[pzzamakr1980]

Hey Bob, do you actually have one of these? If not, I think the phrase, go away applies. If you do and you feel that a experimental product that by the builder's own admission still has some kinks to work out should be dead on reliable, many phrases apply. As it is, I have the system running without closed loop without any real issue, closed loop is not working, but I'm happy to be using a laptop instead of a dedicated computer with it's huge tower.

[joeybagadonuts]

Does Kid Rock have a CNC Brain?

What does he use it for?

JoeyB

[Dougal]

As it is, I have the system running without closed loop without any real issue, closed loop is not working, but I'm happy to be using a laptop instead of a dedicated computer with it's huge tower.

Can you post some details of your setup?

[CarbideBob]

Well I see I've revved up a few people.
Good that was my intention.

I have a very large problem with anyone who announces that their product is ready and suck money from people's pockets and then say "we will get it working any day now".

There are those here that have commanded my respect, notably Mariss and NC Cams. Both of whom have many times demonstrated their in depth knowledge of motion control engineering and machine dynamics.

Yes Mariss, I know I'm throwing out the proverbial "wet blanket".
Sorry bout that but I've had dozens of bright engineers working for me with unrealistic expectations and at some point you have to stand up and throw in a dose of reality.
A bit of scaling back would seriously help this project.

Concerning the phrase "go away", consider it done. I won't bother you any more.

"Drink deep from the well of knowledge, for while it is drinking that drunkens us, it is largely drinking more that sobers us"
Bob

[Mariss Freimanis]

No need to go away.:-) Let's toss both ideas around a little and see how they land.

1) Unrealistic expectations. It's only unrealistic if you have given your personal best and find that despite your efforts the goal still eludes you. This can be because it violates laws of physics (perpetual motion), it is beyond your IQ level or the resources required are beyond your $$$ level. IQ and $$$ grow with experience.:-)

In my opinion you should always aim higher than you can reasonably reach. It makes the effort noble because you operate outside your comfort zone and success is not assured. You are not doing the easy thing. The effort of reaching towards a high goal stretches your mind and makes it limber. Even if you don't reach it, you will certainly learn things you didn't know before.

Reaching also leaves you open to serendipity. Discoveries are not announced with "Eureka, I have found it!" but rather with "That's interesting; now why did it do that?"

2) Taking money. I think I'm with on that but for different reasons. If you are building a wall then it's reasonable to take money up front. You have to buy materials and there is little question a wall will be standing after you finish.

It's risky for your personal reputation and peace of mind to accept money for a goal that isn't absolutely assured. You are not laying concrete blocks where you can estimate the finish time to within a day or so. Serenity comes from saying "It will be finished when it's done" because you owe no obligation apart from what your work towards a goal demands.

Mariss

[Switcher]

Wise man say - Never set a deadline.


.

[Mariss Freimanis]

It's kind of tough to set a deadline on stuff like this because I don't know anymore than anyone else when things will turn out.

As you work, you keep in your head a hierarchy of potential sticking points and unknown stuff that lies between you and the goal. The kind of stuff you rummage through after the TV and lights are off but before you fall asleep. Some things you have marked as big hurdles turn out to be easy, others you have marked as easy turn into real bears when you tackle them.

Projects themselves take on personalities. I have completed the G201X and the G320X redesigns. Both are "in the can" and production boards are in-process. When I started, I had the G320X pegged as a bear and the G201X as a "cute pre-adolescent domesticated feline mammalian quadruped" (can't say p***ycat; the zone robo-censors will get you). It turned out the other way; some projects fight you every inch of the way while others just go "meow" and only want their belly scratched.

Mariss

[PEU]

Mariss,

We knew about the CNCBrain in this thread more than 10 months ago. At the time Bruce the (sole?) developer replied to questions/doubts almost daily, hourly sometimes.

This gave most of us a very good image about this new product, an image every customer wants to see, that is: very responsive customer service, you Mariss are the living example of this.

The big difference is that you Mariss deliver on your promises, maybe with some bumps along the road (your cheap drives thread comes to mind) but the product is delivered

Under the excuse of being in development (not as the title said: CNC Brain is ready!...) the support faded away, heck, the developer faded away, he took a govt job, the result is the same, no more updates, no more fixes, no delivery of promised features, etc.

This is just another example of marketing being disconnected from reality.

I had patience... I had hopes for such a nice product, I think the product will never be delivered, I also hope I'm proved wrong...


I wish Bruce good luck... honestly!


Pablo

[kmcwhq]

From my view point, I have to agree with Pablo.
I emailed a couple weeks ago, and did get a delayed response. While it sounded reassuring,
my "when" question was skirted with "alpha testers are testing, then Beta testers will test", production people and procedures in place, etc. But...I asked again, the testing sounds great, but is that weeks or months?
No indication or prediction of WHEN. More like political campaign promises. Sorry, but that's my take on it.....

Considering the "CNC Brain IS READY!" thread, I think people are rightly disappointed at this time.

I have a good sized collection of machines specifically waiting, no dying......er.....no.... DEAD AND WAITING ....for a low cost control solution just like cnc brain. So it was a big pick-me-up and huge let down to go thru this.

Sincerely hope we could get a DETAILED time line of progress and predictions here.
After the open enthusiasm and excitement about all the cool features and possibilities, the sudden near-silence and vague hints of 'things are going well' leaves a hollow feeling.

dk

[turmite]

Bob, I agree with Mariss, no need to go away, but I would sure like an answer to the question that was posed to you when the suggestion to go away was offered. Do you own a Brain?

I do, and there are several others that do, but for the most part, the people who own them do not seem to be the ones complaining. That is not to say that we are not frustrated as well, but I think, possibly, we do see the forest, in spite of the trees.

I have made this statement here before, and I will repeat it once more. Bruce invested his life savings into this project and when the opportunity came up for a unbelievable job he took it. Who amoung us would not have done the same thing? The taking of that job made it necessary to scale back some on the Brain, but it hasn't stopped. He knows that many are angry at him, but it is one of those things he is going to make someone unhappy regardless of his decisions. I personally would rather make some of you unhappy than my creditors, and I firmly believe you would do the same.

As to my own CNC Brain, I have yet to hook it up because I only need the double closed loop for a very large foot print machine and cannot afford glass scales. I have, and will continue to wait on Bruce, and support him because I need affordable long scales, and he is working on those. Could I use them right now.....sure. Am I angry because he doesn't have them finished? In no way, because I know what it is to be a husband and father and have the need to provide, regardless of the cost.

Peu, Mariss has a supporting cast surrounding him to allow him the time to dedicate to development. Bruce didn't. I know he has been trying to add people in those supporting roles, but I have no idea how that is coming.

Carbidebob, Bruce did not take money but he sold product. Big difference. In addition, the product worked like advertized, other than a few bugs, which Mariss can attest to, happens. If you have a CNCBrain, and it doesn't work, you have a complaint but otherwise it seems to me your statements are "pot stirring"!

kmcwhq I saved my comments to you for last! These machines you talk about? What are they? Do they currently have glass scales on them? Do you own a CNCBrain? If not, I will make you a deal right here, right now. If you meet certain requirements, I will sell you my CNCBrain for 1/2 price with the agreement that you publicly agree to either sell it back to me for same, or replace it at a later date, and that you publicly do your build here on the Zone with a new thread, lots of photos and step by step descricptions of your retrofit. The key issue is that you must have a machine that is in good condition mechanically, and it must have glass scales already mounted and in good condition? Interested?

Mike

Well I see I've revved up a few people.
Good that was my intention.

I have a very large problem with anyone who announces that their product is ready and suck money from people's pockets and then say "we will get it working any day now".

There are those here that have commanded my respect, notably Mariss and NC Cams. Both of whom have many times demonstrated their in depth knowledge of motion control engineering and machine dynamics.

Yes Mariss, I know I'm throwing out the proverbial "wet blanket".
Sorry bout that but I've had dozens of bright engineers working for me with unrealistic expectations and at some point you have to stand up and throw in a dose of reality.
A bit of scaling back would seriously help this project.

Concerning the phrase "go away", consider it done. I won't bother you any more.

"Drink deep from the well of knowledge, for while it is drinking that drunkens us, it is largely drinking more that sobers us"
Bob

[Mariss Freimanis]

Unless you have started a business yourself and by yourself, you have no idea how hard it is and what sacrifices you have to endure in the beginning.

1) You have no money. You run through your savings and you laugh later at yourself because you thought it would be plenty. Development, prototyping and components cost money. No sales means money goes out the door while no money is coming in.

2) You have to do everything. You are the designer, the purchasing manager, the marketing department, the production assembly work-force, the shipping department, customer relations and the accounting department. You are also the CEO that does strategic planning for your vast realm. You work 16 hour days, 100-hour weeks.

3) You don't appear on the radar. You have a stealth company because no one knows you exist. Try making the first crucial sales of your great new idea; you better be good at accepting rejection. It's an uphill struggle because you don't have an established reputation and that makes potential customers nervous.

4) Courage and perseverance. You'll need both. At some point you wonder just how smart was it to do this. You have responsibilities and obligations to your family while here you are, selfishly chasing your dream. You have a wife and child; it's winter and you are scrounging industrial dumpsters for oak loading pallets. You need to burn them in your fireplace because you can't afford to use your gas-fired house furnace. That's a little bit of my personal history from the mid-80's.

5) You have bugs. An innovative new product always has bugs when it first ships. No matter how diligent you are, you cannot go through every permutation of how the product will be applied. Your customers can and they will. Your customers give you the feedback necessary to track down each bug and eradicate it.

I admire what Bruce is trying to do and having walked in his shoes, I have some idea what it is costing him. I urge his critics to cut him some slack.

Mariss

[turmite]

Thank you Mariss,

You said so elequoently what I tried to say. Having been, and still at the place you speak of, I too know what Bruce is going through.

Mike

[The Blight]

As you work, you keep in your head a hierarchy of potential sticking points and unknown stuff that lies between you and the goal. The kind of stuff you rummage through after the TV and lights are off but before you fall asleep. Some things you have marked as big hurdles turn out to be easy, others you have marked as easy turn into real bears when you tackle them.

Too true. Well it actually keeps me from falling asleep. The list is huge, and it's getting bigger as I discover new problems. I'm working on a motion controller too, and it was one of those projects that started out as a funny idea, but it's getting pretty big. I have been toying with the idea of using glass scales, but I can also see the problems with closed loop controllers, so I know how hard it must be for Bruce to make the brain work.

If my motion controller project fails, I believe I will try the brain. Looks like a promissing controller.

[Al_The_Man]

I too have been fortunate to have found a need and filled it.
But I think the recurring theme here is that many are upset that something was declared 10 months as 'Ready now' it and now appears not to be.
Perhaps those that took it literally would have preferred to know the truth that it was something in the works and would be finalized after Beta and field testing etc?
This is my conclusion after following it from the beginning.
Al.

[Mariss Freimanis]

Al,

Every time I design a new product, I live in mortal fear it may have some significant flaw that has been missed. I don't begin to relax until it has been in the field and in quantity for a few months. The original G201 REV0 drives (1999) had such a flaw. The drives would blow up on power-up for some people. When released, they too were "Ready now". Hundreds were recalled and replaced with REV1 drives that corrected an obscure problem with the International Rectifier half-bridge drivers. The cause and cure was written-up by IR in an even more obscure Application Note I had missed.

My point is everyone whose pride and reputation is tied up with what their work produces says "Ready Now!" because, to the best of their abilities, they believe it is.

The G201 is in its 16th and final revision. There will never be a G201 REV17 because it will be supplanted with the G201X REV0 in June which will do more and cost less. The 16 revisions since REV0 means we had the luxury of sales income to continuously improve and hone the product to all the perfection that design was capable of.

What if after the disastrous G201 REV0 people had called for our heads? Said we promised a lot but delivered little? We took a bath when we least could afford it replacing them. Just a little shove then would have been enough to make me give up.

By the way, the G250 was not a mistake, the G100 was and I wish I had never designed it.

Every G540 carries 4 G250s and G540s are flying off the shelves. It and the G250s are a runaway success. Soon a G540 variant will contain a 3rd-party developed USB motion controller and an SD card slot that can operate autonomously from the SD card. That's all I can say on it for now. No, it's not the Smoothstepper.:-)

The G100 was a mistake because I forgot what it was that we do. We design motor drives, not digital hardware. It was something that would have put us out of business had it been as successful as I initially hoped. Good thing it wasn't; we really dodged a bullet there.

Mariss

[the4thseal]

mariss......every time you open your mouth with some thing that is made out of unobtainium that is rapped in pure needium, it drives me nuts. i will say it now, what ever it is you are up too, and you can not talk about, i want it now and i can not wait. so i will tell you this .......you do not have to talk about it, just box it up and send it to me.

[PEU]

Unless you have started a business yourself and by yourself, you have no idea how hard it is and what sacrifices you have to endure in the beginning.

Been there, Done That, Im self employed since I was 18, can't be happier, started many businesses, only 3 were/are succesfull

Soon a G540 variant will contain a 3rd-party developed USB motion controller and an SD card slot that can operate autonomously from the SD card. That's all I can say on it for now. No, it's not the Smoothstepper.:-)

This is (ethically poor) marketing, unlike Bruce with this post of yours, when you started back then in 1999 you didn't had a well known competitor make such an announcement on the very thread that discusses your flagship product...

Im willing (craving) to read about it, but not in this thread...


Pablo

[turmite]

Been there, Done That, Im self employed since I was 18, can't be happier, started many businesses, only 3 were/are succesfull



This is (ethically poor) marketing, unlike Bruce with this post of yours, when you started back then in 1999 you didn't had a well known competitor make such an announcement on the very thread that discusses your flagship product...

Im willing (craving) to read about it, but not in this thread...


Pablo

Pablo, read Mariss' statement real close.

Mike

[kmcwhq]

kmcwhq I saved my comments to you for last! These machines you talk about? What are they?

Well, I don't know if this is considered a thread hi-jack, if it is I will delete this post.

....But...since you asked.....here are some pictures of SOME of the machines I can pick from to utilize with the Brain.....or.....whatever....none of my currently running machines that I use daily are pictured here, and some of them could also benefit from new controls.
I sent these pics and more to Bruce last summer.

I too, am self employed and have been since 1982.
My machines are old and I struggle with old cnc controls and all the reliability and non-user-friendly issues associated with them. Imagine my excitement when I stumbled onto CNC Brain! How bad do I want Bruce to be successful with this project!??
The Analog board will save lots of time and money by allowing the existing drives in these machines to be used. Most of them have tool changers or turrets, so an "easy" PLC solution to control them that "I" can implement myself would be just fantastic, as I can't afford $75 or $100/hour for an electronics engineer to do these projects. The potential for this equipment to help me grow my business with relatively little investment or cash outlay is what keeps me driving on, and makes me get up in the morning......still.

I certainly agree with all the comments about self employment.
I have fought insomnia for years, the "videos" of what didn't get done, and what needs to be done play in my head at night and keep me from getting much needed rest. Friends that "work for a living" think I have it made with setting my own hours, and "all the free time" I have
to "play with my toys" in my shop.
You have to walk a mile in a mans shoes......

Anyway.....some iron...

Open cnc mill w/toolchanger:



Mazak V5:



Hardinge CHNC Lathe:



Hardinge conquest 42 Lathe:
(Motors but no control, disassembled but complete. This machine was an R&D project, & has never cut metal)



Large J&L lathe, w/ 3" bar feed capacity:



Excello 208 HMC:



Hillyer 600 Bridgemill:



Yasda HMC, twin pallet:

[Switcher]

That Hillyer 600, has a monster z-axis!

It looks like it's about the same height as that manual Bridgeport, in the background?