[supra3k]

I went to school for CNC/Machining last 2 semesters. I had alot of fun learning and got excellent grades. The problem is... I'm 24 years old and have gotten "laidoff" 3 times in the past three months from these stupid f*cking machine shops. All these mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, trying to run an old skool thought of business.

The first supervisor I had was a douche bag, he knew nothing about me. I had to tell him that I went to school for machining. He didn't even know that much, even though the company paid for my scholarship. He was told by the owner to put me on a machine. I started (training) working with another new hire. The cycle time was long, 2-3 hours, so there was not much to do between those times.

I inspected parts my first couple of days. I felt bad for the guy i was working with because he had absolutely nothing to do. So i decided that he should do some inspection that day. Well, the supervisor came around to ask him what i had been doing all day (dumb-ass pollack) , said i "did nothing". After that day, my supervisor pulled me off and stuck me in assembly. At first, i figured he just didn't have work for me but i seen kids with no experience and no schooling were being trained as i was working bullsh*t jobs. He put me on machines here and there. Until one day, where he put me on a job, without giving me much explanation of how to do it properly. I made a simple mistake, the fixture for the part had to adjusted by hand for each part (no error proofing of job(lean thinking)). Made a few scrap parts, and was called in by the owner of the company, without warnings or a chance to even speak. The owner said he is laying me off.

I was pissed but kinda of relieved. Hoping for better opportunity, I was unemployed for about a month. Then, got a job with a medical manufacturer. Worked about a month, when I was talking with a coworker about another guy that has crashed a machine.I mentioned it to that worker, next thing I know, myself and my coworker got "laidoff". The kid was a rat, and I mean kid, 22 years old.

Then , i got another job with an aerospace manufacturer. They offered me night shift (12 hour). I said yes, cause i wanted to get in. Two weeks in, the hiring manager calls me in to say he doesn't believe I can do the job. Based on other workers "comments". Bullsh*t, i know i could have done the job. It's CNC , not thermonuclear engineering. The funny thing is, there was a guy working there who didn't know how to properly true a tool. He has been machining for 5 years! There was not much I could say, the manager had already made up his mind. Just like the previous jobs.

Well, i just wanted to *unload* all my frustration. I think the industry needs a major overhaul with it's business practices. All these old timers retiring, and the new guys don't have the same work ethic. I believe the industry had better adapt to these new hires. Or they will have no-one to run any machines.

Also, are machinists the only trade workers that are not confident enough or smart enough to start unions?

And, lean thinking is bull****. All it really does is benefit the company. None of these shops care about the workers. Times, have changed since the fifty's. Sons of owners have taken over these shops and all they are interested in is the profit margin. THEY DON"T CARE ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL WORKER!

So, F*CK you machine shops. I'm going off to lineman training in a couple weeks. They start at $22 an hour as an apprentice!, and a journeyman continues at $35 with plenty of overtime.

[WayneHill]

... Well, i just wanted to *unload* all my frustration...

Yes you did. Life lessons can be difficult.

Good Luck.

[dertsap]

. It's CNC , not thermonuclear engineering. .

some are very successfull while many others are incapable of walking beyond button pushers , this isnt a trade for everyone

[davereagan]

I don't think the problem is CNC vs. lineman work. During those 2-3 hour cycle times, did you clean up around your area or did you think you're too good for that because you went to school?

[dertsap]

I don't think the problem is CNC vs. lineman work. During those 2-3 hour cycle times, did you clean up around your area or did you think you're too good for that because you went to school?

exactly

I had a guy who was fairly fresh out of school who thought he was smart , thought that he was above the work i gave him , refused to do the tasks that i ask him to do while he had a 45 munute cycle , so i threw him into the deburring dept for a week with the hopes he would appreciate the opportunity that we had placed in from of him , within a week of him being back on the machines his attitude was just as bad as ever , i had him out of the building immediately

and what the hell is lean about two guys standing around for three hours doing NOTHING

[Switcher]

During those 2-3 hour cycle times, did you clean up around your area or did you think you're too good for that because you went to school?

It really doesn't matter If he was cleaning up between cycle times. How many times can a guy sweep/mop the same area around the same machine? I clean up around 2 machines, while they run in less than an hour, while checking parts & loading material.

Sounds like it's an issue with a leadman/supervisor being lazy, they know what the cycle times are, they should have something else for you to do (run 2 or more machines, etc...).


.

[NC Cams]

The new, educated kid is a threat. Their knowledge gives them confidence which makes it harder to be intimidated. ALL jobs can be a situation of power vs control.

The meek are easily intimidated. Easily knocked down and built up the way the old timers want. It is hard to have knowledge, be meek and still have the attitude necessary to get ahaed.

Having said that, why did the guy who unloaded make 3-4 bad parts WITHOUT asking for help?. Too much attitude? too much schooling? Too much "UofM" "I'm a degreed individual" attiude? Clearly the kid didn't know as much as he thought and he didn't "know it all". You fubar'd 3 BEFORE you found out about the setup trick??? I'd fire you for that on the spot as well.

No matter where you work, you have to EARN the respect of idiots, egomaniacs and just down right ignorant people. DEAL WITH IT. If you think for a minute that lineman are going to be any different, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

FUBAR a machining, you lose some money for he owner. FUBAR with high power, you could get fried.

I started out with a similar attitude - by my thrid job, it took be 10 years to get run off.

Take my advice. LEarn to bite your tongue. Learn to ask for help even if it is NOT needed - you're less of a threat. You control your destiny, sometimes by what you day and do and toehr times what you DON"T do or say.

Rant all you went, point fingers at lean thinkers all you want, when you point a figner at them, theree are pointing back at you.

[LeeWay]

I don't care how much a fella learns in school, each and every position you fill will need it own skill set. Schools can teach the why for's, formula's how to use tools, machinery setup and operation, etc...
Every job you go to will require more experience On The Job. The Foreman should step you through what they expect once or twice anyway. No matter how you do something, it isn't going to be just the way they want it done every time.

To get anywhere to start with, you have to show initiative. This goes for just about any job. Show them that you want to make money for the Boss. If you have long cycle times, ASK what you can do in the meantime. It may be that you need to observe the machine. They may want you to help out somewhere else. You need to show the initiative though and realize once you've hit the start button, you are costing the man money if you aren't doing anything else.
Prove to them you are willing to do more. They would be more likely to keep you around.
They made the first move by hiring you. It's your move next.
Grab assing and gossip as well as *****in will or at least should get you fired from any place with machinery. It can be incredibly dangerous if your attention is not where it should be. In such cases, when guys are let go for these reasons, they are possibly saving someones life or limb.

The sooner these things are learned by a new worker, the sooner he or she will start climbing a ladder to higher pay and better benefits and may actually earn him or her some respect from Peers and management. Okay......maybe not management, but you get the idea.

Good luck on the high wire act. You'll likely be working directly under some of those same types of people there as well.

[supra3k]

It really doesn't matter If he was cleaning up between cycle times. How many times can a guy sweep/mop the same area around the same machine? I clean up around 2 machines, while they run in less than an hour, while checking parts & loading material.

Sounds like it's an issue with a leadman/supervisor being lazy, they know what the cycle times are, they should have something else for you to do (run 2 or more machines, etc...).


.

I think you said it exactly right. Obviously, I cleaned and did everything i could out of respect for the supervisor and my new opportunity. However, there is only so much time you can clean and organize before you get to a point where you have absolutely nothing to do. The supervisor came around at all the wrong times. I was just standing there trying to think of something to do. I hate pretending to be busy, I feel like it is a huge waste of time. I love working hard and earning my paycheck.

And, yes I do feel like the supervisor was lazy. Just cause you work 50+ doesn't make you an A+ diligent worker. Some of these supervisors are running around back and forth between the experienced machinists leaving the new guys helpless. Why? I think cause they wanna feel responsible for all the parts in the shop. The experienced guys should be left to make their own decisions instead of having the supervisor make every decision for them.

Every machinist brings his own skills and abilities to the shop floor. The supervisor should be making decisions about where each person belongs (updating over time). I don't think a supervisor should be an uber-machinist who needs to run every machine.

[dertsap]

I don't think a supervisor should be an uber-machinist who needs to run every machine.

who do you think is the first guy standing in front of the fan when Sh$% hits it , your supervisor thats who , then after having a strip tore of of him because of your screw up he's usually the same guy who comes back to you with a slight smile and says don't sweat it , we'll make another one .theres more going on with that guy than you would like to know

new guys tend to be put on non critical jobs , and are left alone to see if they are capable of doing the job themselves , noone wants to overwhelm the new guy with info , also information travels far better from a fellow employee than it does from the boss , we used to set new guys with one of the senior employees , this way the intimidation factor is much less if the new guy has a question

doesn t matter where you go the boss may be good he may be bad , but the boss is the boss and he has earned that , and youve got to show that respect if you want to have that job someday
plus who's cutting the cheque and who needs it

[supra3k]

The new, educated kid is a threat. Their knowledge gives them confidence which makes it harder to be intimidated. ALL jobs can be a situation of power vs control.

The meek are easily intimidated. Easily knocked down and built up the way the old timers want. It is hard to have knowledge, be meek and still have the attitude necessary to get ahead.

Having said that, why did the guy who unloaded make 3-4 bad parts WITHOUT asking for help?. Too much attitude? too much schooling? Too much "UofM" "I'm a degreed individual" attiude? Clearly the kid didn't know as much as he thought and he didn't "know it all". You fubar'd 3 BEFORE you found out about the setup trick??? I'd fire you for that on the spot as well.



FUBAR a machining, you lose some money for he owner.


Take my advice. LEarn to bite your tongue. Learn to ask for help even if it is NOT needed -

Very insightful thought about the new guy being a threat. This lesson I learned.

As for making scrap parts. I wasn't given a setup sheet, or dimensions, or tolerances. He just showed me what to do and left me alone. I didn't realize i was making scrap parts till the next op guy came over to tell me. It was a, "make me busy doing a crappy job" situation.

Losing money for the owner is old skool thinking. I will tell you why... We don't live in the industrial age any more. From http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...hots_20060621/

"In 2005, the average CEO in the United States earned 262 times the pay of the average worker, the second-highest level of this ratio in the 40 years for which there are data. In 2005, a CEO earned more in one workday (there are 260 in a year) than an average worker earned in 52 weeks." "In 1965, U.S. CEOs in major companies earned 24 times more than an average worker"

I can hardly support my family on a machinist salary but i need to be concerned about how much richer I'm making the owner? The difference is, when these guys grandfathers started the shops, they treated employees almost as part owners of the company.

I don't believe in the notion of "steal from the rich and give to the poor". But, i do believe in dignity.

And, i did bite my tongue. That's probly what got me into trouble in the first place. Should have spoken up (which i did partially on my review papers). In the end though, no warnings, no sitdowns, no verbal warnings. Nothing. Nada. Just the "step into my office" and "you're FIRED". Didn't even want to hear what i had to say.

[supra3k]

who do you think is the first guy standing in front of the fan when Sh$% hits it , your supervisor thats who , then after having a strip tore of of him because of your screw up he's usually the same guy who comes back to you with a slight smile and says don't sweat it , we'll make another one .theres more going on with that guy than you would like to know



doesn t matter where you go the boss may be good he may be bad , but the boss is the boss and he has earned that , and youve got to show that respect if you want to have that job someday
plus who's cutting the cheque and who needs it

I understand the supervisor gets S$*t. I understand his plea as well. So think about it. Who is his boss? The owner. The owner is just interested in profits. I'm just trying to warn the incoming generation of machinists, get unionized, quick! By the way, my boss didn't smile, he threw the part across the way and yelled "this is a f*cking scrap part".

Earned his job? Doing what? Putting up with his boss's crap before his time? Shouldn't the perfect candidate be best educated, best skilled? This guy was calling dial calipers "verniers". His original Bachelors degree had nothing to do with the industry. Who else earned it? The owner? He was born into it, all the hard work was done for him. That is the reason he has no respect for YOU.

Who cares about who cuts the cheque? I'm offering my services too. I'm paying the owner with my time. Think about it that way. It is an exchange. You make it seem like the owner has more value as a human being than i do, just cause he has a higher net worth. Where would these companies be, if not for the workers?

[dertsap]

Earned his job? Doing what? Putting up with his boss's crap before his time? Shouldn't the perfect candidate be best educated, best skilled? This guy was calling dial calipers "verniers". His original Bachelors degree had nothing to do with the industry.
Who cares about who cuts the cheque? I'm offering my services too. I'm paying the owner with my time. Think about it that way. It is an exchange. You make it seem like the owner has more value as a human being than i do, just cause he has a higher net worth. Where would these companies be, if not for the workers?

noone is suggesting anyone is subhuman , my comments may appear backhanded but i dont appreciate someone suggesting machinists aren t smart enough to start a union , thats an insult to most people here on the forum .

I was a supervisor and i earned that position through experience and my attitude toward my work , i was the guy who stood in front of the boss covering guys ass's after they would scrap parts that were worth thousands apiece , and by the time i was done the boss was calm enough to talk to the employee to get their side of the story , these guys didnt know or need to know what i did to help them in my opinion ,it was my job to do that , these were the same guys who would point their finger at me and call me an as#h(^ for getting them to do their job , the same guys who would knife me in the back to cover their butt . Same guys who pushed me to the point that the boss had to step in a number of times because i was going to beat the life out of them
the stress of the job took its toll on my everyday life and eventually my health , I quite the job and i will never do that again , i am happy going into work to do my job and i no longer have to deal with a bunch of self rightious AsH%%^ ever again
like i said in reference to the supervisor "theres more going on with that guy than you would like to know"

it boils down to respect on both sides , you owe the boss an honest days work for an honest days pay

[LeeWay]

"Losing money for the owner is old skool thinking. I will tell you why... We don't live in the industrial age any more. From http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...hots_20060621/ "

If you are standing around for even a half hour cycle time, then you are loosing the company money. Old school? Maybe so, but this still holds true.
It certainly could be a supervisor issue for sure, but more than likely, it was a test to see what you would do to find something to do.

The CEO's or the Boss isn't going to actually personally loose money if they have supers who will weed out the ones costing them the most clock time. That narrows their losses.
On the other hand, it is the ones who are always working when the super comes around that will get raised the quickest.

You won't get rich fast being a machinist or anything else right out of school. It takes time and experience to get good at anything. Luck plays only a very small part of being at the right place at the right time or the right person for the new position that just opened.
If you have been a good hard worker and spent some time in a position and have yet to be noticed, question them as to policy.
I have been hired back twice by two different companies that neglected to raise me when we had agreed upon. I gave them notice and quit. Both times within two days, they wanted me back. I also got paid for those two days I did not work.

Become indispensable if possible. Hard to do in some jobs. Always take up for yourself and speak up especially if you feel you have been overlooked or wronged. No one else will do that for you.

[NC Cams]

I"m the owner and boss of my shop.

My cams are mostly all custom one off billets. "Scrap" one and I"m out nearly $1200. not counting salaries and overhead. And to make the insult worse, I have to pay you AGAIN to remake what you f/u'd and maybe do so on O/T for time sensitive part. Did you ever think about that?

I also can recall when I started out anew. Even though it was over 30 years ago.

Tis why I don't yell at people when I'm mad. My anger is expressed in soft, monotone. They know when I whisper, I'm REAL mad. I"m almost anal on setup. Result: we don't make scrap and my guys kick a$$ to please.

Old time machine shops are run by old time people with old time attitudes. That's how they were taught. They know no better, they know no different. Look at it like when you first get married. I'm sure there were days you caught hell for leaving the toilet seat up. Machine shops are no different. THey don't take kindly to book smart people who try to tell them how to do things they worked a lifetime to make a go of.

It is harder and harder for "old time" shops to prosper because of "old time ways'. HOWEVER, the "kids' who come in aren't always the brightest bulbs on the tree. Their degree says so, their performance says otherwise.

Old time machinists know tons of tricks on how to do things. I worked with some 20+ year vets. I was the smart a$$ engineer - they were the shop rats - they taught me, I learned form them. I, in turn taught them some new ideas and we hashed things out sometimes over a few, very few, beers.

You have good points, but they have a lifetime of experience. Treachery and old age with experience will generally overcome youth and enthusiam. Why? we made your mistakes and more as we've got a HUGE head start over you in the live and learn dept.

HINT did you ASK before you made chips if the part had any setup tricks? probably not. You wanted to show how smart you were. Boss's aspect: smart ass know it all, we'll see what happens.

Result" you made scrap, three times. Really did a bang up job of showing how smart you were. Get the picture yet?. YOu were on probabtion and EVERYTHING you did put you into the "step into my office" position at any moment. YOu don't realize it but that's what bosses do. They test you with tests they went thru - pass you stay, miss too many goals, you get the boot..

YOu may be very smart, You simply didn't show it. The boss has probably had his fill of trade school "Mensa's" - you were more proof that such "kids are a worthless POS".

If it were your shop, what would you have done? Ok, so it isn't and he didn't, get over it. You had your rant. WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT YOUR DEFICIENCIES that helped contribute to the scenario??? Trust me dude, it is as much if not more your fault as to what happened versus your lame boss's. Why? he still collects a paycheck, you don't. Unfair? Get over that because life isn't.

You learned or should have learned several lessons. THings happen for a good reason. Chill out, learn form your mistakes. Even those you didn't make

Did you ask if the part was a Mil spec part? (MIL-TFP 4.1) = make it like the f'ing print for once).

I can go on and on. Do matter what reason/excuse you may nave, I'll have more combacks. I was in your shoes and paid your price for essentialy the same "youthful enthusiasm". I was lucky enought to have some folks set me down and "splain" tings to me. Next time, ask for help, even if you don't need it.

WHile your at it, read the thread here that goes into "would you share your knowledge".

Lots of expereicne to be gained there. Small shops have lots of "toilet seat has to be down momenst" Actually EVERY place I worked had the same mentality. My shop has the same one as "my house, my rules".

WHen you earn enough working for people that you can buy/create your own shop, then you can be the a$$hole boss that you are biiitching about. Rank and liIfe have their privileges.

[lovebugjunkie]

We have heard one side of three different situations from you. You being the common denominator in all three, see where this is going........

After reading a few of you “descriptive” phrases. “All these mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, trying to run an old skool thought of business. “ “stupid f*cking machine shops “ “mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, “.

I think I can tell you with some certainty where the problem is. You look at it each morning when you shave.

Being the new guy on the block with a “attitude” is the quickest way to get your butt handed to you by the “old skool” that I know of. Does not matter how smart you are (or think you are). Happens everyday in all workplaces, it is not unique to machine shops.

[supra3k]

We have heard one side of three different situations from you. You being the common denominator in all three, see where this is going........

After reading a few of you “descriptive” phrases. “All these mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, trying to run an old skool thought of business. “ “stupid f*cking machine shops “ “mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, “.

I think I can tell you with some certainty where the problem is. You look at it each morning when you shave.

Being the new guy on the block with a “attitude” is the quickest way to get your butt handed to you by the “old skool” that I know of. Does not matter how smart you are (or think you are). Happens everyday in all workplaces, it is not unique to machine shops.

Okay, okay. I'm humbled now. Was just trying to vent some of my frustration. Didn't mean to use such terms, was just doing some drinking when I wrote it (been bottling it up for a while, without having someone to listen).

Thanks for all your input everybody. Seems like you guys care at least a little, enough to respond. So maybe, I will reconsider quitting but I think I'm running out of places to work at in my area.

I think machining is alot of fun and rewarding, especially compared to my previous jobs. I just wish i could stop making all these mistakes. At first, i was very naive, but i thought i learned that lesson. I hate blaming other people but it is frustrating when no one person tells me or even gives me a hint about what I might be doing wrong.

I love to follow directions, if ...they are given to me. I have utmost respect for senior authority... until i keep getting pushed around. I love to learn... when someone is willing to teach.

I know im just the new kid on the block but I would like to see some changes in the industry though. I think it would be very beneficial to companies if they could atleast hear out some of us new guys.

I've been in 3 different shops so far and none had a formal training program. They all had training for Quality but not for actual production work. I would like to see training documented and logged for us newbies. So both parties could know where each worker is and where he is going. What happened to actual apprenticeships anyway? Nowadays, it feels like they just throw you on a machine and it is swim or sink. I would have loved to actually have trained with a veteran.

I would love to ask my supervisor questions, but how can i do that if i know he is always busy? Most of what I learned was in no way formal. I just had to watch other people and pick it up as I go. I'm not stupid either, but i do need to stop and think about every step that i take. I don't wanna be crashing a $30k machine, or worse $200k. For most senior machinists, every step is second nature. Programmed muscle memory and brain. Also, you gotta understand that these guys, when they started, they started working on bridgeports and manual lathes. They have had time to learn all those skills (actual chip cutting that you can "feel" and "see" )for many years, and watch the transition over the generations to CNC. Us new guys, did some minor projects at school and then we are thrown on a CNC.

When I learn something new I like to share it with someone. They say it's the best way to learn yourself. I do however, sometimes, have that ego that wants to hold in my knowledge and not share it. Maybe it makes me feel more powerful or something. So, I do understand when some vets don't wanna share their hard earned knowledge after many years of trial and error. And, you don't have to. But, I can speak for all the new guys out there and say that you will gain our respect. We do look up to you. If I'm learning more compared to the next new guy who do you think I'm going to thank? You. I will have the opportunity for advancement and raises. Neither am I going to go over your head. I would have to much respect for you by that point.

[davereagan]

If the guy was calling dial calipers verniers, that means verniers were still used when he started (40 yrs ago?) and you need to listen to him, not the other way around. You seem teachable. If you seek a mentor, you will find him. The first thing I'd do is put all your suggestions on the shelf and earn some credibility. That is the natural order. Then you'll be listened to and your suggestions will be better. By the way, why shouldn't an owner be interested in profits? Do you want to run a loser business? When I came to Michigan, I was three years into a Mechanical Engineering degree. I had been working in engines since I was 12 and I wanted to dyno test engines in the worst way. Guess when I had to do for a month? Scrape paint off cinder block walls for the new dyno cell at $7.00/hr. Then, I got to test engines make power runs. It is not the owner's job to think about how efficiently you are learning. It's your job to make him money. Who gave you ideas to the contrary?

David

[supra3k]

davereagan "Who gave you ideas to the contrary? "

Obama did. Joking... kinda

[LeeWay]

Ah. You can take this thread as part of learning. Break most of it down and it is a new guy handbook, so to speak. I am pretty much a jack of all trades. Not really though. This is just a term to mean well versed in many areas. I learned what I know from experience and watching others that actually know what they are doing. Some that didn't as well, but I learn from that too.
If there was something I didn't understand about what was expected of me, I asked questions. Guys were always willing to share answers since they knew I had a desire to learn as much as I could to get better at what I do.
I have been in a few supervisory roles and there is much more to supering and management than meets the eyes of the average worker.
Also by the time you are supervising, you know what to look for in both good and bad employees.
I always gave them the benefit of the doubt, but again, attitude plays a big role here as well.
How well does the person take direction?
Understand directions? Etc.
I took all these things into consideration before letting someone go.

Mistakes are made every day even by professionals.
How they handle the criticism and fix what caused the error is the difference between a good or not so good employee.
Good luck in whatever you choose to do.
Keep lurking around here and posting.
I have ran some manual machinery before coming here a few years back. I have since built and competed my third cnc machine.
Everything I know about CNC started with this site.