[ciccio]

Is someone interested in building a SMD pick and place ?
I mean a little, not-so-fast, not for very small package pick
and place.
Any idea about hardware and software is really appreciated !

[alexg]

I am interested.. I already started something but the results are really not very good.. I made a "bindomatic"... The space between the bearings blocks is too big and it just binds all the time. I will have quite a hard time to fix it without spending much more money than I already have..

Do you have any clean ideas in mind ? The software part will not be the hardest if your PCB program can export XY coordinates for the parts centering.]

Best regards,
Alexandre

[ViperTX]

I am interested.. I already started something but the results are really not very good.. I made a "bindomatic"... The space between the bearings blocks is too big and it just binds all the time. I will have quite a hard time to fix it without spending much more money than I already have..

Do you have any clean ideas in mind ? The software part will not be the hardest if your PCB program can export XY coordinates for the parts centering.]

Best regards,
Alexandre

Cute....a bindomatic... :banana: you can probably patten it...but seriously, I suspect that you have an alignment problem, or is your base is not flat & stable to the movement that will torque your rails out-of-alignment.

[alexg]

Cute....a bindomatic... :banana: you can probably patten it...but seriously, I suspect that you have an alignment problem, or is your base is not flat & stable to the movement that will torque your rails out-of-alignment.

The "bindomatic" new word is something I read at one of John "cranky" ********** message somehwere.. It really defines my first go on the machine very well...

I used Igus bearings and the guy that made the mechanics for me ignored my warnings that the bearings should be at 1/2 the width of the space perpendicular to them as Igus clearly states for their bearings. It will just keep binding until that rule is covered or I get other kind of bearings.

Best regards,
Alexandre

[ViperTX]

Are you trying to place electronic components onto pads for some vapor soldering? If so then it's more then just simple x-y...there is component size, type, orientation, alignment to the pcb's datum lines, etc.

[alexg]

Are you trying to place electronic components onto pads for some vapor soldering? If so then it's more then just simple x-y...there is component size, type, orientation, alignment to the pcb's datum lines, etc.

They will go into a reflow oven. Component type and orientation is also part of most BOM generated by PCB's programs. And for small productions that could even be entered by hand without much trouble. If someone can make me do a nice machine I can come with the software that will read the info from a text file and move the steppers around to make it all work.. My problems really are with the mechanics and specially the lack of good mechanical tools. I would love to see some simple and fast stuff that could be produced with just hand tools.. Or something that I could just submit to a machine shop and have the parts done easily. This machine is different from a router because it has to be much faster and do not have to cope with cutting forces.


Best regards,
Alexandre

[ciccio]

I think we can cut a big problem in some more smaller problems, and so on till we find a good, working, inexpensive solution. Is this way OK for you ?
The machine is SOFTWARE + HARDWARE.
Software can be a problem for me, but probably not for Alexg, so first problem is solved
Hardware: we can cut in 3 parts: the X Y Z plus Rotation " plotter",
feeders, and the most complicated part, the "head" with all the pick and place goodies.
Alexg: can you tell us more about your experience?
Thanks to all, we are a good team.
Paolo

[alexg]

I think we can cut a big problem in some more smaller problems, and so on till we find a good, working, inexpensive solution. Is this way OK for you ?
The machine is SOFTWARE + HARDWARE.
Software can be a problem for me, but probably not for Alexg, so first problem is solved
Hardware: we can cut in 3 parts: the X Y Z plus Rotation " plotter",
feeders, and the most complicated part, the "head" with all the pick and place goodies.
Alexg: can you tell us more about your experience?
Thanks to all, we are a good team.
Paolo

Ok.. Let's forget the software by now... It is not trivial but more than easy enough to solve when the machine is operational..

The Z, rotation and vacuum pick and place is also quite easy. What I made was using 2 small steppers with screws attached to them that go on a Igus Drylin N "shuttle". The top one drives the "shuttle" up and down and the bottom one is connected to a small vacuum pickup tool and makes the rotation.

X and Y should be quite fast to be usefull..

In my humble thinking we can survive with about 0.3 mm of combined precision. That should not be a big problem..

Another problem to be dealt with afterwards is how to take the components from their original rools. But that is a hole new story...

Best regards,
Alexandre

[ciccio]

I have just received from Distrelec a " P 830 vacuum pick up ":
it does NOT work, suction cups are not precise, and move easely.
What do you suggest ( and are using ) to pick up the SMD?
What vacuum pump do you use ( refrigerator or bigger pump) ?
The suction cup is my biggest problem, I do not think to have
problem with the " plotter", I will use FLEXLINK or BOSCH RETHROT
alluminium and accessories, plus SYNCHROPOWER belts, as used in
my Bungard PCB driller : simple, noiseless, fast, and , after all, inexpensive.
If needed, I can send you pictures and RS catalogue part numbers.
How are built suction cups in commercial pick & place ?
Any picture of simple " squaring station "?
Paolo

[Mariss Freimanis]

Alexandre,

I know what you mean, hand-mounting SMT parts. I have to hand-mount 0805s, SOICs, SOT-23s, etc. on prototype boards. Once they work, we order-up a stencil, paste the panels and put them in the Zevatech FS-730s which places parts to the tune of 3 per second.

Until that happy point it's a pair of needle-sharp tweezers, a Nikon stereo zoom low-power microscope, a Hakko 851 hot-air rework station and a very, very steady hand. Thank God for solder surface tension; it corrects a lot of near-misses.

Mariss

[ciccio]

Dear Mariss, can you make us a present? Some detailed pictures of the head
of your pick and place ? We will really apppreciate it. And any suggestion from a user is very important in this stage of developement:
We count on you, Mariss
Thanks
Paolo

[ciccio]

...adding a turbo and some nitrous, maybe, we can.......

[alexg]

Alexandre,

I know what you mean, hand-mounting SMT parts. I have to hand-mount 0805s, SOICs, SOT-23s, etc. on prototype boards. Once they work, we order-up a stencil, paste the panels and put them in the Zevatech FS-730s which places parts to the tune of 3 per second.

Until that happy point it's a pair of needle-sharp tweezers, a Nikon stereo zoom low-power microscope, a Hakko 851 hot-air rework station and a very, very steady hand. Thank God for solder surface tension; it corrects a lot of near-misses.

Mariss

Hi, Marris

Nice to see you in this thread.. Lots of real World experience with the pick and places machines combined with the best drivers for the price that I have ever heard off :cheers:

Placing by hand is a PITA most of the times and the mistakes are inevitable. You can imagine my situation. My small company produces about 10 to 15 boards everyday with hand placement. I do not have enough money available to buy a real machine... So the easiest path available is make a machine.. My idea is to make it really easy to program and use for small runs.. Maybe even for your prototypes What program do you use to design the boards ? Can you extract a small portion of the BOM with the placement information ? So I can check if it is similar to the one I have ?

Other function of the machine will necessarily place solder paste with a pneumatic dispenser. This way we can eliminate the need for the stencil for short runs. The pneumatic control is already working and I plan to integrate everuthing together once I have a machine that really works... And not the crap I made...

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

[Mariss Freimanis]

Uh, maybe that's not a good idea...

The machine is a 5' by 5' by 5' cube and weighs 3,000 lbs. It is a 3-head, gantry type machine. The heaviest part (X axis) probably weighs 100 - 150 lbs, moves at around 4 feet per second and accelerates at around 4 - 5G.

The machine is bolted to the floor. Were it not, it would chase me all over the shop like an insane, badly loaded washing machine. You don't know fear until you have had a 3,000 lb machine come looking for you. Ask me how I know.:-)

Mariss

[ciccio]

Here is my material for Z axis test
We will try to build a longer axis for the " rotation " stepper, to put
needle on the lower side and an attachement for tube in the upper.
Paolo

[ciccio]

Hi, is there someone on this web site?

[ViperTX]

Yes, why???

[ciccio]

Yes, why???

Can someone help me with the following info?
squaring station : I need info and pictures
suction needle: internal diameter of the most used
suction needle: what is the value of vacuum ?
Thank you
Paolo

[ViperTX]

Can someone help me with the following info?
squaring station : I need info and pictures
suction needle: internal diameter of the most used
suction needle: what is the value of vacuum ?
Thank you
Paolo

Vacuum is generally measure in inches of mercury. I'm not sure about the size of the pickup needles most are very tiny...in the range of an inside diameter of 0.015 to 0.03, the ends have cups that are very pliable....I suspect they are a silicone.

[scottsss]

I do not know if this helps or not, but I've worked with pick and place and chip shooters for over 7 years. One of the big things to consider is that on all the machines I've ever worked with the the machine will turn on the vaccum for picking up and carrying of the componet. But as the machine places the componet vaccume is reversed and the componet is helped off the nozzle with a gentle burst of air. Very important with smaller 0402's 0603, 0201's.

Nozzle size is dictated by what your going to try and pick up. The larger the part the larger the nozzle. Nozzles material varies much between differnt manufactures as does the pattern a nozzle can have. Panasonic for some of the smaller nozzles used a diamon epozy tip that supposedly lasted longer. The opening was an "X" shape. But that was for the smaller chips. After that they went over to straight tubes. For the really large parts you could get into custome nozzles down to robotic gripper like arms for some connectors.

Fuji, the nozzles were aluminum, but they would mushroom over time. So the switched over to stainless steel. I still have a windmill off a chip shooter. Missing a nozzle or two for it but I'll try and post a picture of it Friday. I have finals tommorrow and should be studying.

Their use to be a company called manncorp
Did a goggel for them. They are still in buisness. http://www.manncorp.com/

They use to put out a brochure that had alot of closeup of their equipment and you could see how it all worked. They had a very primative machine that used a tray at a angle to center the componets. It was to primative for the company I worked for then's needs but their constant bombardment of myself with sales liturature made me atleast remember their name.

Take a look at their site and fill out the web form so you can get the brochures for the machines. I don't think they offer the really primative SMT placer any mre since I didn not see it on their site, but a call to them might yield an old brochure.