. All the time I usually end up coming back to something involving making things, whether it's with my job or with the money I get from it.

I'm not looking for a specific job to do, just some ideas of what the realities are of actually making any money from CNC. You should enjoy your job to some extent, but I also need to make enough money from it to pay for myself.

I'm open to any suggestions!

My best wishes!
John

[Ken_Shea]

John, good news and bad news,

Good News:
You are young and have time to recover from a few mistakes.
Good News:
You have a lot of interest so that is good.

Bad News:
Working for yourself is not a bowl of cherries as they say, I have nearly 40 years doing that, personal experience and talking to other self employed bare the truth to the fact that if you are not willing to work 60-70 hours or more a week (especially starting out) better look elsewhere.

Best to you
Ken

[HuFlungDung]

What Ken said

Working as your own boss can be very rewarding. Its not for everyone, though, and as you have indicated that you are willing to work 23 hours a day, that'll do perfect

It takes connections to get the work, though. I think that product development (on your own) is very high risk, especially if you have to create demand for the product. It can take a lot of $$ to get the attention that your product deserves, even if it is a very good one.

So for a safe start, I think you need to figure out how to situate yourself in a place or market where you can get some work. Since I live in a rural area, I started out in agricultural machine repair, using manual lathes and mills. I worked at another job for a couple of years while I built up a clientel and got a good reputation. It was slim goings at first. But I enjoyed the work nonetheless: the repair field can be quite challenging and demands that you gain a lot of experience in many different areas and trade skills, all at the same time of course

You are right: straight mass production is not good entertainment, but it often pays the bills. Even in manually produced parts, making a batch allows you to get pretty good at efficiency.

I highly advocate that cnc people have manual machine shop experience first. Otherwise, you just don't have the intuitive feel for running the cnc correctly, and setting up parts.

[Moondog]

Hello John...

You have the right attitude and passion that is the basis for success.

Life is all about Opportunity. Most people sit around waiting for opportunity to knock on their door... it doesn't happen. You create your own opportunities. You do need to take some risks, financial as well as professionally.

I am somewhat older than you and only been involved in CNC for about 8 months. But in that short time I have seen so many opportunities to develop businesess that I am selling my share in my practice (Accounting/ Financial Planning) to establish a CNC related business.

My only problem is deciding which business route/product I am going to follow. There are so many opportunities. I will need to narrow it down to one or two. Right now I am making my machine in readyness for next year. I am even in the planning stages of machine #2 to cover production demand...

I see you are situated in England and depending on where you are, large city or rural will dictate somewhat the opportunities.

I would love to help steer you in the right direction/ discuss your ideas and also share my ideas with you. Please email me at [email protected]

I think CNC business ideas should be a New post area. Maybe I'll start one.

[ynneb]

Hey John, I am in a similar boat to you, except I have a wife that works and supports the lows in having a self run bussiness. You are lucky because you probably dont have as much learning to do as me.
The one thing I am learning is to have a versatile machine, so that you can easily take on all sorts of work. When I got into CNC I had some subcontract work waiting for me already. That worked out well for a few months until they changed the design and it wouldnt fit on my machine. (Bugger) Whatever machine you descide to have make sure its real big.
An advantage with having a self built machine is that you wont have a big debt over your head. This allows you undercut the competition and take work from the bigger players.

As Frans/Moondog said, youll have to activley source work, and not hope it comes to you. I am at present making my machine even bigger, and even while it is down I have sourced some more work.

Be creative in your thought, look at what is already been done, and figure if you can make it cheaper and as good/better. Approach the businesses that are currently outsourcing their CNC work and boldly tell them about your services.

The other idea is to be prepared to manufacture, assemble and market your work. This way you are not as reliant on a subcontract situaton, you will be in control.

Every thing I said is theory, and I am still sussing my way through too, but it will work out eventually.

One last thing, be prepared to spend many hours not been payed. I have had times where I have spent a day getting the gcode just right only to find that they wanted a last minute change, I could have cracked the sh1ts, but bit my lip and just redid what they needed. In the end it eventually translated as payed work.

EDIT: you are soooo right about wanting to do something that interests YOU.
Befor I got into CNC, I bought a bussiness just because it looked like it was going to make lots of money, the truth is I denied myself and even contemplated suicide because of that bussiness.It was a real mill stone. Well I guess it was better to lose 45 grand than end up rotting in a grave. But DO NOT DENY YOUSELF AND NATURAL TALENTS.

[Alan T.]

One thing you may consider is to first try and make the CNC pay for itself as a Hobby business that you do on the side while earning a living in a more conventional job. I tried this route with my Jewelry making, I was able to sustain both the growth of my shop equipment as well as enjoyment of the hobby by doing Art shows and festivals. I was over about 3 years able to supply my shop with everything from casting equipment to bench tools and mold making. Making a living from this however would have been difficult as the Jewelry Industry,(at least at the time) had taken a severe hit from QVC and the HSN. Also, cheaper imported jewelry seemed to move faster than hand made pieces because of the price difference. People don't really care about quality anymore, they just want a quick nice gift or something that sparkles. There is a market for higher end Jewelry but its very, very competative. Unique, very high quality goods needs time to develop a clientle so start out slow and "Not" needing the funds to eat.

Just a been there done that story but I hope you find the information helpful in some fashion.

Good luck in whatever you do.

[Johnuk]

Some very interesting replies!

I guess I'll have to spend a few weeks thinking about things.

A lot of you have implied what I thought at first, that it is becoming more and more difficult to find something that can be CNC made at home and still produce a profit when the competition is so well equipped in comparison. QVC for instance - Sparkly things for $9.99. Doesn't matter if it's junk, since the camera doesn't pick up on it. Once you've bought it and found out it's junk, they have your $9.99 anyway.

Ironically, TV shows like QVC are making out more and more that the home office is the place to make money with services like eBay available to it. Probably because they sell the printers and paper to put in your home office. As well as the burgers for your dinner after a hard day in the office!

There are also the physical problems of competing with big companies. While I'm sure even I could afford to build a gigantic plasma cutting table with the help of a loan, I don't have a room 60ft long to put it in. The only way of competing with that is to have a 6ft long machine that runs ten times quicker than their's. A linear motor fed plasma cutter! :banana:

I am moderately hopeful about my idea with plasma cutting. I have actually been talking to my brother, an IP lawyer, about possibly getting it patented. The idea is based on increasing the definition of the plasma. However, there are at least a few mechanical problems that would need thinking about before the idea could be applied properly. I know for a fact that no company currently sells plasma torches in this layout. While I am thinking about ideas, I'll buy a plasma cutting and give the theory a test.

One thing I have been thinking about recently is where all the millionaires are.

There are a few making super expensive products, like Bugatti Veyron super cars, things that sell in small numbers but cost a lot each. But the majority of them sell wholesale products that everyone needs or wants in mass.

Richard Branson for instance, train tickets, Cola & music. Bill Gates, something to make your computer work - from time to time.

There aren't a lot of millionaires who do custom machining of bits and pieces. Boeing, on the other hand, who mass produce aeroplane parts, made fifty billion dollars worth of profit last year alone.

Perhaps the only way to make a good amount back from CNC is to work towards mass production of low profit per unit parts that have mass appeal?

[HuFlungDung]

Maybe you should try commodity trading in the futures market. It takes a little bit to get started but with patience, you can make a nice profit there.

However, making money for me, is not the objective, but rather the means to buy the tools that I want, in order to do what I want. I know lots of well-off people that really have no purpose for their hoard of money. Pity, really.

In the cnc field, real mass production is really cheap. I don't think the small guy can compete. Smaller lots that will not attract the interest of the big players, or very complex parts that take a lot of know-how and time to do correctly, are better niches to pursue, IMHO.

[turmite]

"Perhaps the only way to make a good amount back from CNC is to work towards mass production of low profit per unit parts that have mass appeal?"

John I tried this approach and then I needed more equipment. After getting the equipment I needed employees and on and on the story goes. What I found out the hard way is that no matter how hard I tried I could not compete with the companies who had more, better, and bigger equipment as well as more employees.

With all of my heart I wish I could give you the correct information and direction....well ok if I really knew it I'd write a book, get on the tube as infomercials and be one of those millionaires.

I have heard two sayings that seem to apply here.
1. A person is only given two or three opportunities in life to make it big!
2. The harder I work the luckier I seem to get!

My advise to you would be to take a little more time in deciding what it is you really want to do. Once that decision has been made, write out a set of obtainable goals. The first of those should be to find a mentor and the second to build a written business plan, I'll let you decide what the others whould be!


Mike

[Alan T.]

Don't let this be discouraging to you. There are people who seem to be able to make a go of a small scale cnc related business. Rab Gordon in Scotland (Rainnea Graphics) is a very good example. Quite a talented person. Do a google search for a link to his site. He has written a 5 axis plug-in to 3DSMax that is really quite intresting. He makes jewelry with this system of celtic design.

Just take the time and do your research, start slowly and see what your market will support. At the very least you should be able to aquire some nice tools.

Alan T.

[micromillnick]

Best of Luck John, i only do cnc as a hobby but i do know of other activities which dovetail with cnc which may provide a revenue stream. Make something small which you can get injection molded to sell to specialsit hobbists. use the cnc to make the mold use the mold to make you money. Just a thought. Im in the uk too so drop me line if you are nearby and want to chat.
Nick

Somerset

[nervis1]

I've been doing it for a year or so, small jobs for people with just word of mouth advertising. Started with doing a job for a buddy for free, then pretty soon the phone calls started, "hey I know so and so, he said you can make stuff, I need....".

It's been fun and I'll keep doing it for fun. Having one CNC machine and being a one man show makes it near impossible to mass produce anything, or to make lots of complex assemblies, because of the time it takes to tear down one set up and put together another. I could spend all weekend on one item that had three parts all required multiple setups and programs. If this was my day job I would have gone broke long ago.

The way I figure it you either have to have a building full of machines and staff, or have one client and one simple part that you can churn out day after day. Preferably this would be a lathe part, to be used with a bar feeder, or a small enough mill part that you could fixture twenty or forty of them on the table at once. As a way to make a little extra side cash it's great, making it your sole source of income would be a challenge to be sure.

[micromillnick]

Thats what i like about the plastic injection mold theory, you make it just once on cnc (could be a multi impression mold) but then as many as you like after that via the mold. I made my own plastic injection molding machine from a book for about £50 so i have the luxury of doing that if i want, just a thought.
Nick

[nervis1]

Cool, where did you get the book? I'd like to read it.

[micromillnick]

camden Steam, in the UK but its a US auther, Dave Gingery- a great guy who sadly passed away this year.
The book is called "Secrets of building a plastic injection molding machine"
published by the author.
Its an excellant build manual, i used my machine to produce pre-production samples for a small torch, all this was pre CNC for me so all the alloy molds were done manually on lathe and mill, however the great thing is "you only have to get it right once".
Camden Steam are on the net and supply worldwide if you want the book.

Cheers

Nick

[shootingarts]

John,

The hard truth is that you have to sell something to make more than wages. It doesn't matter if it is goods, other people's work, or an idea. As long as your income is tied to the amount of work you personally can turn out an hour you are unlikely to become wealthy. Being wealthy isn't necessary to be happy but it isn't detrimental to happiness either if a person is smart. Of course, I can only say that from observation!

Hu

[rustyolddo]

John,

In your quest, start looking at what you already know. A number of my friends who are in the biz started by making a gizmo that was related to their hobby. Paintball, RC cars, hotrods etc. They would make some gadget or improvement and next thing you know all their buddies wanted one and their buddies etc. Go with what you know.

Don't expect for someone to simply tell you that "Hey, there money in making jar openers". you'll discover that everyone is making them already and there's no money in it for you. The money is in the first to make it to market. Just like Lifesavers, Kleenex, Hoovers, etc. Yep, plenty of other mfrs of the same products but the guys that made it first control the largest part of the market share and always will until something better comes along.

Another avenue to take is go to shops and find out what their least desireable job or operation is. Look at it and see if you can figure out in your head a better & easier way to do it. Then offer to do it for them at a price they are willing to pay. Perhaps a shop that is set up to make large parts and has to struggle to make some small part. I know a number of shops that will do aggravating undesireable jobs for their customers just to keep them from going elsewhere and they will even lose money on it.

Don't know anyone self-employeed that became instant successes, they all struggled for years. Good luck in your quest.

[Geof]

Don't know anyone self-employeed that became instant successes, they all struggled for years. Good luck in your quest.

Rustyoldo;

Don't be so pessimistic; we all became instant successes ... it just took a couple of decades for the rest of the world to recognise this. It is not our fault if everyone else is so slow.

[ViperTX]

JohnUK...well let me jump in here..."mass produced product"....you most likely will die trying to compete in that marketplace....I personally would focus on providing solutions to businesses that can't afford "downtime"....take for instance a long haul trucker...who has an airbrake failure...can't afford alot of downtime...so they search fo someone who can rectify their problem as rapidly as possible....let's say the owner of an excavation company needs to have the tines on his front-end loaders replaced quickly while the machine is on the job-site.....a fixture which will allow the installation and shaping of new tines may be key to filling that need......do you get the idea...."why run a mile if you can walk for 2 feet" and make the same money....

[dang]

When starting a business, a person has to look at all the angles. High Production will always cost money, whether it's boondogle keychains or replacement ferrari badges. The first thing any business should do is settle on something or things that are simple to produce. The best things to produce are things which have the lowest chance of getting you sued, safe things, non load bearing things, think nerf.
After you find a design, you then find a market for that design, and make the market a small one at first, just so you can keep up with it. In business you always wanna think about sustainability, well not always, but at first anyway.
My advice is to start out on ebay, forget about QVC and Wal-Mart at first because they are very had to deal with, and also because they want the best product possible. Not to mention the insurance that they -require- a supplier to carry on they're product. All of these things could burn you out very quickly.
For all of those reasons ebay is the best place to start out. They even have market research tools to help you narrow you're production field.
And lastly is the actual process. Having such a wide range of ideas for production, you should find out how things are produced. You'd be surprised how much money you could make with a mold built by professionals and a used plastic injection molder. You can even use new bioplastics to avoid pollution. You could build really great and useful parts with a mig welder and a home-made plasma cutter. You could build industrial equipment with some off the shelf components a welder and a sheet metal break.
With ebay you can literally build any product you like and sell it with no liability to you, which is important, considering insurance. Just make sure that this product won't hurt anyone (nerf), and sell it with a statement the effect that you are not responsible.
The list of products is endless.
Also, I totally disagree with whoever said that you have to be the first to market with you're product to make money from it, all you have to do is make sure that the product is priced competatively, and maybe throw in some added features. Make it just a little bit better. Not everyone is Ben Franklin,
or Steve Jobs.
Don't look for the money alone, look for the money combined with something that you like and can spend some time building and tweaking yourself. Just make sure it's not all your time.
--------------------------------------->EBAY
I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Kris Anderson