[thinkingcnc]

I have just come back from an SCM trip to it's factory in Italy. Nice trip and I had a good time, although the food wasn't as good as I expected. While I was there I met several other joinery business owners/managers. To my amazement many of us had either bought or nearly bought a MW machine. The ones who had bought had some very interesting stories to tell. Infact, for most of the night we talked about MW. We joked that we were the 'MW fan club', ironically on an SCM trip.

If there is one piece of advise that I could give to anyone thinking of spending a fortune on a CNC machine is to download company accounts, directors searches and for God's sake, read the terms and conditions.

[joinerman]

I find your thread quite ironic, there were nearly 50 of us from the UK very recently at the Masterwood factory in Italy, and like yourself most of us had spoken with SCM and quite a few been on their jolly to the SCM factory.

What the majority of us came to is almost all of us thought and could clearly see that for a solid timber joinery company Masterwood had all the answers and it can be clearly seen that they can back this up with the companies in the UK using their kit to produce stairs and windows. SCM could not show us this in the UK. We could also see that their window software was far superior than any other on the market.
There was alot of talk about SCM's background of the panel machines being used for solid wood!! We also noticed that Masterwood use a far superior table from a company called SCHMALZ. Yes this is a bought in part and its expensive but you could see why. The SCM table/arms etc are made in house to lessen the cost but its frought with problems. I also noticed that the router heads they use were under rated for solid timber.
My advice if you want hear it is there are many companies that have had agencies in the Uk and have all tried to sell the same cnc at some point. I personally and the thoughts of a few fellow companies on the trip is that we would not touch SCM, only because the product is not man enough for the job and the software is a nightmare.
I take on board your suspicions etc about Masterwood UK, but I for one I will deal direct with the Italians after all if I lived in America I would have no choice. I have spoke with many Masterwood customers in the UK some with the most modern CNC and all tell me that the back up and service from the uk engineers is excellent, they know everything about your machine and the software. This is not true about SCM engineers, my old scm record took 6 weeks to sort out a software problem. Arse and elbow come to mind!!
If you have any reservations I suggest you talk to Masterwood in Italy, they have assured me and I will be ordering my my new Project 4000 shortly.

[thinkingcnc]

Hi joinerman: Great response, thank you.

I have also been to the masterwood SPa trip in Italy. You say that the tables that masterwood use are made by a company called SCHMALZ. I wasn't told this by their UK rep and it is the first I have heard of SCHMALZ. He told me that masterwood made their own beds in another factory somewhere else in Italy and that this factory was owned by Masterwood.

I wasn't happy with MW because the rep basically treated me as if I were an idiot. He was selling the machine to me on the premise that everything for the MW machine was all under one roof. This included the software and maintenance. He went on to tell me that MW didn't use subcontractors for maintenance and everyone including himself was employed directly by MW. He said that when someone bought a MW machine they became part of the 'MW family'. He told me that all the software was developed by MW specificaly for MW machines so there would be no bugs in the system. He really emphasised this point that all the software was developed in house and he told me about all the third party software being not as compatible and very problematic. They also emphasised how the MW was the only real solid wood working machine and was in no way a panel machine. Does any of this sound familiar?

When I looked into the company accounts and structure I found a very different story. 'Masterwood Uk' is not to be confused with 'Masterwood SPA', they are completey different companies but they both use the masterwood name. As for the software they sell. Just ask them where exactly it is developed? Is it in the UK or Italy or Both? What companies developed it? Was it MW spa or was it MW UK or was it third party companies? Just remember it's not supposed to be developed by third parties as it's all supposed to be developed in house.

Scm as a panel machine. Well the prisma 5 axis machine has a z axis of 640mm and a maximum material thickness of 370mm. With this large z axis you can have two tools on a single shaft/tool holder to save on space in the carosel. It has a narrowish bed of about 1.2m where panel machines normaly have a lot deeper beds of 1.3m to 1.6m. The prisma 132 has easily interchangable cups and clamps, i.e., no screws to take out and put back in which is very time consuming. I cannot remember how the cups and clamps are changed over on the masterwood machines. How do you change your cups and clamps on your MW?

The prisma has a fancy extraction system in which there are valves on the ducting to redirect the suction depending on what the router head is doing. This is a good attempt at extracting a 5 axis which is very diffcult.

The router head is 20HP. What do you mean by under rated?

You say scm's arms are fraught with problems. This is the first I have heard of this. Do you mind telling me what sort of problems?

Ok. You are ordering a 4000. Very nice looking machine. I draw your attention to MW spa’s terms and conditions. If your T&C are the same as mine, just read ART7.1, what does this say about their software in comparison to what you have been lead to believe. While you are at it, have a read of 6.7 concerning electric parts. Also MW UK's T&C; have a read of ART3.2. what do you think of this?

[joinerman]

Hello thinkingcnc,

I am a bit surprised to hear you have been to Masterwood and still cannot see some huge fundamental differences.
Obviously I can only speak from my experience but I honestly thought that all of the Masterwood sales reps were very professional and all had answers to any of my questions, they all seemed to be very knowledgeable of our industry and very confident and proud of the Masterwood machines they were selling. I am not an idiot? and my background is engineering, but everything was explained very easily and their arguments really stood up, especially the quality of the machines.

Yes, salesman can be sometimes over excited or skip the detail, but you have do your own homework. Its true that the masterwood beds are fabricated elsewhere but the actual support arms are by scmhalz which are machined accuratly at the factory. They have a great reputation for being dust free and long lasting. They have no tubes you see that can be damaged etc and they have twin vacuum. The vac cups are I think about 100mm high which is great for joinery and the clamps sit directly on the arm reinforcing accuracy and support when your machining a window section. You simply place the cups any where on the arm and the same with the clamps they just plug straight into a sliding socket - so easy. If I recall the SCM tvn table is single vacuum and works on a ball and spring for vacuum blocking. To me I could see all sorts of dust problems. The arms looked very feeble and cheap also, and the clamps were on the side of the arms ??

I understand about the software, I was a bit confused also. But this is how I see it. I was demonstrated all of the Masterwood software, but was told that some was written in Italy and some in the Uk. I didn't see this has a problem? There are different markets for the world, but what did satisfy me was that it very simple and completely compatible. I have had this confirmed by users in the UK (I called a few when I got back without anyone knowing !!??).I class a third party as that they write software for anyones machine and have no real understanding or relationship with the machine supplier. So who cares where the Masterwood software is written, I just care that its written for the Masterwood machine and WORKS,
I really don't have an issues for who works for who, I have had so called SCM engineers here who are sub contractors. The Masterwood engineers, again I have checked this and they all have high praise.

I considered 5 axis and was extremely impressed by the Masterwood 5 axis machine, the construction of the bed and canterlever arm was much better engineered than the SCM and the router head was substantiously strong being supported on both sides. I have seen the same head being used on huge German CNC's in the metal engineering companies here. Their z axis is also 370mm, but I was concerned about the head being knocked out of its limits say if you hit an awkward peice of timber. It was also limited to a certain tool diameter and I need to use larger tools especially on my windows.
I am plumping for the new 4000, its just years ahead of what I saw at SCM. Firstly its built like a brick preverbial, using the gantry system guarentees even more stability and accuracy and its leading egde technology and its was extremely easy on the pocket?
Scm are well renound for the big market slice of the panel industry, the same base and arms are used for a panel machine and joinery, did you not see this at the factory? I noticed at the Masterwood factory they built the machine to suit your industry, the panel machines I saw were very different. As for the fancy extraction you say I have this option on the 4000 thats nothing new. You say 20hp router, I ask you this who makes it?? I know these are made at SCM whatever anyone tells you? This is to make the machine cheaper. I don't mind if Masterwood buy theirs in becuase I know its the best and if I have to pay for this benefit then so be it.
T&C's hey, well I am buying direct and the UK know this. I have an agrrement to use the UK engineers and I have italys T&C's and find them assuring. I have all the warranties on the machine that are normal and what about electrics - all are guarenteed for a year? T&C's never favour the buyer but I am satisfied. Software is all guarenteed also? Cant say that about a third parties?

Sorry its gone on abit there thinkincnc, but I felt I must try and answer your concerns. It sound like your not very trusting or unsure about what your getting yourself into. You should really try and compare the masterwood machine to the scm.

Anyway if you need a soundboard I,m here.

Joineryman

[thinkingcnc]

My rep told me that MW made their own router motors. I don't mind if MW buys routers in either, but it's not what I was told.

Yes, the MW 5 axis router did look at lot more sturdy with two supports on either side of it. The SCM only has one support on it's router. I will question this.

I have been told that buying direct from a foreign firm is a 'no no', because if anything goes wrong litigation will be virtually impossible as it is outside UK law.

If you have Italy's T&C they must be different to mine. Here is the first line of ART6.7: "The guarantee further more does not cover the electric parts..."
I questioned the rep on this and he basically told me to ignore it which wasn't accepted to me. ART7.1 is too long for me to write out but they use the words "as they are" which to me means 'sold as seen'. This doesn't sound like a guarantee to me. T&Cs are very important because you are signing to say that you accept them and if you have a problem after you have bought the machine, I'm sure they will be only to happy to remind you of this.

Thanks for info on arms, I will look into this. I saw where SCM makes their router motors. It was a small workshop within the factory. I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. "Jack of all trades and master of none" springs to mind.

As regards maintenance, my MW rep told me they charge £200 per hour, all other firms charge £50 to £60. I was never offered a separate agreement with the UK engineers for MW. I do care how the engineers are employed because if 'MW UK' disappears I want to know they don't disappear as well.

MW's software. You will probably have to buy it from CJS. Doesn't it concern you that this company is about 6 months old. You do know there were other software companies before CJS. Look at how long the other software companies have been in business and you'll find it is a lot longer than 6 months.

I haves started a thread on another forum entitled "What is the difference between a panel machine and a joinery machine". I wanted to clarify the differences.

No, I didn't notice the same bodies and arms being used on their panel machines. I will ask the question.

[thinkingcnc]

Joinerman: Is the 4000 a 5 axis or 3-4 axis machine? I seem to remember seeing it at the MW show with a 5 axis router on it. I also remember the MW 5 axis router was only 15HP. My rep told me this was not powerful enough to drive the 320mm tooling, I would need the 3-4 axis 20HP router for this. Therefore the SCM 5-axis is more powerful than the MW 5-axis router. Although the MW 5 axis router looked very strong.

What do you mean the SCM prisma cannot take large tooling? My SCM rep and my Ortley tooling rep told me that the prisma could take a maximum of 300mm tooling and it can take a tooling weight of 8KG on it's 24 position tool changer. I seem to remember the MW tool changer was only 18 position and it could only take up to 220mm tooling, thats why MW has to put a separate 2 or 4 position tool changer on the end. I cannot remember what weight tooling MW's 18 position tool changer could take.

If you have had a quotation on the 4000 then you will definitely have MW UK's T&Cs because they should be on the end of the quote. Maybe you haven't been given MW spa's T&Cs yet.

BTW. When you google 'masterwood UK' this thread is on the first page.

[joinerman]

Thinkingcnc , hello again -

The 4000 if I recall correctly is what you want it to be, it can have the 5 axis head or you can have 3/4 axis or one of each. You are right there was a 4000 5 axis machine being demonstrated to us. I was with another company out there who wanted the 5 axis unit to turn 320mm tools and this was not a problem, they were more intersted in the 5000. What a machine that was, but a bit out of my budget. Were going with the 4000 with 3 axis but with additional front and rear routers so we do not have to use aggregate units. I am happy that all my units are directly driven. We do quie a few stairs and we could have the longer bed on this model.
Dont take my word for this I am just trying to recall everything but I saw some machines in the factory with large carousels at the end of the machine. We were told that these can have large dia tools but could also take some exceptional aggregates of some size and weight. We have a standard 18 pos tool carousel but we could have had larger ones, I think one was nearly 50??
How many tools at 300 can you get at any one time on your carousel? The weights on our machine are the same about 8kg and 220 dia is fine for us.

To answer your t&c query, I do not have a uk quote, I am dealing with the italians and their t&c are fine. I was also shocked about your quote of £200 per hour for an engineer. I have called my rep today and confirmed that it is actually £55 per hour. If I were you I would check with your rep again, he was probably telling you his rate ha ha.

On the first page hey, I wont let fame go to my head.

[battwell]

you 2 sound like me and my ex wife!
by the way, i drive biesse

[thinkingcnc]

Hi battwell: My MW rep slagged off biesse. Their machine broke down at W8 NEC exhibition. They were using DDX(If I remember correctly) software at the time. I talked to the Italian DDX rep at the W8 show, the language barrier was intolerable. After getting back from the W8 show I rang Biesse's main office in Italy. I asked them a simple question which was "Can you put me through to sales please?". This was too much for them and after being passed from pillar to post I ended up in credit control, so I just hung up and that was the end of Biesse for me.

Joinerman. It seems your rep was different to mine. We have both been told different things about what size motor you need to drive 320mm tooling. I have been told, by other sources, that if you have a smaller power motor you have to take smaller bites out of the timber so a 15HP router would need to do it in more passes than a 20HP motor. But my MW rep told me out right that 15HP was not powerful enough to drive 320mm tooling.

What your rep will have not told you is that aggregates can only run at certain speeds, i.e., not optimum tool speeds. They give inaccuracies and they don't last forever.

I believe the SCM carosel holds 24 at 150mm. If you start putting in 220mm and 300mm tools you start losing places and have to do some jiggery pokery with overlapping the tools. So, I do not know how many 300mm tools a 24 position carosel can take, probably not many as it would overlap a lot of spaces.

Yes, I quite agree, the 4000 did look impressive and even more so the 5000 and I was very disappointed that things turned out the way they did. In the end I just couldn't buy from a company where what it's reps said was completely different to what their T&C said. I can't understand why you say the T&C are fine. Yours must be different to mine.

If MW are so good, why can't they find a reputable outlet in the UK? There are a lot of reputable independent outlets with show rooms and assets in the UK such as NEY LTD or Calderbrook Woodworking Machinery Ltd. Why doesn't MW spa use one of these or others like them? It just doesn't add up.

MW's payment terms. 20% up front and 80% before dispatch. There is no way I would agree to this. I believe there is room for manuovre on this with SCM as they have a UK based show room so if anything goes wrong they can keep the machine there.

MW have sent me a flyer entitled "Tailor made". What's that all about. When they assemble a machine they use off the shelf components and assemble the machine according to the options you have chosen. It's like advertising a car as 'tailor made' just because you can choose to have a go faster stripe or alloy wheels as an optional extra. This is what I mean by being treated like an idiot.

[battwell]

im not rich enough to even dream about a new one! my biesse is an old 1993 clunker, but it still works daily.
if it needs programming i do it. if it needs fixing, i do it, didnt mean to jump in here but i thought the overheating argument required a bit of cooling before someone broke friends lol!

[thinkingcnc]

Batwell: It's very interesting that you can service your own cnc machine. I didn't know this was possible. I thought we would be 100% reliant on engineers.

If I come across as getting heated, I'm not meaning to be. I would even still consider buying a MW if the paperwork was in order. I admit the MW machines look very good, this is why it is hard for me to turn my back on them.

When I was on the SCM trip no one, who had bought a MW, had read the T&C. I was the only one who had refused to buy one on the grounds of the T&C.

I also know that at least one person from this SCM trip would like to join this thread but can't due to legal reasons.

[battwell]

a cnc machine is just metal, nuts and bolts and a few other bits! (the other bits being a bit more complicated but following the same theme as they can be taken off and changed or repaired)
i had meccano as a kid so i know which way a nut turns.
as my machine is old and not under warranty like a shiny new one then all i have to do is keep it going. if a ram doesnt work lubricate it, if a sensor doesnt work change it etc, if it means waiting for a tech to arrive it means the machine is not making money which is no good to me!
teething problems on an old machine are long sorted.

i would love a shiny new one and the money to keep it going. good luck with whatever you choose to buy.

[joinerman]

Hello thinkingcnc & welcome batwell,

Thanks for your comments batwell, wether you have an older machine or spanking new you are very true in your words regarding maintainence. Biesse hey? I have seen quite a few in the uk, some companies near me use them succesfully but they are all furniture based and shopfitters.

I am hopefully going to have my last say on this topic - Mr Thinkingcnc all you need to do is apply common sense to your thoughts. I have seen your other threads and its clear you seems your judgement is very cloudy. This is either that the info you have taken in has become that intense you have lost sight of what you really set out to achieve or you have been brainwashed like those before you by SCM??

This is my last five peneth - Router power and tooling diameter, apply common sense, 320mm dia tools I am guessing these could be door tennon tools, we looked into this becuase we do a few doors. Ok - Masterwood recommend 22.5hp router liquid cooled because to achieve this cut the tool needs to be rotating around 4000rpm (fairly slow for a router) but the tool perifial speed is a lot faster to achieve the clean cut. When the tool makes contact with the timber it natuarally hits some resistance (increased when using denser timber) so this is where you need the power of the motor to compensate this and be able to cut through the timber like a knife through butter. This was demo'd to us cutting 125mm tenon in one pass. I think your rep is correct in saying that 15hp is not enough, it may do it a few times but in the end the motor will burn itself out. Masterwood also use the best invertors this is crucial for controlling the low router speeds needed for joinery.

Aggregates again apply common sense - they are not meant to be used 8 hrs a day. This is why masterwood have horizontal direct driven routers for heavy duty work. You cannot expect a lightweight geared aggregate to rout out mortice locks all day say. Anyway you can get industrial oil filled aggregates if you wish, expensive but do the job. Our SCM quote was full of aggregates, they could not offer the same as Masterwood.

To differ slightly - again common apply common sense if it 5 axis you have decided on then go for a gantry machine with the double sided 5 axis router head. You will have the most accurate, solid and hard wearing machining center, if you saw the 5000 then you know what I mean. I personally think this will be the machine that sets the new standards.

Tailor made you say hmmmm, probably agree with you a little here. If you say you have been to Masterwood you would have seen that every machine being made was different specification for want of a word. Each machine is made to each customers spec. I did not see machine after machine of the same. SCM told me they make batches of machines the same to drive down cost ( fairly understandable until these machines are pushed onto unsuspecting customers under spec'd, the rest is history).

I shouldn't tell you this but hey ho in for a penny in for a pound - I have agreed with italy to retain a small percentage 60 days after install once I am satisfied with the machine. My finance company have agreed to be here upon machine arriving at the factory and transfer the balance on that day. I wouldn't hand over one of my beautiful oak cut string satircases without being paid for it.

Not sure where your coming from on dealers, this really does not effect me. I have negociated the deal that is right for me and I never got any real grief for my rep or the Italians. The dealers you have mentioned and if you have been aroud as long as me you will see that those you have mentioned have represented numerous cnc makers in their time. Where does that leave you in a years time once they have ditched one agency for another. These factors are out of your control, dealing direct is a sound business sense and common sense.

I hope we have exhausted this topic and not been to over heated mr batwell.
This is what a forum is for - debating that all. As for being treated like an idiot, don't be so hard on yourself - remember 'can't see the wood for the tree's' - we have!!

[battwell]

all forums make interesting reading to me regarding cnc.
this one tickled me!
i dont even know how i got here in the first place!
i presume mr thinkingcnc hasnt owned a cnc before? i hope he realises that they dont run and program themselves entirely. it took me a month to make a non sawdust or suitable for firewood only product!

[joinerman]

I think your right Mr Battwell, I don't think thinkingcnc owns a cnc?? I feel that he's completely missed the point. I for one know that I will have all the support, I have spoken to so many of Masterwood users I got bored of hearing the same praises. Your right there is a learning curve but I have every confidence in the software and machine working together, even have guarentees, thats a company who is confident in what they are selling.
Not so sure if its third partys involved nor getting to grips with 5 axis programming.

Over and out good buddy.

[thinkingcnc]

Joinerman: You say you can see the wood for the trees, lol, you can't see the writing that written in front of you. You think that they are not treating you like an idiot when they are telling you it has a years warrantee while making you sign a contract to the contrary, lol. I wish all my customers were as gullible as you. Mind you I wouldn't treat them like that in the first place.

Brainwashed: I still have an open mind, you obvioulsy don't. All the points you have made I will question my rep with. Does this sound like brainwashed?

At least you have used your common sense and are not parting with the bulk of your money until the machine arrives at your place.

So you are buying a horizontal router as well as aggregates. Common sense tells me this goes a good way towards a 5 axis. You say you manufacture stairs but you are buying a 3-4 axis thus cutting out the possibility of producing curved handrail that your competitors will produce, where's your common sense?

I never said I owned a cnc and I don't. That is why I've come on the forums to get independent advice. Common sense again.

Does MW keep a stock of spares in the UK? NO.
Does SCM keep a stock of spares in the UK? Yes.
Does MW UK have a commercial address, showroom or assests? NO
Does SCM UK have a showroom and substantial assests? Yes.
Does SCM have English technical support in this country?Yes.
When you ring MW help line will you have to speak with Johnny foreigner? Yes.
Does SCM offer a legitimate warrantee? Yes.
Does MW offer a legitimate warrantee? Open your eyes and read the T&C.

Don't take this personaly joinerman, I'm sure you are normally full of common sense. I wish you luck with your purchase, you will need it.

[thinkingcnc]

Another thing I have noticed. If you go on youtube you will find lots of footage of different makes and models of cnc machines. Guess which manufacturer hasn't put any footage of it's machines on? Well there were two clips of old machines when I checked.

If a manufacturer of cnc machines was proud of it's machines you would have thought they would have showed their machines off in anyway they could and what better way than on youtube.

Joinerman: Why don't you try searching on youtube for the machine you are buying and then try searching for the scm prisma? Mmmmm. Interesting results, don't you agree?

[joinerman]

Whooaa - easy tiger!

I don't think you have been listening to my arguments - I say again I am not dealing with the UK!!
I have already held meetings with Masterwood UK technicians, your right no real spares to any significant value are held in the UK. I have written guarentees that if a part is required it will be with me the next day, most parts are available in the UK anyway. Whats the chances of SCM having your spares you might need on the shelf and why is that Johnny foreigner installs the more technical SCM machines?? At least I know the engineer that comes into my premises hasn't been cleaning out a edgebander gluepot that morning!!

Dont need 5 axis, do not do curved handrail, don't intend to when I can buy them in at a ver competative price. Buy the time you have managed to even draw the hand rail in CAD, I would have churned out a 3 days stairs.

My machine has 3 fixed routers , 1 frt horizontal, 1 rear horizontal and one vertical. Stairs ony use the vertical and all 3 will churn out my doors all day long - Windows only use the vertical and I can adjust the angle of the horizontal to use for angled window venting - not an aggregate in sight!!

Get real kid, you still have alot of learning to do - What does come over sounds as if you have had your fingers burnt, am I right??

Put your balls on the line man and buy a machine!

Go on off with you

[joinerman]

Yep your right, but they are virtually all from different agencies abroad, and sad people who have nothing better to do Nothing from the genuine manufactures them selves.
You wont see my machine on their because its so NEW.

Probably make a comparison with all the ford car adverts you see on TV (very common and basic) compared to those of Rolls Royce - mmmmm

Anyway theres much more entertaining items on YOUTUBE than watching dinosours

[thinkingcnc]

Ok, I'm easy now tiger.

Yes, you are right, I have had my fingers burnt but that is something completely different.

I do understand that you are dealing directly with MW spa and so was I. When I first told them I wasn't prepared to deal with MW Uk they immediately told me I could deal with MW Spa direct. MW spa's T&C were just as bad if not worse than MW UK's.

Since I tried dealing with MW spa they must have changed things. You talk of guarantees. The only guarantees I got were verbal ones and they were not prepared to put them in writing. I hope the guarantees you received were signed as well and I hope they were made by MW spa and not by another UK based shell/phenix company, otherwise they are worthless.

I told them that I would buy the machine as long as they put all what they had verbally told me into writing and they refused. Come on, I'm not being unreasonable by asking for things in writing.

You have even held meetings and made agreements with the technicians!! What, there was no way they were going to do this for me.

I think we have had two very different experiences with MW. They lost me through not backing up their words with something concrete.

I don't know how much more real you want me to be. I know I have a lot to learn but I'm no sucker.

Oh, I intend to buy a machine but the opportunity for MW spa to sell me a machine has passed. It will more than likely be a scm prisma, although I accept your argument about 3-4 axis and I accept MWs are good machines.

This is a message for MW spa, 'get some vidoes on youtube, it doesn't cost anything you know!'