[cadmonkey]

Ok - Some background...

I've been suffering from some debilitating abdominal, leg and back pain that the doctors are having trouble identifying and rectifying so I've been loaded on pain killers and sedatives (to keep me from stressing out) so I haven't been using my CNC'd X3 much for the last 4 months. I got it last year just before Christmas and for 8+ months used it at least 1 out of every three days and religiously oiled the ways and used fogging oil to keep the table and exposed metal coated, and always park the table/saddle in the center to keep the Y ways covered and the X just try and balance the dead weight so as not to fatigue anything. I usually park the Z near the top so the way cover I have for Z keeps dust on the Z to a minimum while inactive.

Sounds all good right? Well evidently the fogging oil is not sufficient for the recent weather anomaly we experienced. The weather for most of December was below freezing, getting down to several days in a row with ~15°F highs, near zero lows and then we got an extreme southern blast hitting 60°F for a high last weekend. My brother had some stuff he was doing in the garage so he opened it all up to air it out and let some warm air in. The garage isn't heated or insulated (with the exception of the roof and the garage door panels) so everything in it was well below the dewpoint, including my dormant mill. I stepped out in the garage tonight and was horrified - much of the exposed iron (Z way and table) had a patchy light orange tint to it.

So I've sprayed a coating of fogging oil onto it again, and am planning to load up on the painkillers and get down and dirty and clean it up tomorrow. I plan to grab a bottle of quality way oil (the no sag variety to local tooling supplier carries) to coat everything with afterwards. To clean it I anticipate using some fogging oil or WD-40 with some soft scotchbrite scouring pads to basically just buff the flowering off and make it as clean as possible. Any advice on the cleanup - I don't want to degrade performance obviously, I hope the screws weren't affected, but I didn't dig too far. As a more prevetative measure I am considering getting a length of heat tape and coiling it under the base casting and up the column and possibly putting in a thermostat so the mill stays above the dew point to prevent another mishap since I don't know how much longer I'll be unproductive. Even a simple 40 to 100W incandescent bulb under the base might be sufficient to keep it warm - I've read of people using a 100W bulb left running in the hull of their PWC's during winter storage so maybe that'd be an option.

I guess I'm just looking for any cleaning or prevention steps - I probably could simply tarp over the mill but I fear that might trap any moisture underneath if it gets warm again and a cold draft cold coat the inside with another round of moisture that'd drip onto the mill.

I nearly cried when I saw that 'lovey' orange coating on my precision tool. (Mood swings have also been common for me over the last few months but I think even in a great mood I'd have felt chopped off at the knees with this).

Comments, suggestions, flaming, etc. all appreciated. Thanks.

Greg

[HackMax]

Sorry to hear you're still not up to par Greg. I am in the same boat as you I think although where my mill is located I must deal with moisture when the temperature climbs. Everything gets soaking wet out there when the temps get up there. I keep all my machines out there oiled up with a coating of 90w gear lube. The stuff is plenty sticky to keep the moisture under control and the motorcycles out there are tarped with a 100w light under them. You only need to turn them on when you see a temperature break that might cause a sweat. The tarp traps the heat long enough to drive off any moisture. I used to oil up the mill with a coating of 90w dino gear lube but now I have a coolant system that uses synthetic coolant and I hate to mix the two together. I'll have to grab some synthetic gear lube soon because I even use the gear lube as way oil. Seems to work very well.

Rick

[Crevice Reamer]

Hi Greg. Sorry to hear you are still in pain. Hope you are well soon!

If you DO decide to go with a heat tape, make sure it is fastened in continuous total contact with metal. Heat tape loops out in the air tend to overheat and catch FIRE. You sure don't need that.

CR.

[Oldboy]

I can relate with your pain. At work I fell & wipe out my right arm & sholder in June. If i did not grab on with my right hand & save my ass. I would have ben dead in June. I just learn another one died at work in Dec.
I just had surgery in November on my wrist & hand. My X-Mass & Birthday suck.
I might be back to work some day? Doc said i will never be 100% better. It sucks i know!
About the rust? Use WD40 to remove rust?
Better yet.
Disasemble it.
The fast way to remove rust is phosferic acid and remove the acid with water.
Then dry all parts. And coat them. WD40 if left on will not protect parts.
Can you put a electric heater in? The idea is just keep the room warm enough to remove humidity moisture. Do not just put a tarp on it.
That would trap the humidity mosture in and rust the hell out of it.
You need air curculating & warmer than 32F.
I have a heater in my shop. It works for me.

[cadmonkey]

Heating the whole garage is out of the equation - the walls are too inefficient and it'd cost me more than its worth. Hadn't considered a gear oil - that might be cheaper and easier than going with the 'geniune' way oil - it is a trek out to the tool shop. Some synthetic gear lube would be a reasonable compromise I think. I've had a lot of experience with heat tapes (used to do building maintenance for a restaurant chain and I used it on a lot of pipes and downspouts. Depends on the quality. I used to get some good teflon shielded, SS braided that had a broad range of W/ft. It would be easy to get great contact with the base and column without interfering with the movement mechanics. I'm queasy about going to the extreme of straight phosphoric acid yet - I'll try a can of Coke (yeah - it's got phosphoric acid in it too) first, or some naval jelly. The coating is light enough that scrubbing with scotchbrite and wd-40 should be enough - I want to go as gentle as possible to start and get more aggressive as I go. I've used phosphoric before for cleaning parts but it's been on steel so maybe it would be safer for cast iron. Once I get a flood enclosure designed and built (a long long time away) heating that and circulating the air within it for a reasonable cost would be a possibility.

[jacmarhal]

Sorry about your health troubles.
I've had similar problems with cast iron surfaces and moisture due to extreme temperature variations. What I have found that works extremely well is a product developed by Boeing Aviation for long term metal protection. It is called Boeshield T-9. Another product that I use for the initial removal of rust is Rust Free (rust and stain removal) also made by the same company. I've tried other products such as WD-40, Bostik TopCote etc..., but the T-9 seems to work the best.
Hope this helps.

[cadmonkey]

Since the bedtime dose is kicking in I went out and tested my 1st line of attack - WD40 and a combination of rag & scotchbrite - works a peach. With a flashlight I was able to get a better look and its not nearly as bad as I first thought. A slight amount on the X screw where the supported end is at the journal for the bearing, not a critical issue, it's an area that didn't get lubed often (I use a pure lithium on the screws) since it never gets close to eaither of the X nuts. Y is pristine (very little airflow into the Y zone with the way covers and the bearing/stepper mount and backsupport. The Z looks heavy above the head, but below it looks minimal, even less than the table top which cleaned up beautifully. Even the el-cheapo commie vise cleaned up nice. Part of the problem I suspect is the last item I used it for was a rapid run of legs for a set of cornhole boards that my brother promised to a friend back in November and there was still some sawdust hanging around. Guess I didn't clean up as well as I should have. I am sure it soaked up and held moisture around that would've just beaded off otherwise. (naughty/lazy me). A complete teardown is in the near future, I've fiddled with getting my optical limits wired up, just need to pot them into their delrin bases with epoxy and they are ready to bolt on, which will require removal of the table and saddle so I'll get what is visible and critical now and then when those are ready and I'm up to it, I'll do a tear down and probably soak with Coke(R) to strip anything left. There definitely isn't any pitting on what I just inspected, only question is the Z screw...but looking in the shroud the column only shows any flora at the front 1/3rd so I think I may have dodged the proberbial icy bullet. I can sleep easier now. Now my mind will just work out a prevention solution whilst I sleep.

[Kalvin]

Hey Cadmonkey,

I haven't tried this but.........

I've seen those dehumidifiers (de-moisturizers) for motor homes. Its like a chemical bag that will take the water out of the air.....not the electric type for your house.

Could you get a big plastic bag.....seal your mill up and place one of these inside the bag?

Or collect enough of those silica gel bags that they package electronics with. I know a lady that was collecting those. She'd dry them out in the oven. Then she'd pack them in plastic bags with flowers to dry them out for her art projects. Amazing what she could do with them. After she used them she dry them out again and re-use them.


Failing that, take it apart, store it in your house for the cold season. Mine came apart pretty fast. The chunks are easy to handle.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers, hope you get well soon. Kalvin

[HackMax]

Hey Cadmonkey,

I haven't tried this but.........

I've seen those dehumidifiers (de-moisturizers) for motor homes. Its like a chemical bag that will take the water out of the air.....not the electric type for your house.

Could you get a big plastic bag.....seal your mill up and place one of these inside the bag?

Or collect enough of those silica gel bags that they package electronics with. I know a lady that was collecting those. She'd dry them out in the oven. Then she'd pack them in plastic bags with flowers to dry them out for her art projects. Amazing what she could do with them. After she used them she dry them out again and re-use them.


Failing that, take it apart, store it in your house for the cold season. Mine came apart pretty fast. The chunks are easy to handle.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers, hope you get well soon. Kalvin

Hey Kalvin, I'll back you up on that one too. One year I sealed my motorcycle up in a plastic bag and put a DampRid canister (similar to silica gel) inside on the floor and that worked like a charm. When it was time to remove the bag the canister was almost full of water and the bike was always dry. The only reason I don't do this anymore is because I need access to the bike every so often now. That DampRid is some awesome stuff.

Rick

[scudzuki]

I had the same thing happen to my mill and lathe, dew developing on a cold machine exposed to warm air. The orange discoloration that occured on surfaces "treated" with WD40 mostly wiped right off, leaving a little discoloration but no pitting. I bought some stuff from McMaster call LPS3. Smells nasty and I hate like hell to spray everything down with it as it leaves a pretty heavy cosmoline like coating that I have to wipe off before working, but I have not seen any more rust (even though I've seen the condensation forming on top of the LPS3 coating). I can't afford to heat my garage either.
Joe

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I had the same thing happen to my mill and lathe, dew developing on a cold machine exposed to warm air. The orange discoloration that occured on surfaces "treated" with WD40 mostly wiped right off, leaving a little discoloration but no pitting. I bought some stuff from McMaster call LPS3. Smells nasty and I hate like hell to spray everything down with it as it leaves a pretty heavy cosmoline like coating that I have to wipe off before working, but I have not seen any more rust (even though I've seen the condensation forming on top of the LPS3 coating). I can't afford to heat my garage either.
Joe

Heating your shop is not necessary, as long as you can manage to NOT let a lot of outside air in when the machines are cold. Come in, and immediately close the door, and you'll be fine. NEVER open a full-sized garage door when it's cold, or you WILL get condensation.

There are only two rules you need to follow to keep your machines from rusting:

1) If you heat your shop, do it ONLY with with an electric heater, or an externally vented combustion heater. NEVER use an unvented combustion heater - like inexpensive free-standing propane, gas, kerosene or wood heaters. Any combustion heater without positive ventilation of the combustion products to outside the building WILL add an enormous amount of moisture to the air, which WILL condense out when the room cools down.

2) NEVER open doors or windows when the temperature outside is more than a few degrees higher than the temperature inside. This will admit outside moisture, which WILL condenx out when the room cools down.

I live in a VERY humid area, and by religiously following the above simple rules, I've never gotten any condensation on any of my machines. I heat the shop up with electric space heaters before I go out there every morning, and let it cool off every night. Never a speck of rust on anything. I use nothing but a quick spritz with WD-40 in a spray bottle as rust-proofing for the machines (paste wax for the table saw table).

Regards,
Ray L.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Oldboy]

Kalvin bag idea sounds like the cheapest way to go.
I don't have the long cold winters. Its in the upper 70's F today.
So for me heating is not too expensive as it would be in colder States.
But i can understand that if you just heated it up say once a week with elec. space heaters. That would dry the inside very good. A dry air inside your shop is what you need. Every one has good ideas.
If all you have is this one item use the bag idea. But if you have other items you realy need to invest in a heater. Replacement cost?

[scudzuki]

Heating your shop is not necessary, as long as you can manage to NOT let a lot of outside air in when the machines are cold. Come in, and immediately close the door, and you'll be fine. NEVER open a full-sized garage door when it's cold, or you WILL get condensation.

There are only two rules you need to follow to keep your machines from rusting:

1) If you heat your shop, do it ONLY with with an electric heater, or an externally vented combustion heater. NEVER use an unvented combustion heater - like inexpensive free-standing propane, gas, kerosene or wood heaters. Any combustion heater without positive ventilation of the combustion products to outside the building WILL add an enormous amount of moisture to the air, which WILL condense out when the room cools down.

2) NEVER open doors or windows when the temperature outside is more than a few degrees higher than the temperature inside. This will admit outside moisture, which WILL condenx out when the room cools down.

I live in a VERY humid area, and by religiously following the above simple rules, I've never gotten any condensation on any of my machines. I heat the shop up with electric space heaters before I go out there every morning, and let it cool off every night. Never a speck of rust on anything. I use nothing but a quick spritz with WD-40 in a spray bottle as rust-proofing for the machines (paste wax for the table saw table).

Regards,
Ray L.

Regards,
Ray L.

Agreed it is best to dash in and out, closing the door behind you. Unfortunately with my current arrangement I have to let myself in via a garage bay door, so there is always some mixing. I use a space heater (electric). It is around freezing in SE Pennsylvania these days but the space heater makes it workable. Nevertheless, I keep the machines protected with a good rust preventative. Cheap insurance IMO.
Joe

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Kalvin bag idea sounds like the cheapest way to go.
I don't have the long cold winters. Its in the upper 70's F today.
So for me heating is not too expensive as it would be in colder States.
But i can understand that if you just heated it up say once a week with elec. space heaters. That would dry the inside very good. A dry air inside your shop is what you need. Every one has good ideas.
If all you have is this one item use the bag idea. But if you have other items you realy need to invest in a heater. Replacement cost?

"if you just heated it up say once a week with elec. space heaters. That would dry the inside very good." - No, not true. Heating the air by itself does absolutely *nothing* to "dry" it. In fact, if anything it will do just the opposite, as taking cold air and heating it reduces the relative humidity, making it easier for the air to absorb more moisture. That moisture will condense out when the air is again cooled. If you're in a "closed" space, and don't admit outside air, this is not a problem. But if there is any source of additional moisture, that warm air will absorb it, and release it again as condensation when it cools.

Funny - this is the third time this topic has come up on different forums in the last few weeks. Here's a post I made on one explaining how it works:

Humidity is a function of temperature and moisture. Warm air holds
a lot more moisture (water vapor) than cold air. Relative humidity
(RH) is the ratio of the moisture content of the air, to the
moisture content of saturated air at the same temperature. So, air
that is holding 50% of the moisture that it can hold when
saturated, the RH is 50%. Adding moisture increases RH, removing
moisture lowers RH. Increasing temperature lowers RH, decreasing
temperature raises RH. RH never goes above 100%. When you reach
100% RH, condensation occurs.

Dew point is a function of the moisture content of the air only.
It is the temperature at which the air having a given moisture
content will reach 100% RH, and at which moisture will start
condensing out. Adding moisture increases dewpoint, removing
moisture lowers dewpoint. Temperature has nothing to do with
dewpoint, so does not change the dewpoint.

Now take your garage, and fill it with 20C air at 50% RH, which has
a dewpoint of roughly 10C. Cool that air down to 10C, without
adding or subtracting any moisture, and it will be very close to
100% RH, but no condensation will occur. Cool it further to 0C,
and condensation will occur, maintaining the RH at 100%. Heat it
back up again to 20C, and the RH will be around 25%. It's not the
50% it was before, because you've condensed out half of the
moisture, so it's no longer in the air. Cool it down again to 0C,
and this time there will be NO condensation, because the RH just
reaches 100% at 0C. Cool it further, below 0C, and condensation
will occur. You can now heat and cool it as many times as you
like, as long as you don't go below 0C, and you'll get no
condensation.

Open the door on a humid day, and you let in additional moisture,
which raises the RH and dewpoint, so you will be more likely to get
condensation next time the space cools down. Condensation occurs
first on large metal objects because they will generally be at a
slightly lower temperature than ambient, due to their large
thermal ''mass''. That lower temperature increases the RH of the air
close to the object, so that air will reach 100% RH before the
ambient air.

Now, even if the door is left open, as long as the temperature
changes are relatively slow (which they normally are when
controlled by outside weather), you're still unlikely to get a lot
of condensation, as the temperature of the things in the garage
will closely track the ambient temperature.

Where you get into trouble is when you have a very cold night, and
everything in the garage is cooled down to 0C. Then the sun comes
out, and the outside air gets up to 25C, but it's raining. Now you
have all those nice, cold objects in the garage, and all that warm,
moist air outside. Open the garage door, and that warm, moist air
comes into the garage, comes in with all those cold metal objects,
and you get a lot of condensation.

[Oldboy]

MY point was you want a dry air. Cold or not. If its dry air; things can't rust. And if he only use a side door to turn on & off the heater.
It would work. Ya if he is opening the garge door it would be a wast of time.
Thats why i said the bag idea is the way to go.

[vladdy]

If you don't mind the idea of hanging a bag under / inside an equipment cover, a much less expensive alternative is calcium chloride.. it's a dry power that will absorb moisture out of the air, and is effective down to around 0 degrees F..
either a 'catch can' or hanging over a drain works well... I personally wrap some powder in a bag, and set the bag into a cut off portion of a plastic pop can, upside down, a nice drain funnel, and pop holes into ot for hanger wires..

the least expensive source for calcium chloride is a tire repair shop, one that caters to industrial or farm equipment, last bit cost me $1 /lb cdn...it;s used there to be mixed with water and added to large tires for extra ballast weight, and the mixture is usually good to -40 C or so..

it will keep absorbing water from the air virtually forever, and self drains fairly well..

..enjoy..

[philbur]

Only if you regenerate it by driving off the absorbed water in an oven.

Phil

it will keep absorbing water from the air virtually forever, and self drains fairly well..

..enjoy..

[vladdy]

'regeneration' isn't required with calcium chloride...not the same as silica beads or gel..it will saturate and drip off...
I've had the same bag in a small area that I store firearms in..
over about a 5 year span it does become about half reduced in volume as the particles become finer, and filter through the bag, and wind up in the catch can..
moisture in that room is about 3% in winter, 5% in summer, no windows, partially heated in winter, with minimal access in general...

[cadmonkey]

Well I got it cleaned today, really was rather simple and I did a partial tear down. After cleaning the exposed portion of the ways and moving the table and head, the areas not exposed were clean as a whistle.

I picked up 2 things at the tool store this morning - real way oil - much superior to the 30W I was using, but not as particulate attracting as gear lube. There is now a wonderful coat on the exposed axes. I also picked up a can of Rustlick 606 - basically a heavy duty fogging oil but it touted as being sufficient for storage for up to a year in salty climates. I normally keep the moisture condition of the garage in check - I made it through all last winter without issues, but unbeknownst to me the overheads were opened and it was raining and warm out with all my nice cold equipment falling prey. Typically when I work out there in the winter I heat with an infrared propane heater and the mill gets up above the dewpoint and stays there a lot longer than it takes for the h2o from the air to condense out. I didn't need to go to the extreme of bagging and using dessicant last winter and didn't have any problems through the spring. 2 biggest keys were I was healthy and using the mill, and I was more involved in the daily goings on. Of late most of my time has been spent curled in bed or suffering through a day at work.

Thanks for all the well wishes. The tests that are being conducted right now (don't ask...) will shed some light on things I believe and hopefully get things moving in a positive direction.

I'll let you know what I think of the 606 and legit way oil combination when I've had more time to evaluate it, but they applied much more evenly and noticably than previous stuff.

Greg

[philbur]

I think you may be mistaken. Calcium chloride is highly soluble in water so what drips off is a solution of calcium chloride in water. If you remove the water from the room, as you must, then depending on how much CC you started with you will at some point have no CC left. It can be effective where access, and therefore new moist air, is greatly restricted but it will not last for ever without regeneration or replacement.

Have a read here:
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiteratu...romPage=GetDoc

Phil

'regeneration' isn't required with calcium chloride...not the same as silica beads or gel..it will saturate and drip off...
I've had the same bag in a small area that I store firearms in..
over about a 5 year span it does become about half reduced in volume as the particles become finer, and filter through the bag, and wind up in the catch can..
moisture in that room is about 3% in winter, 5% in summer, no windows, partially heated in winter, with minimal access in general...