[rezcar]

In waiting for my X3 to show up at Harbor Freight, I've been trying to decide on tooling...which seems even harder than choosing a machine! Thankfully, others have posted their want lists as guides for me.

Specifically, when a machine's specs say "face mill capacity 3 inches", is that the overall diameter of the face miller? (Is it the same for fly cutters as that is what I want).

Say the specs show endmill capacity at 1", but if you have a large ER collet, can you hold larger than 1" -not that I am planning to. I guess what I am wondering is, what determines these capacities?

Also, what size Indicol holder fits the X3? A model number or "grip/clamp size" would help. I have a DTI 0-15-0 (I think) but don't know what the dovetail size is (or where to measure).

Thanks!

[scudzuki]

The capacities suggest the maximum size tool that should be utilized given the power and rigidity of the machine. I have end mills much larger than 1" with 3/4" shanks that can easily be held in the spindle of any machine with an R8 taper... doesn't mean that that machine has the power and rigidity to swing said tooling. I suspect that an x3 would be less than satisfactory trying to make a pass with either a 1" end mill or a 3" face mill with any significant DOC (depth of cut) in anything harder than plastic. A 2" flycutter for "planing" and 1/2" end mills will likely be the limit of that machine's work envelope.

Joe

[escott76]

In waiting for my X3 to show up at Harbor Freight, I've been trying to decide on tooling...which seems even harder than choosing a machine! Thankfully, others have posted their want lists as guides for me.

Specifically, when a machine's specs say "face mill capacity 3 inches", is that the overall diameter of the face miller? (Is it the same for fly cutters as that is what I want).

Say the specs show endmill capacity at 1", but if you have a large ER collet, can you hold larger than 1" -not that I am planning to. I guess what I am wondering is, what determines these capacities?

Also, what size Indicol holder fits the X3? A model number or "grip/clamp size" would help. I have a DTI 0-15-0 (I think) but don't know what the dovetail size is (or where to measure).

Thanks!

The "specs" say a lot of things, much of which is designed to make perspective customers feel good about the "capabilities" of said mill. The realistic version is that you'll never actually use tools that large in a machine that size. Beyond the occasional face mill for small amounts of stock removal I think you'll find your use for larger tools is pretty much unnecessary using CNC.
Machines the size we are talking about here are limited by spindle horsepower, and overall machine rigidity. While you may be able to easily chuck a 1" end mill in the collet, you prolly don't have the horsepower or the rigidity to make use of it.

[rezcar]

Thanks guys, just as I thought it would be.

Anyone have any info on which Indicol holder fits this machine?

Also, for an R8 chuck endmill adapter. Are these the right ones? The wording seems different every site I go to.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT...MT4NO=58712678


Also came across this, Indexable endmills. Are these indexable tools any good? I believe HSS is better for these smallish machines, can't tell if this is HSS or not. The codes are still a foreign language to me!
http://www.cdcotools.com/item.php?itemid=433


In looking at LMS' site, there is a starter kit.
Starter Set, Manual, Tormach Quick Change
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...2441&category=
What is a...
Screw Adaptor?
Precision TTS-R8 collet? vs a regular R8 collet?
Do I need all this stuff?

They also have a basic R8 to ER-32 set. I don't know if I need all these sizes. But I've read somewhere that these ER collets can hold drill bits also, so having a wide range of sizes would be beneficial?

Collet & Chuck Set, R8, ER-32
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...888&category=2

[rezcar]

Back to the capacity question,

X3 specs are 2" capacity for fly/face cutters. What dimension of the tool does this refer to? Diameter or shank diameter?
At Enco for example,
Type: R-8
Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Shank Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Tool Bit Size: 3/8

[escott76]

Back to the capacity question,

X3 specs are 2" capacity for fly/face cutters. What dimension of the tool does this refer to? Diameter or shank diameter?
At Enco for example,
Type: R-8
Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Shank Diameter (Inch): 2-1/2
Tool Bit Size: 3/8

They are talking about the diameter when discussing face mill capacity, not the shank.
As a personal preference I like to use the ER32 over the R8 for actual holding of tools. The ER32 has a much greater holding range, which in my experience gets a greater grip on the tool causing less slippage. I like all of the ER series for tool holding.

[ihavenofish]

In looking at LMS' site, there is a starter kit.
Starter Set, Manual, Tormach Quick Change
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...2441&category=
What is a...
Screw Adaptor?
Precision TTS-R8 collet? vs a regular R8 collet?
Do I need all this stuff?

you need the tormach collet because it has a ground flat nose. in theory you could make your own, but its probably not worth it.

[Enraged]

build your own set, much better than the sets imho. all you need to start with is

the tool height setting block: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...gory=209730719
and the collet: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...gory=209730719

add chucks (with adapters), ER tool holders, end mill holders, etc depending on what you need: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...gory=209730719

I like the idea of having extras, so you can have things like center drills or edge finders that never get taken apart and are always ready to use.

[SSN Vet]

As much as I'd like ot set up with the Tormach system right out of the gate, this project is breaking the bank so fast for me that I simply decided to get a $35 R8 collet set from Enco.

I'll take the money I save and get the 2.5" R8 boring bar set from Grizzly and their cheap fly cutter set. As I figure that these tools will be used less frequently and I won't miss not having them set up for quick change.

That should get me by for some time.

[sansbury]

The Tormach system is really nice, and for a lot of people, the collet holders (which aren't cheap) aren't really essential. You can also make your own drill chuck holders and such on a lathe and save a few more $.

It really isn't necessary though until you get to programs which require tool changes and you want to use a tool length table. This is useful, but definitely not something you need to get into for a while if you're new to CNC. And you can do tool changes in a program without a TTS-type system, but it is a lot faster and less error-prone.

[rezcar]

They are talking about the diameter when discussing face mill capacity, not the shank.
As a personal preference I like to use the ER32 over the R8 for actual holding of tools. The ER32 has a much greater holding range, which in my experience gets a greater grip on the tool causing less slippage. I like all of the ER series for tool holding.

So I can hold fly cutters etc with the ER collets? I thought I was limited to endmills, drills, only.

[rezcar]

As much as I'd like ot set up with the Tormach system right out of the gate, this project is breaking the bank so fast for me that I simply decided to get a $35 R8 collet set from Enco.

I'll take the money I save and get the 2.5" R8 boring bar set from Grizzly and their cheap fly cutter set. As I figure that these tools will be used less frequently and I won't miss not having them set up for quick change.

That should get me by for some time.

I am leaning toward this route too, buying only certain shank sizes of tooling. I will switch to ER-XX later if the need arises. At which point I plan to only buy the ER collets I really need.

Or, does everyone think I'll need to move to ER-XX anyway, and might as well do it now rather than spending money on two sets of tooling families?

[rezcar]

you need the tormach collet because it has a ground flat nose. in theory you could make your own, but its probably not worth it.

Can you explain why I need the ground flat nose? As opposed to...I don't know, this is all new to me.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I am leaning toward this route too, buying only certain shank sizes of tooling. I will switch to ER-XX later if the need arises. At which point I plan to only buy the ER collets I really need.

Or, does everyone think I'll need to move to ER-XX anyway, and might as well do it now rather than spending money on two sets of tooling families?

You will find 99% of your straight-shank tooling ends up being 1/2" and 3/8" shank, unless you get into small endmills, in which case 1/8" and 3/16" shanks are common.

Regards,
Ray L.

[escott76]

So I can hold fly cutters etc with the ER collets? I thought I was limited to endmills, drills, only.

A collet for the most part is a collet. It will hold whatever you put in it. The ER series has several advantages over the R-8 style, namely it's range of collapse is far greater and it's positive release design.
At work I have several ER chucks in various sizes that go into the 30 taper machine (Hurco BMC). I use them for most end mill uses, although I will use them for spotting drills and occasionally taps. We have drill chucks on 30 taper holders and 30 taper shell mill arbors to hold face mills. This is a much different class of machine, and you're doing something different with tooling.
The greater collapse range of the ER series lets you hold a far wider range of tools accurately with less runout than if you just had a set of R-8's.
The Tormach style setup is nice, and it's the direction I'm headed (although smaller) for my mill. You use 1 R8 collet with it's nose ground flat (instead of domed like the stock ones) This lets the individual tool holders sit flush against the nose of the spindle, which is repeatable. You then have a series of holders for end mills, some possibly with ER chucks, drill chuck holders etc. The shank size that fits the single R8 collet and rests against the spindle nose serves the same function as the 30 taper in my earlier example. This system is most useful when you want to set your tool offsets once, and then switch between them without having to reset everything.
If you are just starting out though, just stick with R-8. Get a 1/2", 3/8" prolly a 1/4", 1/8" and a 3/4" should do fine for almost all of the simpler stuff. It will get you cutting, and save money for later when you will know better how you want to approach things.
R-8 is so common you'll also find good deals on used tooling with those kind of shanks. Face mills, drill chucks etc. Scope ebay, or used machinery places. By me they have auctions all the time where shops go out and they sell off everything. You can usually walk away with a table full of tooling for < $100.
Don't get too hung up on all the different options just yet. In time you'll learn what works best for you. Then you can drop the coin on the good stuff that will perform best for what you need.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Can you explain why I need the ground flat nose? As opposed to...I don't know, this is all new to me.

There are two differences between the Tormach collet and holders compared to standard, both different so that the tool will *always* extend precisely the same distance from the end of the spindle. First is the relief on the top side of the tool holder, that ensures the holder cannot make contact with the collet, but rather contacts *only* the flat surface on the bottom of the spindle. Second is the flat face on the collet, which is there for the same reason. When the drawbar is tightened, the toolholder is pulled up until the outer "ring" on the top face of the holder is firmly seated against the bottom face of the spindle, this ensuring the tool extension is precisely the same each time that tool is mounted.

Regards,
Ray L.

[hoss2006]

You can watch Tormach's animation that shows how their holders work with
the R8 collet.
They work great and are repeatable. I don't use anything else on my mill now.
Hoss

[BobWarfield]

What's the minimum tooling set for a mill?

1. Buy the nicest vise you can afford that fits your mill.

2. Some way to hold 1/2" and smaller endmills. An R8 collet set is fine. ER is nice, but you don't necessarily need it up front. In fact, it may even be counterproductive. If you want to use something like the Tormach system, you'll wind up needing different ER chucks than ones with R8 shanks. Also, will you want a power drawbar? Two paths to follow. Build one like Hoss and you just need the R8 collets. Build one from an impact wrench like mine, and it's set up for R8. I'm not sure I'd bother with an impact wrench on a smallish mill. One like Hoss made is a lot simpler and cheaper.

3. Some end mills. 1/2", 1/4", and perhaps 1/8" would be good starts. Are you cutting aluminum or steel? Aluminum wants 2 or 3 flute, steel wants 4 flute. Buy some decent quality US made cutters on sale. Don't bother buying an import set with a lot of sizes. Buy more than one of each--you will break or dull them!

4. Indicol is a good idea, I use mine a lot. You'll need an indicator for that. I can't speak to cheap indicators. Nice indicators are expensive. I use Interapid. Brown & Sharpe Besttest are also nice.

5. You need a set of parallels for the vise.

6. You will want an edgefinder pretty soon to help zero your mill (I am assuming in all of this you are going for CNC!). I like the electronic LED variety. Got my Fowler for $24 somewhere.

7. You may want a Z-axis presetter. See the bottom of this page for why:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMillTipsTechniques.htm

8. You'll want a drill chuck. I like keyless. Lathemaster sells them at reasonable prices and they are well made. Think carefully about the shank. If you're going to go for a tooling system (ala Tormach) or a powered drawbar (ala Hoss) you don't want the R8 shank. You want a staight shank.

9. Where there are drill chucks there must be drill bits. I like screw machine length as they are more rigid. I almost never use my regular length bits any more.

10. You'll need a spotting drill or two unless you have a lathe and want to "borrow" center drills. They're not the right thing, but they will do.

11. Digital calipers? 0-1" Mic? Not sure what other tooling you may have, but basic measuring tools are important.

That oughta do you for quite a while. I'm a tool packrat, so it was hard to drag a short list out of me. Maybe you don't think that was so short, but it feels really short to me!

Cheers,

BW

[sansbury]

I agree with everything Bob said, except I'd add a cheap fly cutter set for surfacing and finishing. When you're ready to move from beginner mistakes to more sophisticated mistakes, you can get an insert face mill or some such.

Also, if you are trying to pinch a few pennies, I think it's often ok to get a cheaper vise. A $50 3" screwless vise can do a lot of very decent work. You can get a $80 Asian milling vise or spend $500 for a Kurt the same size. The difference is in the last .0001-.001" of squareness and durability. In my case, most of my work can tolerate a lot more than .001" of error, and my vise is the last source of error I need to worry about. Just don't try to get away with a drill press vise.

[SSN Vet]

Great list Bob,

Thanks for posting it.

I've been eyeing this little electronic depth setting gizmo which is on sale for $48 at Enco (plus free shipping for orders over $100)

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INSRHI

That's cheaper than even the dial gizmo on Flee-Bay, which is listed Buy it now for $60 + $9 s+h.

Does anyone out there have experience with this electronic type depth setter?

Is Fowler good stuff?

Also, for your typical hobby type guy hoping to achieve +/- .005" some day, do you thing a .0005" incriment test indicator is sufficient? Or should pony up the extra cake for .0001" inciment (knowing that I'm already over the top on my whole project)

Being a Mech. Eng. by training, I'm a little fanatic about my measuring tools. I can't afford Browns and Sharp, Mitutoyo or Starrett, but I still try to get the right instrument whenever I can.

I just got one of the 5" China angle lock milling machine vices for $89. It's a far cry form a Kurt vise (we have a Kurt on our knee mill at work), but it's also a far cry above your typical drill press vise.

Also picked up a 12 x 18 grade A granite slab for $37!!!

Even though the Enco free shipping promo. says free "UPS" delivery and both the vise and the granite state "truck delivery", Enco shipped them both grattus!

What a windfall! as shipping usually pushes these kind of items over the top.