[Glacern]

www.glacern.com

Mass production turning of a part. Material is 1.0" diameter 12L14 bar stock. The original part was made of S7 tool steel, but required coolant. The machine is a Mori Seiki NL2500SY-700 CNC Turning Center with a Y-axis, C-axis on both spindles, live tooling, and a subspindle.

Better quality version available at: our website.

Also available on Youtube. :cheers:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwgobIVj4fU"]YouTube - Mass Production Turning - Mori Seiki CNC Lathe[/ame]

[Dualkit]

I fail to see what is so impressive, doesn't look all that fast for that material.

[Geof]

I sometimes wonder about the economics of that kind of single machine manufacturing. What is the cost of that machine, what is its per minute charge out rate? That part was not particularly complex and could be done in three operations; one lathe and two on a mill in pretty close to the same total time of around four minutes, with the correct fixturing. How was this part made before that dual spindle life tooling machine was available?

[DSL PWR]

Geof,

For simple parts the payoff isn't there. If you remember the parts I picked your brain on a little over a year ago (pump heads) you know they are a fairly simple part. I had my cousin do a run of them for me on his Mazak Integrex. I'm currently getting all of my fixtures built for my mill to finish off my lathe blanks. It's looking like the total machine time will be very close to the same, the difference being I will have 2 spindles running. The mill/lathe programs aren't quite the same (time wise) so I will probably run at 2/3 the time as the Integrex. The subspindle live tooled lathe would be a little faster than the Integrex due to faster tool changes.

So my take on this is most 2-4 op parts can be done faster (in quantity) on dedicated machines than on combo machines. The beauty of the turn mill machines is the setup time is way less than on a mill (fixture plates) because most of them hold 40+ tools. They are nicer than a lathe because you get away from most tool interference problems (at the expense of longer tool changes). I feel once you get into 5+ ops or a true turn/5axis part, a combo machine will come out on top.

Now the cost factor also comes in. I'm going from memory on the pricing here so don't flame me too badly. A live tooled subspindle lathe with y axis from Mori (8 and 6" chuck) was about 230 000usd, and the Doosan was about 160 000. The Hyundai was in between and DMG was up there with Mori. To get a tooled up mill turn machine you are looking at 400 000+. These prices are from about a year ago, and I bet they have dropped off a bit.

The things I don't like about the live tooled lathes are: tool interference, limited tool pockets, (which becomes a bigger problem with live tools and a sub), very limited y axis (most machines only have 3-4"), and limited power on the live tools. The mill turn machines get away from most of these short comings, but unless you are doing high dollar aerospace, or medical work (or some other high dollar niche) you are working to pay for the machine, and not making anything for yourself.

Now you could go out and buy 2 Haas SL-20s and a VF-2 with a 4th for less than the Mori live tooled subspindle lathe and have very close to 3 times the production, with more capabilities. For a little bit more than the cost of the Mori you could add a robot to the mix and really go to town.

I hope you can make some sense out of this long winded post.

[DSL PWR]

BTW that is a nice video, but do you have any videos of parts that actually need y-axis?

[Zumba]

I sometimes wonder about the economics of that kind of single machine manufacturing. What is the cost of that machine, what is its per minute charge out rate? That part was not particularly complex and could be done in three operations; one lathe and two on a mill in pretty close to the same total time of around four minutes, with the correct fixturing. How was this part made before that dual spindle life tooling machine was available?

If the tools hold up, a barfed subspindle/live tooled lathe can run unmanned for a long time, and the job could be setup with minimal investment, just the soft jaws.

I guess it boils down to paying for labor vs. paying for the machine.

[Geof]

If the tools hold up, a barfed subspindle/live tooled lathe can run unmanned for a long time, and the job could be setup with minimal investment, just the soft jaws.


Now you could go out and buy 2 Haas SL-20s and a VF-2 with a 4th for less than the Mori live tooled subspindle lathe and have very close to 3 times the production, with more capabilities.

I guess it boils down to paying for labor vs. paying for the machine.

I am not sure I agree with the first comment above about "minimal investment"; the machine the soft jaws bolt into is not cheap.

The other two quotes more or less describe my conclusions. You always have to pay at least some labor costs so that can be a wash. If you are guaranteed you will never have to run simple parts the fancy multi-spindle machine may be the one to have, but if you do a mix of parts you may be better off having two or three less complicated machines for the same initial cost.

[DSL PWR]

For short run parts in a job shop environment it is tough to beat a multi axis machine, even for simple, multi op parts.

[dertsap]

with doing multiple operations there more handling of the parts , more room for loading errors , more power consumption and more space taken up to accomplish the same thing , there is more fixturing , more setup time , more labor . with the right jobs on that machine it can be run lights out and even pushed to the extent that it can be monitored from home so someone can spend a few hrs over a weekend and be pumping bars and changing a few tools .
the one machine can be replaced with 3 haas machines but that is the case if you buy a mori mill as well , mori's are far greater quality and performance machines and will last an extremely long time which can justify the costs as long as the company has an assortment of other machines to cover other types of work
I think a twin spindle should be accompanied by a twin turret , that way one spindle doesn't sit idle
I worked with a nakamura twin turret twin spindle with live tooling and a bar stacker , with the few jobs that were designated for the machine it was paid off within the first year of the company owning it , its been over 10 yrs and that machine is still running strong , so with the right jobs and the right setup then it can easily be justified

[littlerob]

I just think if you are going to post a video in a thread titled "mass production turning" It should be an impressive video- not that. I push the 1971 Graziano harder than that.

[Dualkit]

I just think if you are going to post a video in a thread titled "mass production turning" It should be an impressive video- not that. I push the 1971 Graziano harder than that.

Glad to see I am not the only one not impressed.

[Trent Steel]

I just think if you are going to post a video in a thread titled "mass production turning" It should be an impressive video- not that. I push the 1971 Graziano harder than that.

I think the video does a good job demonstrating continuous production in a 3-axis, dual spindle lathe to guys like me who have only used 2-axis lathes. The turning feeds and speeds do seem conservative, but perhaps good enough for long periods of unattended cycles.

Nevermind the great camera angles and the video/music sync... all you guys seem to care about is taking the heaviest cuts possible.

Extenze anyone?

[Trent Steel]

Glad to see I am not the only one not impressed.

Why does that make you glad?

[Geof]

... all you guys seem to care about is taking the heaviest cuts possible....

But isn't that the name of the game? My machine is beefier than your machine, I can take a bigger cut than you can, Nah, Nah.

[Caprirs]

Nevermind the great camera angles and the video/music sync... all you guys seem to care about is taking the heaviest cuts possible.

Extenze anyone?

It is a very nicely done quality video. However, the title of this thread is "Mass Production...". Perhaps that needed clarification in the original post but that typically means trying to make as many parts per hour as practical and as economically as possible. The video did not demonstrate that. It is not about bragging or threatened manhood, it's about economics. Done properly, faster cutting means more money, which is the point of owning a machine shop.

The ability to run unmanned can be very attractive for the right jobs. Screw machine shops are specialists at such lights out unmanned applications. However, those parts in the video needed serious deburring from the drilled cross-holes so that part is not finished and requires more work, in other words more equipment and labor. That machine is not a single solution to producing that part shown.

There are also applications where the absence of coolant is preferred for plating or finishing reasons but that was not explicitly stated in this instance.

[Dualkit]

It is a very nicely done quality video. However, the title of this thread is "Mass Production...". Perhaps that needed clarification in the original post but that typically means trying to make as many parts per hour as practical and as economically as possible. The video did not demonstrate that. It is not about bragging or threatened manhood, it's about economics. Done properly, faster cutting means more money, which is the point of owning a machine shop.

The ability to run unmanned can be very attractive for the right jobs. Screw machine shops are specialists at such lights out unmanned applications. However, those parts in the video needed serious deburring from the drilled cross-holes so that part is not finished and requires more work, in other words more equipment and labor. That machine is not a single solution to producing that part shown.

There are also applications where the absence of coolant is preferred for plating or finishing reasons but that was not explicitly stated in this instance.

I could not have said it better myself. I am sure the machine in the video cost north of $200k. Nothing in that video demonstrates it can do anything
that would justify it's cost.

[tea hole]

although i agree the mori is not very impressive in general, and i personally believe that processed differently, the part could have very well saved time, even with that machine, i will also point out that the very first paragraph states that the part is actually made from tool steel. I can accept that the man just wanted to share a project so he got different material, did a great video and shared only to have people bash all that work. How terribly negative.

For the record, since it was a 1" part, i was more curious why it wasn't processed on a swiss lathe, which is right around the 200K mark for a machine that can do that part, and machine on both spindles at the same time. Not to mention with a bar feeder it would take a fraction of the space and be more accurate. But that's just me.

I will also say that if i was in the business to make parts as fast as possible and make as much money as possible, i sure as hell wouldn't buy a Haas. If you want to get somewhere economically, you buy a Ford Escort, if you want to do it quickly, you get a Mustang. No Haas is a Mustang.

[fizzissist]

For the record, since it was a 1" part, i was more curious why it wasn't processed on a swiss lathe, which is right around the 200K mark for a machine that can do that part, and machine on both spindles at the same time. Not to mention with a bar feeder it would take a fraction of the space and be more accurate. But that's just me.

I will also say that if i was in the business to make parts as fast as possible and make as much money as possible, i sure as hell wouldn't buy a Haas. If you want to get somewhere economically, you buy a Ford Escort, if you want to do it quickly, you get a Mustang. No Haas is a Mustang.

What if it's a family of parts? Some may be larger diameters, so you'd be stuck having to set it up on your swiss, then have another set up on your Mori, Hass, or Mazak for the larger sizes. Not very efficient if you're running small lots.

Personally, I don't see why you'd make a comparison between a Hass and a Mori. 2 different animals, and you can make a bundle with either. But since I own neither...maybe I shouldn't talk.

I liked the video, and enjoy seeing different approaches to manufacturing...right or wrong. Keeps you fresh.