[Mariss Freimanis]

What am I missing? You will be credited back the price of the new drives upon receipt of the two damaged ones.

Mariss

[Dougal]

What am I missing? You will be credited back the price of the new drives upon receipt of the two damaged ones.

Mariss

Here are the two options you've given me:

1. Pay full retail plus shipping up front to get two replacement drives, pay return shipping on the fried ones and wait for a refund on the drives. You haven't mentioned refunding freight either way.

2. Pay return shipping and lose many weeks while I wait for you to receive my fried drives, repair them or send out new ones.

Neither of these rate well on the scale of customer satisfaction, especially for a problem which you've already admitted causing. Remember, my drives are dead because I followed your wiring diagram.
If I send a customer or client some bad/wrong parts then I send them the correct ones with a prepaid and addressed courier bag to return the bad/wrong parts.

The emails I sent to your website remain unanswered. Why does it take a public forum to get a response?

[mrcodewiz]

I don't own any gecko products and I don't know either of you but here is my take on it.

1) you knew there was a discrepancy, you should have contacted them to resolve it before applying power. way cheaper than risking burning up a motor

2)you blew the first one. you should have contactem them before you tried another one because you knew something was wrong.

3)If it were me and they told me how to correct it myself, I would just do it. A trip to the electronics store and a couple bucks for some components - big deal.

4)If it were not possible to correct it myself, I would hope that I could send the drives back and at least be covered for shipping. My caveat to this is I don't know anything about Gecko. I got my stuff from Keling which is a small shop running on tight margins and I'm sure shipping both ways would kill his profit from a couple drives. Maybe they are a big operation and its less of an issue for for them - i dont know.

5)I think they should have answered your email right away even if it was just their offer to replace/repair the drives.

just my .02

[Dougal]

I don't own any gecko products and I don't know either of you but here is my take on it.

1) you knew there was a discrepancy, you should have contacted them to resolve it before applying power. way cheaper than risking burning up a motor
No, I didn't know their was a discrepancy until after I had blown both drives.

2)you blew the first one. you should have contactem them before you tried another one because you knew something was wrong.
I did contact them, I still have not received a reply

3)If it were me and they told me how to correct it myself, I would just do it. A trip to the electronics store and a couple bucks for some components - big deal.
You obviously have no idea how difficult it is to replace tiny surface mount components. These resistors are 1mm wide, 1.5mm long and are 0.5mm from the neighbouring component. See the picture below for an idea on just how small these are.

4)If it were not possible to correct it myself, I would hope that I could send the drives back and at least be covered for shipping. My caveat to this is I don't know anything about Gecko. I got my stuff from Keling which is a small shop running on tight margins and I'm sure shipping both ways would kill his profit from a couple drives. Maybe they are a big operation and its less of an issue for for them - i dont know.

5)I think they should have answered your email right away even if it was just their offer to replace/repair the drives.

just my .02

Comments in blue added above. Picture of the drive below.

[Mariss Freimanis]

Wow. This is such a big deal over two $29 drives.:-)

The email Dougal refers to was sent Thursday, November 27, 2008. The first two sentences read " I have just found the reason I killed two G250's today. It was because I followed the instructions downloaded from the www.geckodrive.com website on 26 August 2008."

1) The email was sent on Thanksgiving Day. He posted (#1) here on Saturday Nov 30.
I replied the same day (#5), identified the part that would suffer damage if the G250 was hooked up wrong and asked him to send the drives back. He said that was inconvenient and wrote (#7) "Is it possible to replace these resistors myself? When I say 'replace myself' I mean I have people who do such jobs." I replied yesterday (#11) where the offending part is located because he indicated he was competent to replace it.

I took 4 days off for Thanksgiving (Nov 27 thru 30). My work computer gets the support emails and I was not there to read the original email. Dougal chose to deal with the issue in a public forum and I accommodated him. No reply to his email is warranted since it would only duplicate what I posted here and which he has read.

2) The drives were purchased on Aug 25 and blown up over 3 months later. The manual was corrected on September 3 when the error was caught. He had a 3 month window to download a corrected manual which he never exercised.

3) Dougal, we have a 4th option. You are a dissatisfied customer and I want to leave you unharmed from doing business with us. Return all 4 drives you purchased from us. We will credit your credit card account the purchase price, what you paid for shipping to get them to you and the return shipping to get the 4 drives back here. This option is for all 4 drives or none at all.

We got off on the wrong foot here and it can't be helped now. I hope this squares the situation so we can go forwards each in our own direction.

Mariss

[Dougal]

Wow. This is such a big deal over two $29 drives.:-)
They are currently listed at sixty one US dollars each on your website. If you are offering me replacements at twenty nine US dollars each then I will take them as a guesture of goodwill.
http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14472

The email Dougal refers to was sent Thursday, November 27, 2008. The first two sentences read " I have just found the reason I killed two G250's today. It was because I followed the instructions downloaded from the www.geckodrive.com website on 26 August 2008."

1) The email was sent on Thanksgiving Day. He posted (#1) here on Saturday Nov 30.
I replied the same day (#5), identified the part that would suffer damage if the G250 was hooked up wrong and asked him to send the drives back. He said that was inconvenient and wrote (#7) "Is it possible to replace these resistors myself? When I say 'replace myself' I mean I have people who do such jobs." I replied yesterday (#11) where the offending part is located because he indicated he was competent to replace it.
Due to different time zones, the date on that email is 1 day ahead of the US time this board runs on. That email was sent and received on Wednesday 26th November your time.

I took 4 days off for Thanksgiving (Nov 27 thru 30). My work computer gets the support emails and I was not there to read the original email. Dougal chose to deal with the issue in a public forum and I accommodated him. No reply to his email is warranted since it would only duplicate what I posted here and which he has read.
I posted in a public forum to warn others of the potential to blow up their drives. The risk is a very real one, how many incorrect wiring diagrams were downloaded? Have you made an attempt to warn customers? I received nothing in three months.

I would have much preferred you to answer my emails, I even asked several times in this thread for an email reply. But you didn't and still haven't

2) The drives were purchased on Aug 25 and blown up over 3 months later. The manual was corrected on September 3 when the error was caught. He had a 3 month window to download a corrected manual which he never exercised.
I had no reason to believe the manual I downloaded was incorrect. Should I have reason to doubt a manufacturers wiring diagram?

3) Dougal, we have a 4th option. You are a dissatisfied customer and I want to leave you unharmed from doing business with us. Return all 4 drives you purchased from us. We will credit your credit card account the purchase price, what you paid for shipping to get them to you and the return shipping to get the 4 drives back here. This option is for all 4 drives or none at all.

We got off on the wrong foot here and it can't be helped now. I hope this squares the situation so we can go forwards each in our own direction.

I would prefer you to take responsibility for your incorrect manual and assist in repairing the damage without costing your customers further.

Mariss

Answers in blue

Apologies for all the edits, for some reason prices got automatically edited out.

[Dougal]

An update.

Gecko are still refusing to communicate either here or by email. I can't send drives off to people who won't even return emails or confirm costs involved.

As a result I have sent my two dead drives to an electronics workshop for repair (I don't have the gear required to replace surface mount resistors). I will hopefully have them back soon for testing.

Geckos response to this problem has been pathetic. My drives died because I followed their instructions, throwing a tantrum and refusing to answer emails is not an appropriate response.

In future I'd advise people to take their chances buying from ebay, going straight to a reputable manufacturer and dealer has cost me both time and money.

Attached are both G250 wiring diagrams, the bad one I downloaded from the gecko website on August 26th, the same day I placed my order for four G250's.
The corrected diagram is also attached.

Hopefully this post can save someone else the frustration I have been through with these drives and this company.

[Dougal]

Comments from the tech who has repaired the boards:

Glad to be of assistance for you guys. Holding the board with the black header to the right, I replaced the resistor labelled 330 which is located on the left. The other resistor, labelled 30C tested ok and has not been damaged.

330 = 33 ohms
30C = 20000 ohms

The 30C had a value of 19600 which is within 5%.
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/Ch...Resistors.html

One of the boards had an excessive build-up of solder balls on side two (where the kapton tape is). I removed as much as possible as this would potentially caused shorting issues some stage down the line.

Regards,
Karl.

[Dougal]

Dougal,


Is Kapton east or west of Java?

PDB

Eh what? Sorry not sure what you're asking.
The Kapton tape I presume is this stuff:
http://www2.dupont.com/Kapton/en_US/index.html

It appears to be used on the underside of the board to insulate the board from the components which contact the heat-sink.

[CarveOne]

Kapton tape is used for insulation between layers of wire in transformer coils and as insulators between components that need isolated heatsinks. The plastic material has a high breakdown voltage rating as compared to other plastic materials and can transfer heat fairly well in thin layers.

Solder balls can be left on circuit boards that use surface mount components that are mounted with solder paste. In most cases it is cleaned off during manufacturing processes but it is not uncommon to find traces of them even from the best board assembly factories. It happens most often when a few heat sensitive or oddly shaped components must be mounted manually after the board has been through surface mounting IR ovens. Post-installation inspection doesn't always catch the remaining solder balls that may be hiding under these components. Hand soldering the component leads with wire solder sometimes creates small balls of solder also. Solder balls are not desireable, but it does happen. They don't always create failures later.

CarveOne
(Who has retired from 40+ years in the electronics business)

[Dougal]

Kapton tape is used for insulation between layers of wire in transformer coils and as insulators between components that need isolated heatsinks. The plastic material has a high breakdown voltage rating as compared to other plastic materials and can transfer heat fairly well in thin layers.

Solder balls can be left on circuit boards that use surface mount components that are mounted with solder paste. In most cases it is cleaned off during manufacturing processes but it is not uncommon to find traces of them even from the best board assembly factories. It happens most often when a few heat sensitive or oddly shaped components must be mounted manually after the board has been through surface mounting IR ovens. Post-installation inspection doesn't always catch the remaining solder balls that may be hiding under these components. Hand soldering the component leads with wire solder sometimes creates small balls of solder also. Solder balls are not desireable, but it does happen. They don't always create failures later.

CarveOne
(Who has retired from 40+ years in the electronics business)

Interesting, thanks.

[Dougal]

Dougal,

How are the G250's working now?

The loose balls should not be to much of a problem, just order the Gecko jock straps next time.

BDB

Haven't got the fixed ones back yet, probably early next week. Hopefully I'll get time this weekend to move the bench test setup to the mill and get it moving.

[keebler303]

I have a few comments:

Are all gecko drives shipped with a manual? All the ones I have ordered direct have. If an incorrect manual was supplied with the drives, it cannot be expected that the customer download the corrected version before wiring. The 3 month delay between purchase and use is not uncommon. I currently have 7 gecko drives not wired, all purchased between 3-18 months ago.

-To Dougal

I think you should calm down a bit. Mariss said you could buy replacement drives and you would be credited when the damaged ones are returned. I take that to mean full purchase price, which is the amount you paid, including shipping. If you wanted to be reimbursed for your cost to ship the damaged ones back, I'm sure Mariss would have worked something out with you. You have had a rather condescending attitude, people are much more willing to help if you don't jump down their throat, he said he made a mistake, give the guy a break.

I don't think Mariss needs to reply to your email. He addressed all of your concerns in this thread, why do you need an email too? Also I think it is unreasonable for you to expect an instant email reply. Most companies take a day or so to get back to you if you send an email. If you want instant help, call. I understand this is hard when you are halfway around the world but it is still an option. Before Mariss had time to get back to your email, you had already gone public, so he replied here, as he saw it first.

-To Mariss

Why does blowing the resistor open make the drive not function? If it is only used for powering the opto in a 540, It shouldn't be needed for Dougal's setup. Is it used for something more? Must be.

Matt

[Dougal]

I have a few comments:

Are all gecko drives shipped with a manual? All the ones I have ordered direct have. If an incorrect manual was supplied with the drives, it cannot be expected that the customer download the corrected version before wiring. The 3 month delay between purchase and use is not uncommon. I currently have 7 gecko drives not wired, all purchased between 3-18 months ago.

I did not receive a manual with mine. So I downloaded one, it was incorrect and it cost me to repair the damage.

-To Dougal

I think you should calm down a bit. Mariss said you could buy replacement drives and you would be credited when the damaged ones are returned. I take that to mean full purchase price, which is the amount you paid, including shipping. If you wanted to be reimbursed for your cost to ship the damaged ones back, I'm sure Mariss would have worked something out with you. You have had a rather condescending attitude, people are much more willing to help if you don't jump down their throat, he said he made a mistake, give the guy a break.

Mariss has been unable to answer my emails or confirm costs. You may take a refund to mean full price including shipping, but Mariss may not. He hasn't been able to answer my questions about shipping costs.

You say give him a break, he has had almost a month, what would you like me to do?
Email him again?

I don't think Mariss needs to reply to your email. He addressed all of your concerns in this thread, why do you need an email too? Also I think it is unreasonable for you to expect an instant email reply. Most companies take a day or so to get back to you if you send an email. If you want instant help, call. I understand this is hard when you are halfway around the world but it is still an option. Before Mariss had time to get back to your email, you had already gone public, so he replied here, as he saw it first.

These points have already been covered. But to recap.

I am a day ahead due to my time-zone. I sent emails on wednesday and posted up here on saturday to warn any other users of the potential to blow up their drives. If you read the first post here, this is quite clear.

Do you not think making people aware of a problem so they can avoid it is a good action?
Only gecko know how many bad wiring diagrams were downloaded, but each one has the potential to blow up a drive if the owners remain unaware.

I did not expect an instant reply, but I did expect a reply. To date none has been received.
Sending drives back to a place that is firstly purposefully avoiding contact and secondly cannot even confirm costs involved is just crazy.

I have had the drives repaired at my cost locally, I now have 8 spare 33 ohm resistors (they came in a pack of 10) but I don't expect to need them. With power applied they now light up like they should, but I haven't checked motion yet.

[Dougal]

Just an update to this thread.

Last week I found the original wiring diagrams which were sent out with my G250's.
I know they are the originals because:
1. They are on green paper.
2. They are on letter size, here I use nothing but A4.

The wiring diagram gecko sent with the drives is the one with errors.

[Mariss Freimanis]

See message #9 posted by you:

"The CNC Brain seems to still work okay with one of my remaining G250's.
Big relief, there must be some decent internal protectin inside that thing."

Has something changed since Dec 19, 2008 when you last posted? Your CNC Brain was undamaged, you chose not to have us repair the drives for free including return shipping, instead you repaired the drives yourself per my instructions by replacing one resistor.

What can I do for you today?

Mariss

[Dougal]

See message #9 posted by you:

"The CNC Brain seems to still work okay with one of my remaining G250's.
Big relief, there must be some decent internal protectin inside that thing."

Has something changed since Dec 19, 2008 when you last posted? Your CNC Brain was undamaged, you chose not to have us repair the drives for free including return shipping, instead you repaired the drives yourself per my instructions by replacing one resistor.

What can I do for you today?

Mariss

Yes something has changed.
Back then it was a bench test of a single axis. It jogged forwards and backwards okay.
But now with all three axis connected it has issues.

At this stage I still cannot rule out damage to the CNC Brain from following the official gecko wiring diagram. The one that resulted in feeding 12v back down the brains "step" connection.

I got the drives repaired myself as gecko were refusing all communication. Emails were never answered, questions about shipping cost in this thread were not answered.

Free return shipping (or a shipping refund) was never offered, the history in this thread shows that clearly.

[Mariss Freimanis]

If the CNC Brain was damaged, the STP output drivers would not 'jog' anything yet they jog just fine for you. We don't manufacture the CNC Brain so I can't help you with it's application. You were offered free repairs on our drives including free return shipping and you were offered a full refund if you were dissatisfied with them. You declined both offers.

I asked you on another forum here today "Do I have any concrete requests or demands?". You answered, "Not right now."

So Dougal, 5 months later here you are, at it again, without a coherent question nor seeking a comprehensible remedy. You don't have any because your drive and CNC Brain hardware works. You are having other issues.

If you had a less hostile, brittle and confrontational attitude, I would try my level best to help with your application but frankly I have no incentive to try. The adage "honey draws more flies than vinegar" has never resonated with you it seems.

Mariss

[Dougal]

If the CNC Brain was damaged, the STP output drivers would not 'jog' anything yet they jog just fine for you. We don't manufacture the CNC Brain so I can't help you with it's application. You were offered free repairs on our drives including free return shipping and you were offered a full refund if you were dissatisfied with them. You declined both offers.

I asked you on another forum here today "Do I have any concrete requests or demands?". You answered, "Not right now."

So Dougal, 5 months later here you are, at it again, without a coherent question nor seeking a comprehensible remedy. You don't have any because your drive and CNC Brain hardware works. You are having other issues.

If you had a less hostile, brittle and confrontational attitude, I would try my level best to help with your application but frankly I have no incentive to try. The adage "honey draws more flies than vinegar" has never resonated with you it seems.

Mariss

My CNC Brain does not jog properly, maybe it does have other issues, I will not know eother way until it works correctly. At this point in time I still do not have a working CNC Brain or drives.
I did not receive a clear offer of free shipping and repair, this thread shows that.

This thread also shows geckos refusal to answer emails or answer my questions about shipping.

You expected me to ship you my drives when you wouldn't even return my email or answer my questions?

My bitter attitude is the result of a company which could not even return an email to a customer having problems with their product.
Your offer of a refund was made in spite, it was not an offer of help. Again this thread shows that.

To now chastise your customers for being dissatisfied with your service (or rather lack of) is quite enlightening.:nono:

[Mariss Freimanis]

You are a vexatious person. You cannot be reasoned with. You have been responded to beyond reason and beyond the value of anything you bought from us. You don't like the replies nor our product so return what you bought and you will get a full refund for the purchase price. Don't ever buy anything from us again. We don't want your business. Is that clear enough?

Jeez,.. We get one a year. He gets the previously open 2008 prize.

Mariss