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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    498

    CNC Brain Startup Niggles.

    I've finally progressed from bench test to testing on the actual mill, but things are not going soo smoothly.

    The first problem I've got is the CNC Brain not being recognised. This is a new computer which been recycled from other duties. I installed the CNC Brain software and it powered up fine, entered and exited the program about 4 times but now it's not showing.

    The only option I get is "demo mode", it's not detecting the brain even though the brain internal lamp is on. Swapping USB ports doesn't change things. I'll give it a shot with a different computer (the one I was using for earlier tests) later and see how that goes.

    Once I get that sorted, I'll need some help with the setup parameters for each axis.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1865

    CNC startup

    Keep posting and I will keep watching.
    It looks like when it is fully up and running, it will be a good control option.
    Warning: DIY CNC may cause extreme hair loss due to you pulling your hair out.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25
    Does the unit work if you have only the USB port connected ie without any encoders or connections to M1 or M2?
    The PC will earth the 0V on M1.25 and M2.25 and you will have huge stability problems if you connect 0v from these anywhere to ground.

    You may get better responses from the CNC Brain forum at http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/default.aspx?tab=forum where there are some people, like myself, with real machines under development.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    Does the unit work if you have only the USB port connected ie without any encoders or connections to M1 or M2?
    The PC will earth the 0V on M1.25 and M2.25 and you will have huge stability problems if you connect 0v from these anywhere to ground.

    You may get better responses from the CNC Brain forum at http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/default.aspx?tab=forum where there are some people, like myself, with real machines under development.
    It doesn't communicate with the machine unplugged either.
    I have posted on the CNC Brain forums before, with two forums now it gets a little confusing as to which place will get the best response. I guess posting here is more likely to be found by others with the same questions or problems.

    I suspect the computer, I will hopefully try another one tonight.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Okay, I have re-created the problem.

    The second computer (the one I used for testing) worked fine first time I plugged it in.
    But then I accidentally kicked the power plug and the CNC brain lost power.

    When the CNC brain got power again, the laptop picks it up as a new USB device and trys to look for drivers for it.
    Once it starts the driver wizard (which I cancelled) it recognises it as a device without a driver and shows an error on an unknown usb device in the device manager.

    How do I fix that?
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    CNC Brain driver

    The drivers are located at...
    C:\Program Files\SafeguardRobotics\CNCBrain\Drivers
    You should be able to right click the unknown device in the device manager and select to update the driver. Alternatively you can right click and choose properties to get to the drive tab and install it from there. When it asks about the driver, browse to the above location and it should hopefully install correctly.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    The drivers are located at...
    C:Program FilesSafeguardRoboticsCNCBrainDrivers
    You should be able to right click the unknown device in the device manager and select to update the driver. Alternatively you can right click and choose properties to get to the drive tab and install it from there. When it asks about the driver, browse to the above location and it should hopefully install correctly.
    Unfortunately the device found won't accept those drivers.
    Those are the onese I used to install the brain originally and they worked fine until it lost and regained power. Now Xp thinks it's something different.

    It's almost like the brain needs reset. Is there a set time without power that will do that?
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    CNC Brain drivers

    As far as I know, you just unplug it for say 1 minute and that's all. I would be inclined to force XP to uninstall the device and see if it will work correctly from scratch.
    If you go to device manager and right click the unknown device, you can select 'uninstall' from there. Of course it's always possible that this isn't the device you think it is. I'll take a look at my system later and see how it's presented in the device manager.
    Anyway, once you have done this you can click Action in the device manager menu and select 'scan for hardware changes'. You can then point the wizard at the driver to see if that works now.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    498
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    As far as I know, you just unplug it for say 1 minute and that's all. I would be inclined to force XP to uninstall the device and see if it will work correctly from scratch.
    If you go to device manager and right click the unknown device, you can select 'uninstall' from there. Of course it's always possible that this isn't the device you think it is. I'll take a look at my system later and see how it's presented in the device manager.
    Anyway, once you have done this you can click Action in the device manager menu and select 'scan for hardware changes'. You can then point the wizard at the driver to see if that works now.
    I have done that many times, with no improvement. Once I've uninstaled the troublesome usb device driver (with show nonpresent and all that) I plug the CNC Brain back in and the cycle repeats.

    Finds a new USB device, asks for a driver location and won't accept the normal CNC Brain drivers.

    Where are the setup files located? I want to copy those out and reinstall the CNC Brain software to see if that helps. Then I can copy back in my setup files to avoid all that button clicking.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25
    I've just checked my XP machine and it has the CNC Brain installed under 'Unisversal Serial Bus Controllers' as 'CNC Brain'. The driver is accessed from there.

    I presume you mean the files that hold the Axis information for that machine. You will find those files at...
    Program Files\Safeguard Robotics\CNC Brain\Machines\SN[xxxxxxxx]
    There should be two folders 'Brain Control Panel' and 'CNC Brain' and I would copy everything there' I believe all of the information is stored as .xml files.

    When you say that you have recreated the problem, do you also mean that it now doesn't work on either computer?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    498
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    I've just checked my XP machine and it has the CNC Brain installed under 'Unisversal Serial Bus Controllers' as 'CNC Brain'. The driver is accessed from there.

    I presume you mean the files that hold the Axis information for that machine. You will find those files at...
    Program FilesSafeguard RoboticsCNC BrainMachinesSN[xxxxxxxx]
    There should be two folders 'Brain Control Panel' and 'CNC Brain' and I would copy everything there' I believe all of the information is stored as .xml files.
    Cheers.
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    When you say that you have recreated the problem, do you also mean that it now doesn't work on either computer?
    Yes, same behaviour on both.
    These computers are close to identical, one runs XP home, the other XP pro.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Here is the device ID for the "unknown USB device" which I cannot get any drivers to attach to:
    USB\VID_04B4&PID_8613\5&ABDE788&0&3

    Here is the device ID for the CNC Brain which shows up as a "non present device"
    USB\VID_04B4&PID_8613\5&ABDE788&0&3

    Do these make any sense to anyone?

    Uninstall and reinstall did not help.
    Now I have no "CNC BRAIN" installed under USB Controllers, just the USB device errors.
    Unplugging for a minute doesn't help, I'll leave it overnight.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    Device Instance

    You have reached the end of my knowledge on this I'm afraid. The Device Instance on mine is USB\VID_0FBB&PID_8014\6&18F52E03&0&3 which I guess is a unique system generated ID for that instance of the device. Presumably if you install another CNC Brain on the same computer, you get a different one.
    The Driver Version I'm using is 2.11.0.0

    Have you tried rolling back the driver? I've never found that to work on anything but there's always a first time!

    I have to go now but I'll check back later.
    Roger

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Quick update

    After uninstalling the phantom usb device, leaving the CNC Brain disconnected from power overnight it has recognised it and allowed me to install the right drivers.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Right, so I think the driver issue is okay for now. I'll see if it reappears.

    Next issue is hunting when jogging.
    This morning I could get the x axis to jog forwards and backwards a little. Now I can't.

    Even when the drives are powered down, the CNC brain when told to jog shows the position hunting. I'm running steppers open loop.
    Are there any settings in the control panel which could cause this?

    I also can't get the Y or Z axis to jog, unsure why as the same settings are in for each.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    Instability issues

    Can I point you to my thread in http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/default.aspx?tab=forum
    under "How to... -> Using the CNC Brain with milling M/Cs" section where you will find my thoughts on isolation, earth loops and their relation to instability.

    Initially, I would disconnect as much as possible in terms of I/O, encoders and axes you are not testing at that moment to reduce these problems. Swapping the drives round will prove if they are at fault or if there is a problem with the Brain. It's quite possible that one or more tracks are shorted on the Brain because the layout is very fine. I know of at least two boards that were faulty, one being mine. It would be good to test all of the axis outputs on the Brain.

    You can alter the pulse width on the Axis tab but I doubt if this is the cause. I had to shorten this to the minimum because of the 1 micron resolution and high speeds I'm using but I doubt if you will come across the same problem.
    Other than that, I don't think there's anything there that will affect it.

    Are you getting random e-stop messages? These are primarily caused by earthing and isolation issues. The real pain here is the USB connection which grounds the Brain 0V. It's disastrous to have any other connection to earth. This happens as soon as you connect an encoder of linear scale! I know you are running open loop but I inadvertently shorted a 0V on a limit switch to ground and the system was completely unstable. I'm currently using full opto-isolation for ever connection including the USB and the system is pretty solid other than the software issues.

    I hope that helps.
    Roger

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    498
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    Can I point you to my thread in http://www.safeguardrobotics.com/default.aspx?tab=forum
    under "How to... -> Using the CNC Brain with milling M/Cs" section where you will find my thoughts on isolation, earth loops and their relation to instability.

    Initially, I would disconnect as much as possible in terms of I/O, encoders and axes you are not testing at that moment to reduce these problems. Swapping the drives round will prove if they are at fault or if there is a problem with the Brain. It's quite possible that one or more tracks are shorted on the Brain because the layout is very fine. I know of at least two boards that were faulty, one being mine. It would be good to test all of the axis outputs on the Brain.

    You can alter the pulse width on the Axis tab but I doubt if this is the cause. I had to shorten this to the minimum because of the 1 micron resolution and high speeds I'm using but I doubt if you will come across the same problem.
    Other than that, I don't think there's anything there that will affect it.

    Are you getting random e-stop messages? These are primarily caused by earthing and isolation issues. The real pain here is the USB connection which grounds the Brain 0V. It's disastrous to have any other connection to earth. This happens as soon as you connect an encoder of linear scale! I know you are running open loop but I inadvertently shorted a 0V on a limit switch to ground and the system was completely unstable. I'm currently using full opto-isolation for ever connection including the USB and the system is pretty solid other than the software issues.

    I hope that helps.
    Roger
    Thanks for that, I will have a check through earthing later.
    But at the moment I have my CNC brain sharing a common earth with my gecko cards and their power supplies. Potential cause right there.

    Is there an off-the-shelf optoisolation device which I can use? I'll need about 8 channels I think.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    Opto-isolation

    I don't know what's available in New Zealand but I did see an 8 channel board which used ULN2803 drivers or similar driven from something like ILQ74 optos. I'll see if I can track that down.
    Here's another less elegant one http://www.industrologic.com/uob8desc.htm that uses rather a lot of chips.

    To be honest, I would just knock one up on a scrap of Veroboard, it's really easy to do. That way you get exactly what you want. The two chips I mentioned above would do the job nicely. I used the ILQ74 chip (which has 4 channels) driven straight from the Brain with a 330R resistor in series with the optos. If you need a hand with the detail just let me know what you want to drive and I'm sure you could do this yourself with a little help.

    Does your Gecko drive have a separate opto input for each function? I don't know these drives but believe that some have optos and some don't. I also think some have common connections for one side of the opto. The best arrangement is really one that just presents both ends of the opto diode to the user with a series resistor, that way you can connect it any way you like. If you could post a link to the Gecko manual that would help.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    498
    Quote Originally Posted by striplar View Post
    I don't know what's available in New Zealand but I did see an 8 channel board which used ULN2803 drivers or similar driven from something like ILQ74 optos. I'll see if I can track that down.
    Here's another less elegant one http://www.industrologic.com/uob8desc.htm that uses rather a lot of chips.

    To be honest, I would just knock one up on a scrap of Veroboard, it's really easy to do. That way you get exactly what you want. The two chips I mentioned above would do the job nicely. I used the ILQ74 chip (which has 4 channels) driven straight from the Brain with a 330R resistor in series with the optos. If you need a hand with the detail just let me know what you want to drive and I'm sure you could do this yourself with a little help.

    Does your Gecko drive have a separate opto input for each function? I don't know these drives but believe that some have optos and some don't. I also think some have common connections for one side of the opto. The best arrangement is really one that just presents both ends of the opto diode to the user with a series resistor, that way you can connect it any way you like. If you could post a link to the Gecko manual that would help.
    The problem for me right now is I tried to build a CNC mill so I could finish some other projects, now the mill has turned into it's own big project.

    That board is probably what I'm looking for (I really have no idea). If I can find someone to sell it and post it then I'll get one. Thanks.
    My X2 CNC Brain Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61345
    Gecko G250 wiring errors: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    25

    Another isolator

    You might want to look at this isolator board as an alternative.
    http://www.reprap.org/bin/view/Main/Opto_Isolator_1_0
    It's only a 4 channel board but you can always use 2 as they are quite small. The opto used on these is very fast and can drive reasonably high loads so would be ideal for things like step & direction.

    They actually give the circuit diagram for it on that page and you can buy a kit. If you did that, you could leave off the connectors and solder wires straight into the holes on the PCB if you prefer.

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