[abfa9358]

Hi Everyone,
Has anyone got experience of Weiss milling machines . I'm thinking of buying a WMD30V http://www.weiss.com.cn/products/wmd30v.php. I think WARCO in the UK sell them as a VM18 machine. I was considering a WABECO F1210E but just can't justify the cost.
Any comments much appreciated.
Regards
Andy

[ihavenofish]

Hi Everyone,
Has anyone got experience of Weiss milling machines . I'm thinking of buying a WMD30V http://www.weiss.com.cn/products/wmd30v.php. I think WARCO in the UK sell them as a VM18 machine. I was considering a WABECO F1210E but just can't justify the cost.
Any comments much appreciated.
Regards
Andy

ive been researching them. i plan on getting a wmd25v in the near future. the seems to be the best quality small manual machiens for the price. i have not seen on in person yet though.

im actually currently designing a machine similar thats a cross between the wmd25 and wmd30, but specific for cnc.

[LongRat]

Hi Andy,
The Warco WM18 looks to be the same based on the link you posted. I'm planning to buy the Warco soon, seems superb value at £1250 with free shipping. I understand your feelings on the Wabeco, they are truly a cut above in terms of quality but I can't justify the extra cost either.
Out of interest, where can you buy the Weiss and how much is it selling for?

[abfa9358]

LongRat
Agreed 1250 seems very good value now that I've seen one in the "flesh"

I contacted these guys http://weiss-europe.nl/ got a quote for the WDM30LV machine 840mm table rather than 700mm delivered to UK with drip tray and stand for 1295 euros plus Dutch VAT (19%).

Out of interest what other machines did you consider? Are you going to CNC it? Having looked at the WM18 I think it would convert to ball screws fairly easily.
Regards
Andy

[LongRat]

Well my dream machine is the Wabeco 1410, but out of my price range. I have considered the X3 but I would rather go for more travel if possible. I don't want round-column and I would rather have an electronic speed control rather than fixed ratios. This leaves me with nothing so far that realistically competes with the Warco WM18. Warco also sell the slightly smaller version which is probably more of a direct X3 comparison.
I will definitely be converting it to CNC, I went over the machine quite closely at the recent Bristol ME Exhibition. I already have a converted X2 and will be using that to make the conversion parts. The layout of the WM18 should make the job a lot easier than it is for the X2. There is plenty of space for 16mm ballscrews and nuts under the table, and the vertical leadscrew for the z axis is very convenient for a direct ballscrew replacement and motor connection. Plus, you also have the quill available for manual drilling which is a nice addition.

[menthol]

I've got an WMD30v that I bought from Amadeal in London, and I'm very impressed with it. I stripped it down to cleam and relube it when I got it and took some photos, I can post if you want.
The screws fitted are 16mm for the x and y axis and 20mm for the z.

There's a review in model engineers workshop vol 153 on the warco wm18 which is the same beast, vol 145 has a review of the wmd25.

Oh, nearly forgot RDG do the same mill with powerfeed or DRO as well, and I believe spg on eblag sell the same mill.

mark

[LongRat]

That's good info Menthol, thanks! I'd certainly like to see your photos.

[menthol]

Ok lets hope this works.

First photo the X and Y nuts.


X nut is 45mm x 50mm x 30mm Mounted with 2 off M8 screws. The nut is slotted to take up backlash with 2 M4 (I think) cap head screws.
Y Nut is 60mm x 40mm x 30mm, again mounted with 2 off M8 screws and the same backlash adjustment. I don't believe the cut outs above the mounting screws actually serve any purpose as I can't remember anything that would need clearance.

Z Nut


The z nut is a 2 piece design. The main nut part was a 40mm square, 57mm long threaded 20mm. It has a mounting "arm" 20mm dia 30mm long that sits inside the mounting block. The mounting block, again 40mm square, I haven't noted the length down (sorry), bolts to the z slide(M8 screws again) and the mounting arm sits in the 20mm bored hole. Back lash is taken up using M4 grub screws in the z slide that tilt the mounting block. You can only get at these grubscrews by taking the head off.

Z Slide

This shows the back of the z slide, showing where the mounting block for the z nut screws on, and where the grub screws are fitted. Below this is where the air spring bolts on.

Base


The under side of the base, a very heavy duty casting, showing where the bottom of the air spring bolts on.

Z screw bearing and mount.
[

just a photo showing the z screw bearing, the plate it sits in is about 15mm thick. The bevel gear is for the z handle, I can't get rid of the backlash here. Plenty of scope here for directly mounting a stepper motor and getting rid of that gear.

Column and base



The column is an enclosed box section with just a cut out for the z slide / nut. I reckon its about 10mm wall thickness (sorry forgot to measure it) The combined column and base assembly can just about be lifted by two men, I couldn't walk staight the next day though. All the other sub assemblies are manageable by one man.

Hope this gives you some info

mark

[abfa9358]

LongRat,
Fully agree with your comments re. Wabeco. I wonder if the strange looks I got from the Warco rep. at the Thornbury exhibition were due to me being the second person peering into the inner workings of his WM18 to see if it could be CNC'd.
We seem to have gone the same route in terms of our machines. I have an X2 from Chester Tools UK which I CNC'd with home brew drivers and timing belts controlled by EMC. Then up graded to ball screws (fiddly job to get the X nut in) and Motion Control Products drivers. My plan (young family permitting) is to buy a WM18 / WDM30 and use the X2 to CNC it then sell the X2 and my pillar drill to recover some shed space.

Menthol many thanks for posting - a picture tells a thousand words!! Have you accessed the squareness of the mill yet? Does it compare with the spec sheet? MEW gave the machine a good write up but I wonder if the machine was "tweeked" prior to being reviewed.

Andy

[LongRat]

Andy,
quite strange that both of us were at the Thornbury show and our CNC conversion routes are identical! Here is my Chester X2:



I'm very happy with this machine and it has done a ton of work since I converted it in 2005. I used Gecko G201s and a CNC4PC breakout board. I over-specced the CNC side knowing I'd want to retrofit a bigger mill later, so I used 450 oz.in NEMA34 motors running at 6 amps all round, on a 39VDC power supply. I'll be buying a Gecko G540 and some NEMA23 motors for the X2 so I can sell it as a turnkey package when I have finished the big machine.

I must say, going on the info Menthol just posted, I'm less sure about the Warco WM18 now. It looks like almost identical machines are available from SPG and elsewhere, check this: http://www.spgtools.com/view_tool.php?pid=7

I'd need to see this machine to really verify the similarity to the Warco, but for the price difference I'd be willing to drive to Leicester to do that if needed. After all, the way I look at it is that if you are doing a CNC conversion you are pretty much just buying the cast iron. I don't care about the leadscrews, bearings, amount of play in the nuts etc. SPG were at Thornbury too, they had a tent outside but this machine wasn't on the stand. I hadn't heard of them before either. It's interesting to see that it is still hugely cheaper to convert a machine yourself than to buy a machine already done.

[menthol]

Andy as far as I can tell with my cheap Axminster dial indicator and home made arm the column seems pretty square, as good as the inspection report. Tramming the head after taking it off was a bit of a pain. I didn't split the column and base hoping not to have to try shimming afterwards.

Longrat, I think I've given you duff info there, it's totalmtt selling the WMD30, item number 260418397865. The spg one is a lot lighter and I think the column is not much wider than your x2.

[LongRat]

Ah yes I see now. That makes more sense - the price difference was too big for them to be the same machine I guess.
The machine on Ebay from totalmtt is only slightly cheaper than the Warco... works out about £100 less including shipping. Much harder call in that case. The temptation is to stick with the established retailer.

[menthol]

Longrat
since I bought my mill the prices seem to have got a lot closer, warco's have stayed the same and everyone else's have crept up. The other thing I have noticed is warco tend to have special offers every now and again where they through in a freebie. I'd probably buy of warco myself now.

[abfa9358]

Hmmm, it looks like Warco or RDG Tools as a supplier. Probably Warco as they seem to get good write ups for customer service. The DRO option on the RDG machine looks attractive though.... Good to know that the machine is at least as straight as the inspection report.

I saw SPG in the tent up at Thornbury, looks like they've converted an X3 to CNC - very expensive compared to a DIY job with fleebay ball screws and EMC. The machine finish (not the CNC conversion) looked poor compared to the WM18.

I'm going to the Midlands show in October to have a look at the Wabeco 1210 in the flesh and to show my 3 year old that there things other than Fireman Sam and Pingu in this world.

I've added some pictures of my X2 - how did you get the pictures in the text?
Theres a general shot of the machine - bit grubby as I'm in the middle of making some steel blocks for the lathe face plate
I've added a belt drive conversion from The Little Machine Shop
Another shot shows the Z axis ball screw conversion (X and Y are Nook 16mm ball screws)
I built my own DRO based on a pic ucontroller and some cheap Chinese scales. Finally, theres a shot inside my home brew drive box 16A @ 42V. I used Motion Control Products MSD542 drives, driving some vast steppers - planning for a bigger machine. I run the drives at 2A which way under drives the motors but everything stays cool and when I crash the tool in to things the motors stall rather then bending something. I made my own BOB and control everything with EMC2 running under LINUX.
Regards
Andy

[LongRat]

Your PIC DROs are especially cool, just getting into PIC myself. But MAN are those steppers big! I bet they weigh almost as much as the mill!
I agree about the finish of the X-series Sieg mills in general, they just don't look quite as nice as the series we are talking about... which I would like to know who actually makes as well. I'm sure there must be lots of people talking about them on here, are they perhaps RF clones (certainly smaller than the RF45 that seems very popular).
Not sure why but there seem to be a lot of ready-CNC X3 mills coming on to the market now when actually they don't seem to represent great value for money. If someone came out with one of these WM18-style mills ready to run for a couple of hundred more than a CNC X3 it would be a much more interesting proposition - although of course still super-expensive compared with a home made conversion.

I emailed SPG tools about their WM18 equivalent. They dont have it on their site but apparently do stock a machine they call SPG 9520 which is the equivalent machine. Hoping to get some more info from them soon, like price and specs. Unless it is quite a lot better or cheaper than the Warco I will be buying the WM18 though.

[abfa9358]

Yes, the steppers are a bit big with too much inductance really but they work okay, I only ever run at 20ipm max. As far as I can tell all the WM18 type machines come from http://www.weiss.com.cn/. I totally agree, having looked around, that a CNC'd WM18 would be a very attractive machine compared to an X3 mill.
DRO was built quite a few years ago now and as long as the scales are clean seems to work well. Its very basic compared to a Shumatech 350 but is invaluable when setting up a job or checking the CNC system.

[chalky]

I wrote the review of the wmd25lv for MEW. I bought it from amadeal, sight unseen, so it wasn't specially tweaked. It was being so pleased with the machine that prompted me to write the review. I subsequently bought a Weiss 8x16 lathe ( wmd210vg ) from the same supplier and its just as good as the milling machine in terms of overall quality. Amadeal sell the wmd30lv ( aka WM18 etc ) for a good bit less than the other suppliers but I see he's out of stock at the moment.

[P Riedie]

Not sure why but there seem to be a lot of ready-CNC X3 mills coming on to the market now when actually they don't seem to represent great value for money. If someone came out with one of these WM18-style mills ready to run for a couple of hundred more than a CNC X3 it would be a much more interesting proposition - although of course still super-expensive compared with a home made conversion.

I have noticed that many people have converted an X3 to CNC and there are a few kits out there.

None of the people who have converted one sell a kit. I wonder if that tells you something when they have probably worked out the costing, added support in and decided it's not worth it.

Have you also wondered why Denfords and Boxford won't sell a CNC to the public, only education ?

Warco had a WM16 as a turnkey CNC, sold 5 and dropped it, all this has to tell you something.

I have a Triac converted to Mach3, it's been a long uphill struggle and it's finally running but only at half the speeds I was expecting due to the age of the motors. I had a lot of help off John Stevenson who was responsible for the KX1 and KX3 machine development as I have known him for years but felt guilty over taking a lot of his time up knowing he does this for a living and answering dumb questions doesn't pay bills.

P Riedie.

[abfa9358]

I guess CNC benchmills are a very expensive product in a small market place, as a business its probably not worth the effort. Some of the problem is related to generating something worthwhile cutting i.e. CADCAM is not cheap and manual Gcode creating becomes labourious very quickly. Basically, what we do is a bit of a niche.

Longrat's point is still good though, a CNC WM18 would be a very useful machine indeed. From a home conversion point of view, if you can CNC an X2 as your first project then the WM18, WDM30V or what every flavour of Weiss machine floats your boat (down to colour mostly!) shouldn't be a problem given that you can use the X2 to make most of the bits required.

Converting your own machine can be an uphill struggle, I had a few set backs but isn't that part of the fun of learning something new in a number of different fields - electronics, mechanical, software etc.

I'm trying to compile some prices at the moment, waiting for a quote from Amadeal - quote from Weiss (Holland) still looks attractive depending on the exchange rate.

[LongRat]

Andy, when you get those quotes in please post them if you don't mind. I got some info from SPG tools today on their equivalent machine but it was in the form of an un-readable attachment - hopefully something more useful will turn up tomorrow.
I don't think there is a problem with CNC bench mills as products. I think the main problem is the customers in the marketplace. Every time I go to a model show it is like CNC is not penetrating like I hoped 5 years ago. I did a talk on CNC conversion at a local model club and nobody was interested in the machine - but several wanted me to make parts for them. CNC is still seen as a threatening outsider to most people in hobby engineering and will remain so until the older generation pass on I believe. At least, that's my take on how it is in the UK. Maybe that attitude is one reason why we are no longer a manufacturing superpower...