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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715

    SX3 with Mach 3 Spindle Control.

    Well, after I got done with a cutting op last night, I went for the stop buton on my X3 mill and the screen went blank and the machine started beeping continuously.

    This would be the second controller board that has went out in my mill and I have wanted to control it with Mach for some time. At this point, I do not care about the front controller panel anymore and I am now going to use the motor and find a controller that can be operated via my C11G board that will work with the motor that is in the mill.

    I considered getting a new servo motor and driver that would have higher rpm and more power, but I can't say I have ever had problems cutting with this one due to lack of power.

    Now starts my quest to make a SX3 Mach 3 controlled:

    Obviously, with the way the system is designed with the tapping functions, controller buttons, etc. I can not interface with the onboard power board for the motor. Many have tried and it always requires an interface board that no one has yet made to the public. Since that is the case, I am going to do away with all of that and just control the motor without the onboard electronics from the mill. Essentially, I am going to control it from outside the cabinet using Mach 3 only.


    To start this process, I have fuond the information about the motor and here is a photo with part numbers and info for reference. Next step, find an external Brushless drive that will work with this motor that has a 0-10v control circuit.

    Now, when it comes to servos, I know very little. Is there a way that I could put an encoder on this motor I have and be able to get an RPM reading, or is the best method to match mach with the voltage output of the c11g card and actual rpms.

    the encoder could be used at later times I suppose for other purposes, tapping Etc. Can the Brushless drives reverse a motor in a tapping operation like this if I had an encoder or something?


    Here is the SX3 motor photo.

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...s/2c319086.jpg

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    922
    i can't answer your questions, and im sure you have seen it but MRM rcmodels had a great write up on doing it to his x3, but he also fried his x3 controller so used a different one.

    If you can't find it ill link it for you.

    cheers

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    I think his was the standard X3 though. They have a completely different system of motor control.

    So far the only company that I know of that can do Mach3 spindle control is Syil with the added ectl control board that goes between the front panel and the speed board in the rear cabinet.

    Even then, it appears that the ectl board only "emulates" the button entries on the front panel to do the same task.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3655
    The three phase motor itself uses Hall Effect sensors, which give a constant position report to the controller. ONE of these can also update a tachometer.

    This research is much needed and long awaited. Good Luck and Godspeed!

    CR.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    Thanks Guys,

    I have resolved myself not to cower down and get the replacement from Grizzly. I have wanted to be able to control this mill from Mach for a long time.

    I have contacted Keling Inc and they say they do not have a drive that can do what I need. It appeared as though the Granite Devices drive will work with Brushless DC motors and has what I need. For some reason, Keling said it wouldn't. The only Details I have of the Granite are from thier website and this PDF, but I still think it may work. Any body have any idea why it wouldn't? It doesn't show outputs or anything in the PDF though.

    http://www.granitedevices.fi/assets/...ingStarted.pdf


    I even asked them if I was to use a different motor and drive combination, did they have a set. Interestingly, they still said no. On the website, they show a .75 kw AC servo motor with a drive that says it can run in velocity mode. As far as I know, that is what I am looking for (Without the $900 price though) http://www.kelinginc.net/ACServoMotor.html also, the motor in the mill is 1kw. I would like to stay that size or higher.


    I'm not against changing the motor out to a larger one. Price is not a concern as long as it fits the bill and works well with mach control. But if I get above $600 or so for just a drive, then I will just buckle down and get the Tormach or Mikini.

    Thanks for keeping this thread going. If we can pool our knowledge together, we will figure this out.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3655
    I have NO idea what these cost, but it looks like a plug in solution:

    http://www.baldor.com/support/litera...tNumber=FL1210

    http://www.baldor.com/support/litera...nNumber=MN1365

    At the very least, it seems to indicate that there MAY be a solution out there somewhere.

    CR.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3655
    Found a list price. OUCH! $515 - $626.

    http://www.baldor.com/pdf/501_Catalo...18_InvVect.pdf

    CR.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    That's a good find CR. Thanks.

    The 320v output is very interesting. Everything I have read said that this motor was a BLDC motor. However, there is no place online that I can find reference to this sx3 motor except here. Being 230v/6a motor though, I have to wonder if this is just simply a 3phase ac motor. (I would sure like it to be for the price of controlling it.)

    I found this drive on Ebay and according to the tech doc, it shows that the output will be 1.4 times the input. At 120v here at my place, it should run at 168v. that will not run the motor at even the full speed it did before. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:X:RTQ:US:1123


    Another Item I'm looking at is this, http://cgi.ebay.com/WATER-COOLE-MOTO...QQcmdZViewItem

    I thought if I were to mount this in place of the other motor and keep the belt system in place, I could run this and get higher rpms. I know that the 24k is unrealistic, but I could probably get 8krpm or so out of it. I have replaced the bearings in my spindle and they are good to 9k. I believe the spindle will work. This could be done much like the other high speed spindle setups, except with bigger vfd and motor than even the original.

    I know this wouldn't give me any chance at a tapping tool, but since I mostly mill aluminum, this would be much better than the rpms I get now. I think that is a fair trade off.

    Thoughts?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    Also

    Cavity that the existing motor fits in is 3.815 x same x 6.737. I know castings will be different but that is what I have for room.

  10. #10
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    Mar 2008
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    3655

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    I certainly agree.

    My problems is how in the world is seig building these systems the way they are so cheap. A comparable drive to run this motor, like you found runs $500 or more. I know that this is made in China, but finding a different motor, drive and running it from Mach 3 shouldn't be this hard.

    I'm not set on this particular motor. In fact, I also looked at a 2.2Kw Fanuc,( Which I know is to much power) that would work with a common drive.


    Maybe old-megawatts or Niel can chime in here and point us in the right direction. But as of this point, I am finding nothing in a pricerange that is even reasonable to drive this motor. Not even if I didn't want mach control.

    I really need to find more info about this motor and I can't test anything with my rig being down.

    If I find a AC drive, and an AC motor that are rated together, would I still be able to keep the low speed torque? That is the part that I am missing I guess.



    Sorry, lots to take in in a short time. :drowning:

  12. #12
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    Mar 2008
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    3655

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    3655
    OR: Maybe we could adapt one of those chips to the EXISTING discrete components in the SX3 controller card. Wiring schematic:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57823.#2

    CR.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    I wish I could. I just do not have the knowledge to put something like that together.

    No time like now to learn it though.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by cjdavis618 View Post
    I wish I could. I just do not have the knowledge to put something like that together.
    neither does crevice reamer, but once someone else figures it out he'll be sure to try and impress newbies with how HE did it.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3655
    Quote Originally Posted by chinli View Post
    neither does crevice reamer, but once someone else figures it out he'll be sure to try and impress newbies with how HE did it.
    Chinli: You have no reason to say such a thing. I don't try to impress ANYONE. Quite the reverse sometimes. Excuse me for trying to be helpful.

    I don't know what your problem is, but I don't much like what you are inferring. It's not nice to call people names.

    If you don't have anything constructive to add to a thread, Maybe you should wait to post until you do.

    CR.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    715
    I tend to agree. I appreciate the help from everyone.


    I did find a page that had more info on this motor that is in the SX3.

    I'll put it quotes to make it easier to read.

    About ZM Series brushless motor

    ZM Series brushless motor from the motor and drive body composition, motor body using high-performance rare earth permanent magnet material excitation, there is built-in motor position sensor to the location of the signal delivered to the drive, through electronic control circuit to the electronic exchange to replace the traditional mechanical reversing. It not only retains all the traditional advantages of DC motors at the same time to overcome the original structure brought about by the electrical discharge, electromagnetic interference, electromagnetic noise, are required to perform periodic maintenance, short life and many other defects. Is a new generation of energy efficient mechanical and electrical integration products. 它的主要特点如下: Its main features are as follows:

    1. High efficiency and energy saving: brushless motor is a mechanical-electrical integration products, has the characteristics of high-performance point of relief, at the same time in the ZM series brushless motor on the rotor neither iron nor copper power consumption, the efficiency of asynchronous machine with the capacity to improve 5% ~ 12%. System (motor plus drive) up to 85% efficiency over the general.

    2. Starting torque, and excellent torque characteristics.
    3. Speed range, speed ratios exceeding 15:1.
    4. Rotor moment of inertia of small, fast response, good controllability.
    5. Fixed-speed and high precision, load torque from 0 ~ 100% rated torque fluctuations, the fluctuations in the rate of speed less than 1%.
    6. A simple structure, high reliability and good stability.
    7. Motor low noise, ZM Series 2000W following noise less than 60dB.
    8. To contribute in the same conditions, and compared to other types of motor smaller and lighter weight.

    Brushless motor products ZM-W92-1000/220 technical parameters Rated Voltage 220V Rated Power 1000W
    Rated torque 2.6 N M rated current 6A
    Speed 200 ~ 3600rpm maximum torque of 5.2 N M
    Class F insulation rating IP54 protection rating

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3655
    It's surprising to me that this motor only has a torque rating of between 368 and 736 oz inch.

    If we are to speed control this motor, We either need somebody who knows HOW, or we have a lot to learn.

    We know it is a BLDC motor. (Brushless Direct Current) To understand how it works, we need to understand how a BRUSHED MOTOR WORKS. Basically, a motor is either just an electromagnet that turns, or a magnet with an electromagnet wrapped around it.

    Feeding DC Voltage into a bunch of coils will just attract iron or steel. It has to SPIN to be a motor. On Brushed DC motors, the spinning is caused by constantly reversing the polarity of the Voltage. This is done by a COMMUTATOR:

    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor5.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_(electric)

    The Brushless DC Motor does not HAVE a commutator. The electromagnetic coils (Stator) are wrapped around a magnet. (Rotor) With NO commutator, the coil polarity is reversed by electronics and a microprocessor chip.

    To be able to do this, the controller computer needs to know exactly where in its rotation the motor is. There are several sensorless methods to accomplish this, but OUR motor uses Hall Effect sensors to keep track of rotation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor

    http://hades.mech.northwestern.edu/w..._Effect_Sensor

    In a nutshell, this is what we need to make or modify:

    Because the controller must direct the rotor rotation, the controller needs some means of determining the rotor's orientation/position (relative to the stator coils.) Some designs use Hall effect sensors ....to directly measure the rotor's position. Like an AC motor, the voltage on the undriven coils is sinusoidal, but over an entire commutation the output appears trapezoidal because of the DC output of the controller.

    The controller contains 3 bi-directional drivers to drive high-current DC power, which are controlled by a logic circuit. ........more advanced controllers employ a microcontroller to manage acceleration, control speed and fine-tune efficiency.

    CR.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    137
    New here and would like to say hello. This will be a large under taking. There is a reason the drives are so expensive.

    Here are a couple of links to get reading on. Maybe someone there will be interested in helping you out.

    Good luck.

    Matt


    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...hreadid=181247

    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...highlight=bldc

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3655
    Those threads are germane, but dealing with small, low power bldc controllers. What WE need is a much higher powered 1000 watt, 230V controller. I believe our best chance will be to somehow integrate one of the controller chips (That come with test firmware) with our existing high power components.

    CR.

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