[NC Cams]

First lesson - take anything written while under the influence of alcohol and save it to disk. Read it when sober and ask yourself "does this make me look good or stupid?".Fix it accordingly.

You could walk into my shop with a Phd. in CNC and you would not run it - at least not without proving that you could. Paid too much for the damn machine and I know you are not going to even offer to fix it in the event of a crash.

Your pond is getting smaller and smaller. If you want to swim in it, take the hints/suggestions and make a plan to address them all. You don't have to bother the boss with nagging questions - maybe just a got a minute type. Wanna bet he'll take 20?

Or even a "is there a special way you want me to do this?"

I had "my ways" all over the place with my/our cams. My guys came up with suggestions AFTER they showed me their proposed changes. They even found some ways to "do this" in ways I found clever and imaginative.

Example. aftermarket diametral tolerances of cam journals are 0.001 to 0.002. We hold 0.0005. On special order, we can hold 0.0003 (edit) and if we know the temp of your shop, hold the three in our shop which is kept cool in winter and meet spec in your 78 deg shop across town.

That takes care and knowledge of how to grind. NOBODY is gonna walk in and do that out of trade school. I can't even do it and I taught the kid who runs the grinder how to grind cams. He's earned my trust - hes' had his OOPS moments.

BTW, did you ask why you got canned? They owed you that. If not, maybe it was a fit not to be...

You've probably had enough well meaning criticism. HINT: let your note sit for a couple days and read it as if you did NOT write it, if you can. Did you like what you saw? If not, what would you do about it??? WOUld you want that guy working for you. TOugh love can be quite helpful and you won't find/get a lot of sympathy here.

[sp4i6]

guess it's not for you :rainfro:

[justin garvey]

Supra , what were your reasons for choosing this trade?
have you heard of the word "crusty" in any of the trades you may have worked?
This refers to the old ******* simply have experience .hardened by experience(priceless)
most importantly the fact they still have 10 fingers and 10 toes, if not, and are still in the trade they are hard individuals, a cog in the wheel , i.e. team player.If we look at your L.O.T (logical order of thinking) there is alot of I comments, statements, rants about you not we or my company.
anyway experience and time makes us all a little "crusty".
take control
Justin

[Talisman]

Supra... the stuff you have typed sounds like what had going through my head during the early points of my jump into manufacturing. All I can say now from experience.... bite your tongue, and keep your ears open. Often you definitely will learn something.... other times you'll save your ass by keeping the yapper shut. Also, people are more willing to share if they find you receptive to what they have to say... If you really were thrown into that situation to run scrap... well it does suck. But, don't ever ever run parts without a print, I don't know why on gods green earth anyone would allow you to do it in the first place.

Maybe there is someone around that shop who you *could* learn from if given the opportunity. My first job out of college (which was for a very well known and respected Jap machine tool builder), with a four year MET degree got stuck with a "crap" job. Gopher boy, go fetch parts, clean coolant tank, *clean* the "clean room", I occasionally got to build spindles which was what I was supposed to be doing in that job. I probably did that for two months till it ended and I actually got to do the spindles full time, no more gophering and cleaning. I showed up every day and didn't *****, but they knew I didn't like it. Pretty much a test, as well as learning how to build different spindles properly without being thrown into all of it at once. After that I got to go over to the Machining facility, where I was told I would take classes to program their machines. Well... I got to take the classes, 6 months later . In the mean time I got stuck with a "crusty" old guy. He kinda smelled, had bad teeth, and was pretty much a complete hillbilly upon a first impression. At first I thought, "oh F'N A! This is complete Bull****"... I was wrong. That "crusty hillbilly" taught me everything, there wasn't a lot he couldn't do on a CNC machine. Then I got to take classes... by that time I didn't need them. Point being... keep your mouth shut and ears open... pretty much what my Dad told way back when. Seemed to go a long way for me being a guy out of school who thought along similar lines as yourself. That job taught me a lot.

Also..."I'm offering my services too. I'm paying the owner with my time". Maybe its potato/patato... BUT, the owner is the one doing the paying, and you are selling. You're selling your ability to produce an acceptable product... make it worth his while. What he makes at the end of the day... well... shouldn't be a concern of yours unless you're costing him money. (read: Job Security). The graphs about how much more money the boss makes than an average employee... won't do much to further your career. Might be sometime that drives a decision to open your own business someday once you have learned all the tricks of the trade from the crusty old timers. Owning a biz isn't all sugarplums and fairytales. Try signing the dotted line for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth (or much more) of machine tools and inspection equipment to produce parts for customers.... they won't pay or order parts if they come in as scrap... those are thoughts running through is head... its a different line of thinking in his head.

All you can really do in any job starting out is take the opportunities you can do learn as much as you can and put that knowledge to good use. Sounds like you may have gotten a bad shake on that one possibly.

Anyways, good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[WayneHill]

.. Too much attitude? too much schooling? Too much "UofM" "I'm a degreed individual" attiude?

How does a UofM graduate screw in a light bulb?

They hold on to the light bulb and let the world revolve around them.

I once worked with a UofM graduate. They had to increase the size of the doors to allow his ego to fit through.

A person that thinks they know it all is a specially annoying to those of us that do.

[NC Cams]

More U of M

1 Was looking for a kied to do some reprogramming from Lotus 123 into Excel. Rason, the program I had inculed a bunch of VB that didn't work in Excel via a simple import. THis kid from UofM calls in respose to workd I"d put out. Starts telling me how it will impore even though he'd NEVER seen the program, Then goes on to say the "who doesn't have Excel?".

I go on to explain that a lot of people have Auatro Pro and others have Lotus 123 and that if he goes to work, he may HAVE do use somthiing other thatn Excel. He seemed shocked when I said "Just becasue UofM does it that way, doesn't mean EVERYBODY does it that way". Get real kid.

2 Second kid comes to work from UofM. Supposed to be some kind of merit scholar. Gave hime some SIMPLE stuff to look up - he was helpless/cluelsss. Finally showed him EXACTLY waht to look up and in what books and were to find them at UoM ligrary. He came back with wrong stuff ut of the rigth book. Took him 3 days to do a 1 afternon project.

And the idiiot asked for a job reference after fubaring things as bad as he did.

I don't know where or how they grow people that way but they somehow feel that the world does revovle around them. If you can't do it, TEACH IT in a university..

[laszlozoltan]

The op went to school studied and went to work with the best of intentions. It is not his fault his experience was so negative.

[One of Many]

Gotta laugh at this one, since I can relate with the frustration, as many of us have had to learn the hard way too.

Fast forward 30+ years,

I've been in shops where there were some 2 semester book learned "machinists" that had much the same attitude coming in the door. With all their clueless wisdom of how things needed changing to accommodate the way it was taught them. Wishing for a Union that would cover their butt when they get it in a sling.....through no fault of their own.

As if 6 months in a technical overview course places them on par with those industrialists running a profitable business. It shouldn't matter how the ownership got there or how much money they make. If that is where you aspire to be at some point, shut up and observe. The over eager demanding newb has much to learn and it won't help to display attitude or body language that inhibits meaningful communication between Superiors and trainees. Knowing your bounds and gaining a sense of your own limitations is a golden rule to retaining gainful employment. Spouting off on how smart you are and how dumb everyone else must be, is a sure method of being put on the outside looking in......repeatedly. Expecting a different result is no lesson learned.

Knowing what button to push, reading a print and how to use measuring tools is only scrapping the surface of the required skill in this industry. It takes a plethora of conditioning and exposure over many years to obtain a level of craftsmanship to use those skills effectively and efficiently in order to become indispensable.

Cut and run gains you nothing but it does show a propensity for irresponsible self serving vindication no matter where you end up. Getting out from under that black cloud takes some internalized soul searching. Unfortunately as a trainee, respect and expectation is a one way street until worth is proven.

You hint at many things about what is wrong with your line of thinking in a ranting post blaming the authority and professionalism of those for whatever reason, no longer willing to put up with you.

It would also be fascinating to hear their side of these stories....

DC

[jstiltner]

After reading the thread and seeing part of myself in the OP I feel the need to throw this out there too. Just because a business does something some particular way, that does not always mean that is the best way, or even proper way to do it. That may have been the way they have done it for the past 30 years, and it may work for them. However, if every time someone has a new idea of how to do something, they just say no, this is how we have done it for the past 30 years and that's how were going to do it. I feel that's pretty short sighted, and have seen that myself. They saw that improvement I suggested too.. as I was working out my 2 weeks before heading to a place where new ideas weren't quashed, and not everyone had a "Im self tought and this is how everyone here should do it cause its the way I figured out how to do it and thus the best way" attitude. In my case it would have been different if they had responded that they had tried that and it didn't work, but no, they just didn't know any better. In this particular case, I was right, and productivity was increased, the customer had fewer problems, turnaround time decreased, and all was better. I guess what I am really saying is new guys try to learn from the old guys, old guys, listen to what the newbie has to say, they may not be as dumb as you think they are. Oh, and don't make suggestions for the first month or two, until you have a good idea of how everything there works.

[dertsap]

i agree that companies should always be open to ideas but at the same time i firmly believe that if the boss disagrees and says he wants it done a certain way then i do it that way period . bottom line is if i tell him that a particular setup or whatever isnt going to work and he says he wants it done anyway then i do it , if it screws up then the boss already knew the risk and most times will take the responsibility for that , if i do it my way instead and screw it up , then i am %100 responsible

[DareBee]

^ditto

Also
When you are the boss of the business, you also have a boss to answer to. When the customer (BOSS) wants something done that I feel will not work for its intended use, I try to gently let them know my opinion, if they insist and it doesn't work I get paid to do it twice.
Funny because after I "argue" with the customer then I have to "argue" with my employees because they can see that it won't work as well (lol) "just do it man" is the best response.

[codyst]

I went to school for CNC/Machining last 2 semesters........

Then , i got another job with an aerospace manufacturer. They offered me night shift (12 hour). I said yes, cause i wanted to get in. Two weeks in, the hiring manager calls me in to say he doesn't believe I can do the job. Based on other workers "comments". Bullsh*t, i know i could have done the job. It's CNC , not thermonuclear engineering. The funny thing is, there was a guy working there who didn't know how to properly true a tool. He has been machining for 5 years! There was not much I could say, the manager had already made up his mind. Just like the previous jobs.

Keep in mind that after two semesters you may not be up to par with what the "other workers comments" consider to be someone who truely knows the ins and outs.

Some of the other guys on here have given you some advice, I'm going to offer my two cents also. I'm twenty-four years old. I turned my first part when I was four in my grandfathers machine shop, and haven't looked back since.
Still, even though I truely have 20 years of experience in the trade, I still catch hell from the senior guys. Why? Because the majority of them still do it better! I learn new things every day, some on my own, and even more from working side by side with the guys who have been there and done that.
The easiest and fastest way to Splitsville with any of these machine shops is being combative, or nasty, not knowing when to shut up, and not knowing when to speak up.

You said the parts you scrapped had no set up sheets, etc. You should've never hit the go button with out knowing what it was doing and how it was doing it. Regardless of how smart we are, we are still the "idiot" when we scrap parts, plain and simple.

As for paying the owner with your time: Now that I'm part owner of a business, I can say the majority, not all, but the majority of people running shops got there because they know what they are doing. I don't need someone to pay me with their time. I as well as my three other business partners are well and capable of doing everything we hired our workforce to do.

And please, for the sake of our generation, think before you speak (or type). I've read too many articles of older generations saying how lazy we are as a whole, and how our trade is going to falter. Ranting about "stupid f***ing mother f***ers" only reinforces those feelings, and gives those of us trying to null those feelings a bad name.

[towertek]

First off my friend, that schooling you have got you in the door, but hardly guarantees you get to stay. You have to produce, and impress, and be humble and studious and eager and then you might even get a raise.

While you where standing around with your entitled finger up your ass, where you reading the owners, operations, service and parts manual for your machine? If not why not? You should have this **** down pat, backwards and forwards.

Asking your supervisor a question? You should be showing him! Where's the fire? Training? Show some freakin initiative and immerse yourself in the knowledge, and then pass it on to others on your own dime. Tote some water instead of standing there drinking it.

Why are you not the go-to guy? Might have something to do with be spoiled, lazy and entitled with an altogether crappy attitude.

Find the fire in the belly or go do something else that you can be passionate about.

[laszlozoltan]

Save it. I think he's gone

[Geof]

Save it. I think he's gone

I wonder if he was another one of those who was just having us on?

[One of Many]

No, could have been the heat in the kitchen!

DC

[Geof]

No, could have been the heat in the kitchen!

DC

Okay, how many people recognize the allusion and can identify the President without resorting to Google (like I had to do).

[One of Many]

Dunno which President you are talking about. We refer to our new leader as O'Comandant! How much better than community college qualified.......is above MY pay grade.


DC

[Geof]

Dunno which President you are talking about....

DC

President Truman is attributed with saying: "If you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen"

That may not be exactly correct, here are a couple of links from Google:


http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/ifyoucantsta.html


http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/g...e-kitchen.html

[One of Many]

Oh, that President. I was thinking you inferred to the OP actual identity! The parallel in qualifications seemed apt at first glance.

DC