[Ira]

Hi, I'm new to machining, I've been reading a lot (all) of these posts, thanks. I purchased a Patriot machine in Febuary 09 because it looked like the best bang for the buck, good use of space, and I'm not looking to make super tight tolerance parts. I ordered the DRO and self installed CNC options. The DRO looks cool, but the CNC seemed underpowered, so I returned it. Now it's been like 6 weeks and still no refund check, also still no Patriot, but I think those are in JT's shop, and I should get one soon! Has anyone had business problems with shopmaster? I hope I'm just being a worry wort. I really want to get started setting up the replacement CNC system I bought, and start chipping away. Is it normal to pay for the machine upfront and take delivery whenever?

[sharpshooter90]

If you don't have the machine yet, how did you find the CNC underpowered? As far as delays go, its pretty much normal for any Chinese product, and seems to be more so in this economic climate. When I ordered my Patriot I was told 6 weeks for delivery, but it took 10.

[Ira]

About the CNC, I was expecting 640oz/in motors, but ended up getting a 400oz/in system, that's why I returned it. When I ordered the system there were only documented specs for a 640oz/in stepper system, so I assumed that's what I was buying. The 400in/oz system may have been adequate, but it was a low current system, and I wanted a little more headroom incase I needed faster federates or had problems with step skipping. I think coupled with the ball screw option, the 400in/oz system should be pretty slick, but I already have it in my head to use lead screws and tryout some custom lead nut designs, also I didn't want to spend an extra $800. (I'll probably switch to ball screws at some point, but I want to get a feel for things first.)


I guess it was my mistake for not getting written specifications on the CNC package, but JT was cool about it and offered me a refund. However, I've been getting a bit of a run around trying to collect my refund, and I'm trying to figure out if this is SOP for Shopmaster or if I'm getting jerked around.

[norvil1]

welcome to john taylor's world.

[Fast01]

I ordered my machine in October 2008 and took delivery in December 2008, so from what others have said and from my own experience, the delays seem to the the rule rather than the exception. As far as your refund....not sure. When I did get my machine it was (is) missing the compound. I called JT right away and was told one would be sent in the next shipment of machines.... which was delayed. The shipment arrived with no compound. I'm now waiting for the next delayed shipment to arrive and hoping the compound is there. So far it seems like the problem is being addressed and my calls and e-mails are always returned, so I'm not gonna cry foul just yet. Although, if I was waiting for six weeks for a check I'd be a bit pissed off.

[digitalmdj]

JT is back to his old tricks again. He is probably broke and not selling machines. You cant get new machines if you don't have the money to pay for them. He has been using your money to purchase the machines. As for the compound rest you need to just find one from somewhere else. The one JT will send you is to small for the machine. It is finally happening JT is going under. Like I said before JT does not stock replacement parts .

[fastlanecafe]

About the CNC, I was expecting 640oz/in motors, but ended up getting a 400oz/in system, that's why I returned it.

I got the flyer from Shoptask offering the Machine, DRO and 4 axis CNC for 3995.00. That sounded like a super deal, so I called JT and he explained that the CNC and DRO were customer installed units shipped direct from the factory only, so they were non refundable. However he said I could trade the CNC in on the bigger system later on as long as the I paid the UPS charges. Is that the package deal you ordered?

[digitalmdj]

Have you seen the new machines JT has on his site. The fancy handles are gone and the guards went back to the old style. It the same old company that made my machine. You pay for the good stuff and now it's back to selling junk. He did change the compound rest at the cost of everything else. When is this man going to get it. You cant advertise one thing and then sell another.

[Roadster]

I ordered my machine around April 1. Since then, I have stayed in communication with John Taylor. At one point, he said that the manufacturer was having trouble getting some parts from the suppliers because the smaller ones were going out of business. Just like in the US. That may be why the handles changed.

If you look at the new ad, he describes the castings as fine gray cast iron. That is a change from meehanite cast iron. When the new machines came in, he changed the photo to show the new straight handles. At least, these two changes show honesty instead of trying to fool somebody.

Fine gray castings are up to the stresses and pressures which this machine will produce. The straight handles, I'll get used too or build circular replacements. The main thing is that the ISO 9001 standards are still being met.

I spoke with Taylor on Monday. He informed me that my machine was in but the DRO had not arrived. He wanted to know if I wanted it shipped and let the manufacturer drop ship the DRO to me or wait. I spoke with him yesterday, the DRO's are being shipped, should arrive there by next Wednesday, my machine will ship next week.

I don't know about your refund. I have dealt with companies who say refunds take two to three months.

At least Taylor is in business and making efforts to deliver. Many US companies continued to take orders even though they were going out of business. Those consumers were stuck. Grizzly will take an order, bill you, and have no delivery date scheduled from their factory in China. This is the worst economic situation since the 1930's. In ways worse, because we are spoiled and want it now and perfect.

When your machine arrives, get an automotive stethoscope and listen to each area of the machine running without a load. If you smell or feel heat, shut it down. NOW. If you hear anything unusual, such as grinding, binding, or snapping, contact Taylor for his advice. Keep times, dates, and recommendations. Normally it's just a cleaning and adjustment issue. Handle one issue at the time. Repeat under load when fixed.

[Roadster]

Can't post anything on here without digital or norvil bad mouthing Taylor. Guess I'll just have to see what happens. He was willing to ship this past Monday, but I told him to wait until Wednesday and see what response that he received from the DRO supplier. He had a response from them, so I decided to wait and have Taylor install the DRO rather than have it shipped directly to me. If he doesn't get the DRO next week, I'll request shipment. Pretty simple.

There are more satisfied Shoptask customer than there are digitals and norvils.

Before I so happily retired 10 years ago at age 52, I dealt with many people. I actually enjoyed frustrating the butt holes more than any part of my job. Even more than I enjoyed dealing with the good people. Maybe Taylor and I are alike.

[Roadster]

The new photos on the shoptask site are the new machine Mo.

You and Ron need to get together and study the US and world situation. Knight muzzleloaders is going out of business after 24 years. Pontiac is out. Fiat owns Chrysler. The US government is taking over the UAW pension fund. Over nine percent of the nation is unemployed and losing their homes. Companies who had stopped production kept taking orders, filed bankruptcy, and completely screwed the customers. Container ships are sitting high in the water in ports all over the world. Riding high, empty, and still.

I don't know Taylor, but he is the innovator and designer who started the 3 in 1 machine for small businesses and hobbyists. He is still in business and shipping machines when others have failed.

Mo, let me know when you and Ron design a better machine and can stay afloat when the world around you is failing. I'll buy two.

I would have enjoyed dealing with you two during my work days. You would think Taylor is a rookie compared to me. I could frustrate you so bad that you would be in the nut ward with an IV drip. And I would do it intentionally. Most importantly, I would have enjoyed it. That is the only fun thing that I miss in retirement.

It isn't what you ask for, but how you ask for it that matters.

[norvil1]

The new photos on the shoptask site are the new machine Mo.

You and Ron need to get together and study the US and world situation. Knight muzzleloaders is going out of business after 24 years. Pontiac is out. Fiat owns Chrysler. The US government is taking over the UAW pension fund. Over nine percent of the nation is unemployed and losing their homes. Companies who had stopped production kept taking orders, filed bankruptcy, and completely screwed the customers. Container ships are sitting high in the water in ports all over the world. Riding high, empty, and still.

I don't know Taylor, but he is the innovator and designer who started the 3 in 1 machine for small businesses and hobbyists. He is still in business and shipping machines when others have failed.

Mo, let me know when you and Ron design a better machine and can stay afloat when the world around you is failing. I'll buy two.

I would have enjoyed dealing with you two during my work days. You would think Taylor is a rookie compared to me. I could frustrate you so bad that you would be in the nut ward with an IV drip. And I would do it intentionally. Most importantly, I would have enjoyed it. That is the only fun thing that I miss in retirement.

It isn't what you ask for, but how you ask for it that matters.

let me know how much you enjoy this machine once you get it and try to use it. the thing i have against jt is his misrepresentation of the quality and repetitive accuracy of his machine, it will not be as advertised. in my world that is called lying and fraud, and when you rip me off for 9,875 dollars i tend to get pissed. if you approve of this type of business then you and jt will have a very long and happy relationship. enjoy.

[Roadster]

You received a machine that you found unsatisfactory. You could have exercised your warranty and returned the machine for a refund less shipping. Just as you knew when you bought the machine. Period.

I will evaluate my machine when it arrives. If I'm satisfied, fine. If not, I'll pack it up, hook up the RV and head to Nevada from North Carolina to return it or have Taylor make the necessary adjustment.. I'll enjoy a long hunting trip. Quail, partridge, and pheasant hunting. Maybe a little turkey hunting. Perhaps some waterfowl hunting. That was my plan long before I ever placed my order.

If I keep the machine, Taylor and the machine may become a valued part of my life. If not, it and he will be placed along the road with the other unnecessary baggage which I don't wish to carry. Good or bad, it will just be another experience. Something to be remembered or something best forgotten.

[joeybagadonuts]

Roadster,

Who is "Mo", is he a Shoptask expert?

JoeyB

[jdclark]

You received a machine that you found unsatisfactory. You could have exercised your warranty and returned the machine for a refund less shipping. Just as you knew when you bought the machine. Period.

Roadster,
You have the correct perspestive on the whole issue. Before I ordered my machine, I spoke at length to JT about Digital and Norvil. As we all know, there are 2 sides to every story, and essentially both of these guys decided they would rather spend the rest of their lives complaining than spend a few hundred dollars in freight to return the machines. Digital screwed himself, because he planned to make his own Patriot out of the cheaper model, and foolishly stripped the machine down and discarded a lot of components instead of taking a few days to evaluate the machine first. Norvil complained that the ball screws had too much backlash and despite having anti-backlash nuts sent to him free of charge he claimed they made no difference. He then foolishly posted that he would give the machine away for free, and when someone took him up on the deal, he stripped the machine of the DRO, CNC and Ball screws, so he still has 80% of what he originally bought. The guy who got the machine for free is now happily making parts. These 2 guys must hold the all-time record for having posts deleted by the moderator because of their name calling and wasting of space to no good purpose. The irony is that because they are so over the top in their endless repetition of the same story, a lot of people figure they are just trolls for one of JT's competitors.

[Roadster]

Actually, norvil hasn't lost anything. He, like most of us will write off the machine as a business expense for a home based business. Assuming that he is in a combined Federal and state tax bracket of 35%, he saved $3400 on his income taxes. That is written off on the upper part of his income. He kept the DRO $900, Ball Screws $800, CNC $2500, and the other $2000 plus worth of tools that he bought from Taylor. He at worst is at a break even situation.

Digital did have a honestly bad situation with a leaking casting. He received a replacement that had been previously repaired. I can see why he was upset. However, he repaired the replacement himself, reassembled his machine and has done some really good work with it. He has posted some photos of his project on here. Good, informative work that we can all learn from.

A bad casting is the worst thing that you can get. During the contract phase, the manufacturer and distributor contract for a specific number of machines and spares based on expected failures. Non wear items, such as a gear box castings, are rarely included as a spare part or perhaps less than one per 200 machines. Failures of these items rarely occur, but when they do, it is a major hard feelings problem for all parties. Especially for the purchaser.

Norvil had expectations for a machine that were well within reason. Unfortunately, lathes and mills made in China tend to have poor quality control. Castings aren't adequately cleaned and the machines aren't properly adjusted. After I retired, I took an industrial arts and gun smithing program. The school received a couple of Jet lathes. They were very inaccurate. The two instructors tore them down, cleaned out the sand, lapped and adjusted them, and reassembled them. The Jets went from junk to jewels. Comparable to a South Bend or Turn Master. The two instructors had over 60 years of combined experience with machines. Most of us would be pressed to get it right.

Norvil and Digital did have an impact on the way Taylor did business. He contracted with an ISO 9001 certified manufacturer to improve quality control and upgraded the quality of the castings.

[digitalmdj]

You can clearly see he took a step backwards with his new machine. It is a totally different machine than he was offering at the first of the year. He removed the picture of the red patriot machine because he wants to sell a inferior machines to the public. No where on his site does he have a picture of the machine he was selling. But he continues to sell this new machine at the same price. Clearly his is doing this on purpose so no one will ask for the red one which he cant afford to offer anymore.

[joeybagadonuts]

Digitalmdj,

I prefer the blue and yellow myself.

It matches our decor better, I am sure you would agree.

JoeyB

[digitalmdj]

I see you would rather pay for color and not quality. If we all did that it would be a sorry world to live in. Since you are showing the new machine wouldn't it be fair to show the red one and give people a chance to voice their opinion. Instead of showing them just the one you want to sell.

[Roadster]

I prefer the looks of the new patriot much better than the red and blue myself. Except for the X and Y manual control handles, I like it better overall. I like the long single handle for the tail stock and X axis lock downs much better than the knobs. The colors are much more business like and less flashy. I am neutral on removal of the guard which was on the front of the old patriot. I didn't see it as necessary.

I'm looking forward to machine's arrival in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, there are three transmissions, five motors, and a radial arm saw occupying the space right now. And of course, other assorted collected treasures including many 1/3 full cans of solvents, oil, and paint. I have a good start though. I threw out a short piece of wire and a paper towel. I already miss them. And I know I'll regret their loss.