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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8082

    CarveOne's Steel Channel Rebuild

    This is going to be a complete rebuild of my first CNC machine, the red oak Solsylva 25x37. Stiffness and extra mass is the goal. Once stripped of useful parts, the red oak frame will be set aside for the time being. It will not be junked.

    Some of the mechanical parts like the 5 start lead screws, anti-backlash nuts, bearings, and couplers will be re-used on the new version. The frame will be completely redesigned using 1.5" x 3" steel channel and 1/4" x 4" cold roll steel rails and Ahren's short bearing carriages.

    The 5 start lead screws, anti-backlash nuts, and rails were removed from my Work Table CNC machine rebuilds (and upgrades) and will not be additional expense. The eight bearing carriages and the steel channel material were purchased in the past month. Around mid-January I'll order a Gecko G540 to replace the 3 axis Xylotex since the rebuild will use a dual motor X axis. The Xylotex 425 oz-in motors are probably not the best match for the G540 and are likely to be replaced with new motors.

    So, over the past week I cut the channel to length (36" and 48") and mitered the ends at 45 degrees. Today I welded them together. That seemed to go well until the argon/co2 gas cylinder started running low on pressure. I barely finished and some of the welds inside the corners look ugly but will hold ok. 4" legs cut from 1.5" x 3" channel will be tacked in place tomorrow. Eventually, there will be leveling feet added to the bottom of the legs.

    Tomorrow I'll attach the X axis rails. The three 1/2" holes will have washers and flat head machine screws through them. There will be four additional flat head machine screws installed into counter sunk holes.

    As on my big machine, the rails will be vertically oriented and steel gantry supports will tie the upper and lower carriages together and also support the steel channel beam and rail. The beam will sit on top of the upper carriages. I'll build a new steel Z axis similar to the one on the big machine that can use the Hitachi M12VC router.

    The first issue I found is that when the carriages are installed on a rail with a piece of channel between the carriages as shown in the three photos the bolt heads slightly rub against the channel. This can be used to help center the rail on the channel. The bolt heads need to be trimmed on the lathe by about 0.050" for adequate clearance after the rails are bolted to the channels. It will not affect using a wrench on the bolt heads. I'll just remove the "crown" a little.

    I haven't decided on a paint yet. It will be either the textured silver, or a camo paint job.

    CarveOne
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails General Overkill - CNC Tank.JPG   DSCN0276.jpg   DSCN0277.jpg   DSCN0288.jpg  

    DSCN0289.jpg   DSCN0290.jpg   DSCN0291.jpg   DSCN0292.jpg  

    DSCN0293.jpg  
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    272

    Channel vs Sq Tube?

    CarveOne,

    I am so looking forward to following along with your trials and tribulations of your rebuild. I am sure we will all be entertained and educated during the rebuild process. However for us neophytes, :withstupi could you tell us why you chose channel over square tube steel.
    Good luck with the rebuild & thanks, in advance, for this sure to be riveting thread.

    Randy
    I may not be good....
    But I am S L O W!!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by DIYaholic View Post
    CarveOne,

    I am so looking forward to following along with your trials and tribulations of your rebuild. I am sure we will all be entertained and educated during the rebuild process. However for us neophytes, :withstupi could you tell us why you chose channel over square tube steel.
    Good luck with the rebuild & thanks, in advance, for this sure to be riveting thread.

    Randy
    Mostly because the local Fastenal store keeps them in stock and they don't keep the 1.5" x 3" box tubes in stock. They will order them for me if I ask, and the 6' channels cost less. That size box tube in 0.180 wall also has a fairly large radius on the edges with less of a flat surface for the rail to fit against. I used it on the big machine's final gantry beam with no problems though. I used a 5" wide rail with it, so there was no issue with the carriage bolts rubbing the tube as this one does.

    The channel certainly is not as resistant to twist as the box tube would be. The short lengths involved should be ok. The work table top it will sit on should prevent that from being an issue. The welded channel frame feels rock solid when lifting it by one corner. Once the spoil board is screwed to the underside of the frame with a few cross stiffeners it will become less of a flexing issue.

    Builders with no welding capability can assemble the frame by bolting it together with four pieces of right angle steel inside the corners.


    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3498
    OMG..Another adventure...Will closely follow YOU my friend..
    How straight are the channels..also if you are going to weld the frame, did you get any war-page?
    http://free3dscans.blogspot.com/ http://my-woodcarving.blogspot.com/
    http://my-diysolarwind.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    33
    My question is, why? You have a beautiful machine already, unless I'm missing something and your old gantry had a taller clearance than your lustful table (pictured above)...nom nom nom.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3498
    i think he want to cut non-ferrous metals with it...
    http://free3dscans.blogspot.com/ http://my-woodcarving.blogspot.com/
    http://my-diysolarwind.blogspot.com/

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    58
    Lookin good carveone, as for color I put my vote in for camo :cheers:

    archer3d

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by Khalid View Post
    OMG..Another adventure...Will closely follow YOU my friend..
    How straight are the channels..also if you are going to weld the frame, did you get any war-page?
    Hi Khalid,

    The channel is as straight as my ability to measure it with the straightest 48" aluminum rule I have. I will expect to install some thin shims between the X axis rails and the channel where it is necessary. I was able to weld it with no serious misalignment. I use clamps and check the alignment, then make short welds that do not heat the metal excessively. Heat control is the key to making assemblies that do not warp. If the joint is not aligned well enough, I cut it free and weld it again.

    This is what we call "old school" construction. Aluminum extrusions are the current popular method of construction, but I prefer steel for a number of reasons other than the lower cost.

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by The J View Post
    My question is, why? You have a beautiful machine already, unless I'm missing something and your old gantry had a taller clearance than your lustful table (pictured above)...nom nom nom.
    The 12' machine was designed to reach into a 6" thick block of mold material by 5" deep. This new small frame machine will handle 3" materials. This smaller machine should have better accuracy and less chatter tendencies than the big machine. #1 reason is that I just like to build things and just can't resist the need to make my first machine even better than it was.

    As "retro" as it may end up looking when compared to the 8020 builds, it should be a nice R/C foamy and guitar body making machine to use while the 10' commercial signs are being cut on the big machine for hours on end.

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by Khalid View Post
    i think he want to cut non-ferrous metals with it...
    Yes, definitely. Especially aluminum plate and bar stock, and also engraved brass sheet if it has enough accuracy.

    I want a lower gantry this time.

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  11. #11
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    Apr 2007
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    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by archer3d View Post
    Lookin good carveone, as for color I put my vote in for camo :cheers:

    archer3d
    Mossy Oak, Realtree, desert camo or digital camo?

    If I paint it with textured silver it will look like an all-aluminum build.

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    499
    Just wanted to say good luck on this rebuild. As someone who followed your original oak Solsylva, this will be very interesting.

    Since the old one was 24x37, how you going to use the old screws for a 36x48? Gonna stay with the belt for the dual X axis screws?

    Anyway, bon voyage!
    "72.6 per cent of all statistics are made up on the spot." - Steven Wright

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by revwarguy View Post
    Just wanted to say good luck on this rebuild. As someone who followed your original oak Solsylva, this will be very interesting.

    Since the old one was 24x37, how you going to use the old screws for a 36x48? Gonna stay with the belt for the dual X axis screws?

    Anyway, bon voyage!
    36" x 48" is the outside dimensions of the channel frame. The Solsylva red oak frame measures 35" x 48" outside dimension. The difference in the way the rails and carriages are laid out versus the original EMT tubing and bearings should work out to roughly the same 25" x 37" cutting area except that I cut the 5 start screws about an inch longer than they needed to be back when I swapped out the original 1 start ACME screws. I may or may not gain an inch of Y axis travel depending on how the mechanics work out. If the screws come up a little short I have some left over shaft adapters I made for the original lead screw version of the work table machine I can use to make the lead screws fit. I'm pretty sure that they will be not be needed. The steel bearing plates that are on the Solsylva now may work out ok. If not, I'll make new 3/8" aluminum bar stock bearing plates to support the lead screws.

    I'm not sure yet what the front to back distance of the Z assembly will be, but I am guessing that there won't be much change in X axis travel.

    The Solsylva 25 x 37 has dual X axis screws driven from one motor using a single belt. The new version will have a motor driving each lead screw directly and synchronized in Mach3.

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    499
    Sounds very nice. I must say your welding and grinding of those box corners looks really good.

    I have had some issues with my Solsylva, mostly getting the x screws aligned properly at first, but I can't say I ever had trouble with the x belt. You using two steppers to get more power, or did you have trouble with the belt itself on the oak version?

    Once I had a touch probe routine I downloaded for Mach go south and the probe kept going past the surface of the (aluminum) material. I was standing right there with my hand over the estop, but even before I could hit it, it really built up some force. Ruined the bit. What gave, though, was the Z belt - it snapped and went flying. Always since kind of thought that the belts were a type of safety valve. Even though I have spares for all three belts, that's the only one I've had to replace. I fixed the touch probe routine and its been ok since, but I still have my hand right over the estop any time I click the zero-Z button.

    In your drawing, do the screws go through the gantry sides?

    PS - You looked into Gerry Grzadzinski's (Ger21) new 2010 Mach3 screen set? Give your new table a new screen look as well!
    "72.6 per cent of all statistics are made up on the spot." - Steven Wright

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by revwarguy View Post
    Sounds very nice. I must say your welding and grinding of those box corners looks really good.

    I have had some issues with my Solsylva, mostly getting the x screws aligned properly at first, but I can't say I ever had trouble with the x belt. You using two steppers to get more power, or did you have trouble with the belt itself on the oak version?

    Once I had a touch probe routine I downloaded for Mach go south and the probe kept going past the surface of the (aluminum) material. I was standing right there with my hand over the estop, but even before I could hit it, it really built up some force. Ruined the bit. What gave, though, was the Z belt - it snapped and went flying. Always since kind of thought that the belts were a type of safety valve. Even though I have spares for all three belts, that's the only one I've had to replace. I fixed the touch probe routine and its been ok since, but I still have my hand right over the estop any time I click the zero-Z button.

    In your drawing, do the screws go through the gantry sides?

    PS - You looked into Gerry Grzadzinski's (Ger21) new 2010 Mach3 screen set? Give your new table a new screen look as well!
    Thanks,

    The welding and grinding turned out ok, but I have done better welds when the gas pressure had not dropped off. I took a better look at the flex and straightness this morning. After placing it on the best flat spot I have (the end of the CNC machine table), I lifted each corner carefully to see if there is any movement in the frame or if it readily lifts up the whole end of the frame at once. There is about 3/16" of movement from either corner. So, I retract my former statement that it was stiff. Then I used a 6' piece of 3/8" x 2" aluminum bar stock to check the frame for bow in the channel pieces. There is some inward bow in the 4' sides of about 3/32" at the mid span. The 3' ends are about 1/16" at mid span. Looks like there will be some shimming going on also. Some of the bow can be removed at each end with an angle grinder and 60 grit sanding wheel. The corners are where the high spots are.

    I had some belt alignment problems when I first built it, but I finally figured out that tweaking the bolts and proper belt tension would fix it. Haven't had any trouble with that since. The worst problem I had with it was binding in the bearing mounts and getting the lead nut alignment correct. When I changed the 1 start to 5 start screws I modified the steel plate bearing mounts from the worktable CNC build and removed the wood block bearing supports. There are just two bearings on each side now, not four. It was like night and day going from 30ipm jogs (70 on a good day) without stalling to 250ipm without stalling. I was never convinced that the dual bearing idea was a good way to stop whipping. Slowing the screw rpm is better.

    I could save a lot of expense by reinstalling the belt drive and use the same 425 oz-in motors, PSU (24vdc) and 3 axis Xylotex driver. The gantry is going to be considerably heavier though, and I figured that it won't hurt to have more torque by using two motors. If I use new (more efficient) 300+ oz-in motors and G540 with 48vdc PSU the machine will be about as good as could be expected with the 5 start screws. I'm also thinking about putting the motors on the "back end" of the machine where they will not be in the way when working with the machine.

    I downloaded Greolt's latest VB code he posted recently but have not installed it yet. The earlier version under compensated for the Z Zero plate and would stop just above the material by a business card thickness. I didn't spend much time trying to figure out how to make it zero more closely. I'm just eyeballing it for the time being. I'll get back to it after doing this rebuild.

    For the X axis, the anti-backlash nut will be mounted to the inside wall of the gantry support plate and centered vertically between the two carriages. The screws and bearing mounts will be positioned so that the screws are centered on the anti-backlash nuts. The screws will probably be a little closer to the frame than to the gantry support. The bearing plates will be bolted to the ends of the frame. The bearing plates will be large enough to also act as hard stops. Something similar will be done at the rear of the Z axis assembly. It has worked very well on the big machine Z axis.

    I knew that Gerry has done a new one, but haven't looked at it yet. When I install it I'll do it on both computers.

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    8082
    I cut the legs to 3" long instead of 4" as I showed in my drawing. There will be adjustment bolts installed at the bottom of the legs. The lower end of the channel will be capped off with a 1/4" steel plate that has a threaded hole in it for the bolts. The legs are not welded yet, but they have been ground square and have matched lengths. Need a gas cylinder refill before any new welding can be done. The legs will be inset by 1" so that the carriages can roll to the end of the rail and bump the bearing plates. Once the Router and Z assembly is installed the carriages on the router sode of the gantry will not roll that far before hitting the frame, so another type of hard stops will be needed for that end of travel.

    Both sides of the rails have been sprayed with the textured silver paint. Some kind of camo would be nice but it will take a trip to town for paint and extra work, so I used the paint I already have plenty of instead. Trying to make full use of a relatively warm sunny day for painting. It won't last long.

    CarveOne
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN0294.jpg   DSCN0295.jpg  
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    222

    Looks Like All Is Well

    Glad see your builld to replace smaller machine looks like should be quite ridged
    should do what you want it to do!
    I managed to get plaque for grand kids made for christmas and they loved them!
    I started chemo treatments few days ago so all is ok not feeling deathly
    eel from it!
    Going to be moving in with elder daugter and grand kids as they bought bigger house and she said i could have half of the gararge for my shop!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    8082
    Quote Originally Posted by R L Harris View Post
    Glad see your builld to replace smaller machine looks like should be quite ridged
    should do what you want it to do!
    I managed to get plaque for grand kids made for christmas and they loved them!
    I started chemo treatments few days ago so all is ok not feeling deathly
    eel from it!
    Going to be moving in with elder daugter and grand kids as they bought bigger house and she said i could have half of the gararge for my shop!
    Sounds like a good plan for you. Keep up the treatments and make more stuff for the grand kids to help keep yourself going through the recovery period. You may want to put a locking power switch on the router in case of inquisitive kids.

    I'm expecting that the machine will get more stiff once the whole assembly comes together and the spoil board is installed. It will sit on top of a work table as it did before. I can even bolt it to the work table top if needed.

    Happy New Year,
    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  19. #19
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    Apr 2007
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    8082
    I disassembled four carriages and turned the bolt heads down to flatten the 16 bolt heads for clearance to the channel. No amount of the flats were removed in the process.

    With the four carriages installed snugly on the rail (two at each end) there looks like about 0.50" clearance now (0.025" each side of the channel when centered between the carriages). Once the rail is bolted in place the carriages will be moved to the second rail and then repeat the drilling. The rails will have two carriages each when all this is completed.

    Next comes figuring out how to keep the rail centered on the channel while drilling the new holes through the rail and channel. That will be done tomorrow.

    Time to clean up and go party. Happy New Year!!

    CarveOne
    CarveOne
    http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    102
    Man, that looks nice! Now you make me want to start building a miniature CNC. Argghh, must....resist.....temptation....

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