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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    131

    Les Paul Hollow Body Copy

    I am interested in building a Les Paul Hollowbody copy. I am very good with CAD/CAM and can create good models and tool paths and am looking for some folks wanting to collaborate on the project.

    I am looking for anything that could kick start the project--anything from a set of plans to CAD models.

    Anyone interested?

    You can check out my photo gallery to get a flavor of the work I have done on f-style mandolins.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    264
    greg
    I have a lp style template and measurements??????

    let me know if you want any help?????????

  3. #3
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    Jun 2004
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    131
    I have plans for a les paul solid body, but I would like to make a hollow body, but can't find any plans. Are your templates for a solid or hollow body?

    Thanks,

    Greg

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    61
    Just carve the mahogany bottom to the minimum (.5" bottom and sides leave the center block for the neck joint, pickups, and bridge/TP) and also carve out the bottom of the maple top under the bottom chambering and you'll have a hollowbody.

    Gibson had a flash promo of their ES-336 which is pretty much a doublecut LP hollowbody. It shows a picture of the mahogany being chambered on a Komo which is pretty much the same as they used on the Cloud 9 chambered LP's. You might have to do a search to find it.

    Edit: here's the link http://www.gibsoncustom.com/cs336/menu.html

  5. #5
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    Jun 2004
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    131

    Love the idea

    I really like the idea of the chambered Les Paul. What I wanted in a hollow body was a guitar that is a little lighter than one with a solid mohagany body. Typically the hollowbody gutairs are larger bodied though. I think with your Cloud 9 approach I have a win-win. I like the look and size of the traditional Gibson Les Paul, with less weight. From what you said it seems I could simply make a standard les paul with material removed from the inside to leave a half inch around all the chanbered areas, maybe leave more meat near the neck for strength. When the top and bottom are glued and the binding is in place, it would look just like a les paul, but lighter.

    Greg

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    61
    A Gibson Cloud-9 Les Paul is a fully chambered LP built on their historic reissue products ('59, '58, '57 black beauty etc). It was a custom run commissioned by the top 3 custom shop dealers so you won't find the usual product info on the Gibson site and Gibson recently put a gun to their dealers heads and made them stop promoting their guitars via the net. Basically think about removing every bit of mahogany that isn't structurally needed. The CR-9's weigh in the mid 7 lbs range and the tone is exceptional.

    Sample chambering (pocket) for the body before the top is glued on. Gibson doesn't carve the bottom of the maple top but you'd want to do that for an archtop (hollow w/ f-holes) rendition. They made something called the LP Florentine that had those.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails chambering pocket.PNG  

  7. #7
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    Jun 2004
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    131
    I like the look of the LP Florentine. Do you know if the back of the guitar is also carved? The chambered LP has a flat back, but most archtop guitars have a carved back.

  8. #8
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    Jan 2004
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    61
    The back of the florentine was normal flat backed mahogany. I have never seen the inside of one. The ES-336 has a carved back. They must use a vacuum fixture that holds the arched back so they can carve the top and cutouts.

  9. #9
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    Jun 2004
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    131
    I think I would do it in this order of operations: first carve the insides of the maple and mohogany using square blocks. I would have holes out near the corners drilled through both for position alignment. Then I would glue the two together. At this point you would have a rectangular block. I would carve the top, but not cut out the outline. flip it over, using the tooling holes for alignmet and machine the back. I would take it off the router and do a good pass of sanding, then throw it back on the CNC tocut out the f holes. The last thing I would do would be to take it over to the scroll saw and cut out the outline. This way I would always have a flat surface to attach it to my router table.

    The first thing I am going to do is capture my plans in my CAD system. I have a set of LP plans I got from Stewart MacDonalds. I will use your suggestion for making the hollow out. I need to think on the carved back. I really like the look of the f-holes. Maybe I will go with the LP florientine as a model.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    61
    The stewmac plans are of a '54 or '55 black beauty. They are good plans although their neck joint bugs me. Definately not like the '54 goldtop or later LP's.

    If your cad/cam can handle it the best way to do the hollow insides would be to create inside surfaces that use a copy of the top or back arch contour so that the top thickness is 1/4" following the arch and the back 1/2". That changes it from a simple pocketing operation to a surfacing operation but they can be left relatively rough.

    I didn't follow why you need to cut out the body with a scroll saw. How's about a hollow form (mold) for the arched back to sit in while the CNC profiles the body.

  11. #11
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    Jun 2003
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    2103
    gregmary,

    Your process for machining the body is nearly what I have planned for my LP.
    I will forgo the scroll or band saw though and let the router cut the profile of the body. by leaving three tabs in place the body will not move from our fixture position and they can then easily be trimmed off. I am trying to achive the light weight guitar but with an entirely different approach. I am using a combination of obeche, balsa and carbon fiber composite. I am doing a double cut. If I can help in any way let me know.
    Mike
    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.

  12. #12
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    Jun 2004
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    131
    What woods are you using where? How does the composite fit in? How light do you want the guitar--sounds like your are designing a jet wing I am going to use birds eye maple for the top plate and mohogany for the body and neck. My cad program has a "shell" command used for designing plastic parts. I will design the top contour, then "shell" it our so there is a constant thickness throughout.

  13. #13
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    Jun 2004
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    131
    I was at the music store today and was looking at some different neck atachments. What type of neck attachments do you like. Some of the necks that I saw looked like the neck was off of a different model as they did not flow into the body at all.

    My CAD program has a "shell" command that allows me to create the inside surface as you describe.

    I use the router to route out about 85% of the outline as a final operation. The remaining 15% are tabs that connect the body to the waste material that has the tooling holes in it. The tooling holes align the buck to the router table. I use the scroll saw to cut these tabs and seperate the body when everything is done. At this point I can no longer use the router without making a special fixture, this is why it is the final operation.

    Greg

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    61
    You have to use a mortise and tenon because your neck is angled back to match the carve of the top. You might be interested in comparing the neck joint of a Les Paul (Gibson in general) to that of a Paul Reed Smith. The Gibson body has a block sticking up to mate with the neck which has a matching heel and the tenon that you can't see. The PRS body lines flow continuously without the block area for the mortise. The neck mates with the body along its curves; the mortise is just a hole in the top side. The PRS style is much easier to manufacture because you don't have to accurately align the block with the heel of the neck. Gibson customer expect the traditional design from the handmade era. You can angle the tenon or slant the mortise its your choice. Think about how you'll hold your neck to machine it and how you'll machine the various angles before you choose.

    Your approach to machining the body sounds workable to me. I've got LP's if you need a measurement or something.

  15. #15
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    Jun 2003
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    2103
    gergmary,

    I am using a .625" layer of balsa as the middle of three layers of wood. Each layer of wood is seperated by an .011" thick layer of carbon 2X2 twill cloth and all this is vacuum bagged together. I then split the body and added a vertical layer between the two halves. I now have carbon going both horizontal and vertical. The neck will be made the same way then carved using my 4th axis to rotate the blank. I will have to do some fixturing to get all the cuts on the neck but I think it is possible. The body will be machine using the same locating system you described. You mentioned "buck". Are you doing this with a manual router or cnc?

    I am building this for my niece and she needed a light weight guitar. I will cover the body and neck with carbon fiber so there won't be any pretty wood on this one. It is to be painted purple???? When I build one for myself it will have the nicest piece of wood I can afford.

    Mike
    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    131
    Mike,

    Sounds like quite a process. I think it would look pretty cool if you could see the carbon fibre on the finished body. Or even the different layers of wood and carbon fibre inside. It is shame to hide all of that internal structure under a coat of purple paint (I don't have anything against purple, I'm sure my daughter would LOVE it). Is the guitar full size or 3/4? I take it she plans to be play it standing up behind a microphone.

    I'm not sure why I used the word 'buck' A buck is a machined prototype that a mold is taken from. Often using a vacumn bag process similiar to what you describe.

    I have a three axis router, but I often design my parts using a 4-axis tool path. I then manual flip the part over--my 4th axis is limited to 180 degrees . The way I machine necks is to secure them to a fixture with the back sticking up (the fingerboard covers the holes where the blank is secured to the fixture).

    Take care,

    Greg

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    131
    Randman,

    Thanks for the info on the neck. I will search out a Paul Reed Smith. I am not sure how you can help me, unless you have the point data for the contours of the les paul carved top. I am now creating the CAD model for the carved top and am trying to decide how to section it so it is managable from a modeling stand point. I modeled the carved top plate for an f-5 mandolin. This was not too difficult because the shape and profiles of an f-5 mandolin are well documentd since the shape and thickness profiles (as well as tap tuning) are so important to its sound. I was able to find complete profiling for the mandolin from several sources. The Les Paul plans I have simply show the top view outline and the profile view from the side down the middle. I have been visiting a local music store and the guys have been fairly accepting of my repeated caressing of thier les pauls. Using touch is the only way I have to get to know the curves. If I had access to one, I would throw it on cnc machine and run a point probe over it.

    Take care,

    Greg

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    61
    Top carves can be built from offsets of the body curve at various elevations finally with a surface draped over them. The LP has a dip (dish) at about .5" in from the edge that is -1/32". It does not extend north of the waist. The dish rises back to the elevation of the rim at 1" and then rises up to .5" (above rim elevation) at the flat plateau (3" in) that the tailpiece and bridge sits on. That plateau slants back towards the neck joint area which is a 16th or so above the rim elevation. The pickups are on the gradual slant. So at the top of the guitar crosswise it rises towards the fingerboard and then back down the other side. Hopefully I'm making sense and you can relate it to the landmarks in the stewmac drawing. I prefer to understand the classic designs and then take my liberties from there

  19. #19
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    Jun 2003
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    2103
    greg do you not have a cad drawing of one? I have a Rhino file if you would lke it. It is a double cut away but you are welcome to it if you want. I used the Stewmac plans as well as using a copy of a LP by another company to get my starting points. I don't know for sure how true my design is to the original LP but it is nice looking. I will try to attach a jpg so you can see it.

    Mike
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails almost.jpg   guit.jpg  
    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    2103
    greg I forgot to mention how I intend to do my neck and you may be able to help me out here. My 4th axis is a full 360 degree so I can reach nearly anywhere I want. I had though I would just mount the neck blank between centers and carve everything I could including the headstock. I had also though of carving the headstock first using fixtures so I could position the holes for the tuners with the cnc. I could then use the top and back surfaces of the head along with the holes to build a fixturefor mounting the blank in the machine. Either way I will have to do either two or three setups with fixtures to completely do the neck on the cnc.

    Mike
    No greater love can a man have than this, that he give his life for a friend.

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