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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17

    Metering/Dosing pump

    Hi!

    This post is not related with CNC on anyway, but as there are allot of experts in mechanics/engineering visiting this site, may someone can help me.

    I need a small dosing/metering pump that can deliver about 0.1/0.2 ml each minute. I found two types of pumps that can work, but they are a bit expensive to this project:

    http://www.wmcpumps.com/series_100.htm
    http://www.thomas-magnete.com/produk...rpumpe_gb.html

    Does anyone know any other type of dosing/metering pump that I can use and where can I buy it?

    Thank you all

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    475
    Yep.
    I have one which was used in a water treatment plant. It has a small diaphram that is pulsed on time and stroke intervils. Dunno how accurate it is????

    Chich

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by chich2 View Post
    Yep.
    I have one which was used in a water treatment plant. It has a small diaphram that is pulsed on time and stroke intervils. Dunno how accurate it is????

    Chich
    Where did you get it and how much do it costs? Do you know where can I found more informations on it and where to buy it?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    323

    dosing application

    What is your application, filling multiple individual containers or as a controlled input into a larging system, other? What is your process fluid?

    Peristaltics are used a lot for aqueous solutions. Masterflex, Cole-parmer, and Watson-Marlow are all good names to search ebay for. They make units that you can program dosage and number of fills with pauses between containers.

    Syringe fillers use to be widely used as well, IIRC 'fill-a-matic' or some derivative.

    Rotary lobe pumps can be used as well, but typically larger volume and for special media, e.g. high viscosity or media with solids.

    You could CNC your own with a peristaltic pump head driven by a stepper or servo. I might have one of these laying around, but you'd have to work out the dosing control.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Well, my application is quite simple. In a car running on LPG, the valve seats suffer more than when running on gasoline. To solve this problem there are some "mechanical" systems that rely on the under-pressure created by the engine to "inject" small amounts of an additive into the engine. The problem is that this systems not very reliable and not always work as they should.

    So, the pump I need is just to pump very small amounts of that additive(special oil) into the intake manifold of the engine, pretty simple

    I will look over eBay for those brands, maybe I find something interesting.

    One other thing, what is the expected life-time of a peristaltic pump?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    323

    injection

    A peristaltic is fairly durable, the dosing chamber is a durable yet flexible and replaceable hose. The manufacturer could provide better life or reliability data.

    Your application sounds like an injection system would work better. A small high pressure electric pump and injector. It would be fairly simple in that your dumping into the intake with no synchronization requirement. A high pressure injection system will help atomize your 'oil' for better distribution into the engine.

    You may want to post in the engine build section to get better or more specific direction. I don't think peristaltic would suit your need.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    You might try a Trico micro-drop dispenser or one of the similar brands. They have interval and volume control. There's another brand who's name I don't recall at the moment.

    You could inject your valve solution anywhere in the intake air-stream.

    Dick Z
    DZASTR

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by 123CNC View Post
    Your application sounds like an injection system would work better. A small high pressure electric pump and injector. It would be fairly simple in that your dumping into the intake with no synchronization requirement. A high pressure injection system will help atomize your 'oil' for better distribution into the engine.
    Well, I have already thought of that, but that would make a the system to expensive. One other problem is that small pump with high pressure will not last very long, thats what I think... Do you know any small cheap pump that can do this?

    The injector would be also one other problem, because we are talking of very small amounts of additive... 500ml of additive should work for about 5000/6000km... thats about 0.16 ml each minute...

    One other thing that would be important is that I can increase the flow when the engine is on higher speed, with a peristaltic pump, I just need to increase the RPM of it, with a higher pressure pump and an injector, I would have to control the injector or the pressure of the pump...

    Quote Originally Posted by 123CNC View Post
    You may want to post in the engine build section to get better or more specific direction. I don't think peristaltic would suit your need.
    I will go ask for help in the engine build section

    Quote Originally Posted by RICHARD ZASTROW
    You might try a Trico micro-drop dispenser or one of the similar brands. They have interval and volume control. There's another brand who's name I don't recall at the moment
    I will search on that one too

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985
    What about a carburetor? Just put oil in it instead of gas. Might work with the right jets and if the oil is low viscosity.

    Matt

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by keebler303 View Post
    What about a carburetor? Just put oil in it instead of gas. Might work with the right jets and if the oil is low viscosity.

    Matt
    I have already thought of that, maybe using a small carburetor of some RC engine, but that would have the same problem of existing "mechanical" systems, because the under-pressure generated by the engine is varies too much, and sometimes, it could simply to stop lubricating...

    So, I have to force the oil to get in the engine

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    323
    Quote Originally Posted by pds View Post
    One other thing that would be important is that I can increase the flow when the engine is on higher speed, with a peristaltic pump, I just need to increase the RPM of it, with a higher pressure pump and an injector, I would have to control the injector or the pressure of the pump...
    With an injector scheme, control the time open or interval between opening as a function of speed/ rpm.

    You lose the advantages of atomization and distribution if you go the peristaltic route. You would need to find or design your own 12V system, motors (not so much) and drivers (mainly), or get into inverters and dc/dc transfomers to run the whole thing. I would guess this to be equally or more expensive.

    I don't know off hand how high of pressure some of the aftermarket fuel pumps can achieve. You might want to search for Facet or the like.

    Or perhaps the engine builders will offer another creative solution.

    Good luck.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4

    Cool

    Hi there,

    Watson-marlow pumps have been tested succesfully in that type of application for LPG car conversion kit.
    There are different types possible for that flow and motor/gearbox arrangement can be of various technology allowing accurace flow ajustment with engine RPM.
    Peristaltic pump only have a marginal maintenance cost as only a piece of tubing needs replacement now and then. The peristaltic pump price tag is depending on the sofistication of the driving units. But when it comes to project for numerous pumps, Watson-Marlow can offer OEM services. See Web site (www.watson-marlow.co.uk)for more detail and Hidrometos the distributor in portugal can help locally.

    Jean-Claude

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by 123CNC View Post
    With an injector scheme, control the time open or interval between opening as a function of speed/ rpm.
    Where can find such a small injector, I think its no easy

    Quote Originally Posted by 123CNC View Post
    You lose the advantages of atomization and distribution if you go the peristaltic route.
    The mechanical system that I has already, relies on a drop counter to adjust the flow, the main advantage of it, is that just underneath the place where drop is dropped, there is a small copper piece that lets in some air to help the atomization of that drop. I could use this with the peristaltic pump also.

    Quote Originally Posted by 123CNC View Post
    You would need to find or design your own 12V system, motors (not so much) and drivers (mainly), or get into inverters and dc/dc transfomers to run the whole thing. I would guess this to be equally or more expensive.
    Well, thats taken care of already, I am thinking on using an arduino board, they are quite inexpensive and very power-full

    Quote Originally Posted by JCM
    Watson-marlow pumps have been tested succesfully in that type of application for LPG car conversion kit.
    Thats great

    I will take a closer look to watson-marlow pumps, and see if they have any that fits in my project

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4
    Are you busy with one LPG car conversion kit or is it project for more for a company business project?. Because the technical and prices consideration will be quite different and I can probably help you find the right pump type and test it before buying one.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by JCM View Post
    Are you busy with one LPG car conversion kit or is it project for more for a company business project?. Because the technical and prices consideration will be quite different and I can probably help you find the right pump type and test it before buying one.
    Yes, I know the prices will be very different if I buy just one or 100....

    For now its just a small "hobby" project to my car, but I am in contact with the people that built the system that I have on my car. So if all goes ok, and come up with something that really works and its not very expensive, I may have to build a few more, but like I already said, for now, its just to my car.

    If you really can help me with that it would be great

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4
    I'll get in touch with the person who used Watson Marlow Pump for similar application Belgium. I also can contact Watson-Marlow distributor in Losboa to support you locally where are locate in Portugal ?.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by JCM View Post
    I'll get in touch with the person who used Watson Marlow Pump for similar application Belgium. I also can contact Watson-Marlow distributor in Losboa to support you locally where are locate in Portugal ?.
    If you can tell me the pump that person used it would be great

    I am in Évora a town about 100km/1hour of Lisbon. I have already been looking for the distributor in Portugal and it would be easy for me easy to go there, as I go to Lisbon quite often.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by pds View Post
    If you can tell me the pump that person used it would be great

    I am in Évora a town about 100km/1hour of Lisbon. I have already been looking for the distributor in Portugal and it would be easy for me easy to go there, as I go to Lisbon quite often.
    Hi!

    Do you have news for me?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    24
    Jumping in here,
    I have used low flow pumps in the past from this company. http://www.hnp-mikrosysteme.de
    A very good company to deal with also and offer excellent support.
    I used this model http://www.hnp-mikrosysteme.de/hnp-e...ure_series.htm to deliver a flow rate of about 30-80ul/min.
    The pump is smaller than a white board marker. I don't know if your application may require the high pressure series of pumps of not.
    Programmable controllers are available with the pump and according to data sheets will operate on 12v.
    I used this model but it was running on a 24v supply being controlled by a PID loop, http://www.hnp-mikrosysteme.de/pdf/p..._info_S-HD.pdf
    Feed back was coming from a liquid flow meter.
    If these pumps are looked after well they will preform excellently, if the additive you are pumping will adhere to the surfaces of the gears you will need to clean them after by running a solvent through the pumps, for the series i used 30mins at maximum speed suffices.
    Best of luck.
    D_G

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy_G View Post
    Jumping in here,
    I have used low flow pumps in the past from this company. http://www.hnp-mikrosysteme.de
    A very good company to deal with also and offer excellent support.
    I used this model http://www.hnp-mikrosysteme.de/hnp-e...ure_series.htm to deliver a flow rate of about 30-80ul/min.
    The pump is smaller than a white board marker. I don't know if your application may require the high pressure series of pumps of not.
    Programmable controllers are available with the pump and according to data sheets will operate on 12v.
    I used this model but it was running on a 24v supply being controlled by a PID loop, http://www.hnp-mikrosysteme.de/pdf/p..._info_S-HD.pdf
    Feed back was coming from a liquid flow meter.
    If these pumps are looked after well they will preform excellently, if the additive you are pumping will adhere to the surfaces of the gears you will need to clean them after by running a solvent through the pumps, for the series i used 30mins at maximum speed suffices.
    Best of luck.
    D_G
    Hi!

    Those pumps seem very good

    How much did you payed for them and where did you bought it, directly to them or through a distributor?

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