584,866 active members*
5,026 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Benchtop Machines > Steel Capable Benchtop Mills
Page 2 of 3 123
Results 21 to 40 of 60
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    228
    The RF45 if it is the same dimensions I am thinking of (G0519) is NOWHERE near the same size as an x3. The x3 can easily fit in on a workbench without needing to have a metal bench or rebuild it for the added weight. But mostly its only 35" tall, 30" deep and table only needs around 45" for travel. The RF45 is 55" tall, 35" deep and the table requires like 65" of space. Theirs no way thats in the same category as the x3.

    The main concern is if I decided on the RF45 (can someone pass along the required working space required by the machine?) I will need to rent a truck to go get it. The x3 two guys can move into my SUV.

    I do wish they made a manual Tormach machine but I think their would be alot of issues involved with it like if you have ballscrews on a manual machine you must lock every axis before making any moves and I think 25% of the machines cost is in the fact that its a neat and complete package that works very well out of the crate.

    I would love to find a knee mill and rebuild it, I have no idea where people find these old bridgeports as craigslist up here sucks. But their has always been more small machine shops in america than up here I guess.

    That reminds me of this "Diminutive Benchtop Knee Mill" from the '40's that I really like the idea of. Its apparently ~350lbs and looks like a knee with standard sized table (7x18 I would guess) but with a very rigidly attached spindle with no quill. I have been trying to get my spindles and drill press more accurate and I think the largest accuracy loss (besides backlash and table movement of course) is in the quill, I personally would lock it and only ever use it if I was holding a tap handle or something. But makes for a great solid machine I think with bearings top and bottom and a belt cone in the middle for speed changes, allows you to easily upgrade spindle motors without any effort.

    Anybody know who makes this little guy? Do you think it was a good idea? I want some better pictures!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2580

    I dunno where those figures came from.....

    but let's assume they are correct ,look at the specs there. You are basically only talking about an additional 20" of space side to side, just a little deeper, and who the hell cares how tall it is unless you have some seriously low ceilings in your shop. With that slightly larger envelope( I never said it was the same size nor category) you get a significantly stiffer machine, larger travels, and just plain more mill for not a lot more cash... think about it.

    Of course I am aware that a manual machine with ballscrews is practically useless. I just meant that a machine LIKE the tormach only manual with acme screws but with the same belt drive and rigid quilless head would be a tinkerers dream. The same size as the Tormach or RF45 but with the belt drive, and with the same machining envelope and weight of the tormach for a good price. Sorry if I was not clear...

    I am not saying that the X3 is not a great little mill just that it is not that much of a reach to say that the footprint of each machine on a stand or table or whatever will hold them safely will take up in essence the same general area. My knee mill weighs a bunch more than the Lathemaster and uses a considerable amount of space more and the truth is if I had space constraints I would still buy the Lathemaster instead, in fact that is what I did and only got the knee mill later on and only because I got a smokin' deal on it and always wanted to have one....

    I am sorry if you disagree with me and I was just offering another option. You will be happy with the X3 as it seems most that have them are. Good luck with whatever you buy and peace....

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    228
    Sorry if I sounded confrontational I didn't intend it. The RF45 sounds like is only needs 20" more in the horizontal but in reality as my garage door lowers the roof one foot I would actually need to mount the mill on a one foot high platform or just put it on the floor and if I do that the 20 extra inces will cause it to run into my lathes bench. I have more room than I need for an x3 as I can put it higher than the lathe and run the axis over its bed ways as its not very tall at all.

    I do wish I could have the RF45 though its a hell of a lot more machine for only like $600 more but truthfully if I can get an x3 with a stiffer column it would be nice. If anyone reading has a RF45 can they post the required space needed for it?? This way I can make a cardboard box mockup and see if I might be able to do it.

    I forgot the Tormachs where quill-less I don't know how I could have but I did... I defiantly agree with you though that a Tormach sized manual mill with that sized column and mill head would become a fast favorite but I was pointing out that Tormachss selling point is your buying a complete system with support so I doubt they will ever sell a manual one. It would be interesting to see someone with a forge turn out a new head for the x2/x3/RF45 machines that would let you press in your old spindle and mount a belt drive. If someone came up with it im sure LMS would sell it as they carry the x3 column castings nowdays.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    228
    I just went through Syil's website and I find it ironic that I lived in Calgary literally 10 blocks up the street and never knew it existed untill I moved to Vancouver lol

    They sell an x4 (out of my price range for their kit) that is slightly larger than the x3 but its hard to tell if the column is any better.

    I was just thinking of ways to strengthen the x3's column and thought why not get a large piece of steel ground flat and weld or bolt it across the back of the column and to the base as well as put a thick steel plate on the base of the machine to bolt the x3 and the column to. Might sound a bit overkill but could be done for probably $300

    Does anybody else carry an x4 sized machine?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2580

    2.....

    I went outside after work today and measured the machine sitting there on the stand. My lathemaster including the mounts I made and the rather large motors on the tables measures about 44 inches wide. The base including the Y axis motor agian large motor is about 36" deep. I did not bother to measure the height but with my new belt drive and the motor on top with the millhead all the way up the column it can get pretty darn tall. I am getting nearly 24 inches of X travel so you can do the math there. Again it is definitely a larger machine than the X3 but what I am saying is unless you are REALLY cramped( and from the sounds of your post you might be) the RF45 machine does not really take up all that much more space than the X3 does for all intents and purposes. Both machines need so much space on a table or sturdy bench, the RF slightly more. Perhaps what I am saying is that if you are gonna ante up for the X3 and have any reasonable amount of additional room the Lathemaster machine is quite a bit more capable and rigid for not a lot more money. SO it is a value thing. That and I have bought smaller machines and have always regretted it. It was not until I got this machine that I felt like I had a real milling machine. It cuts steel and about anything else with relative ease and I could not imagine getting a smaller machine now. I am always trying to find ways to make it get MORE travel from the machines so whenever I see someone looking to buy a mill to actually cut metal with I feel compelled to say that you definitely get what you pay for and size unfortunately does matter here. For the price of these machines you definitely get a lot for your money. The X3 would definitely be the next logical choice for it's size and price point. The reality is that you can cut small parts on a larger machine but you cannot really cut large parts on a smaller machine. Good luck with whatever you buy and either way these are some good machined IMHO...peace

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2502
    2 Many Hobbies:

    You're optimizing too much around the logistics instead of the machine. I know the feeling, I was there too when I started out. But logistics only need to be worked around once, and then you have the machine. Getting a machine that isn't good enough has to be lived with for a long time, and will ultimately result in more logistics for the next machine. You've seen this already having upgraded a couple machines apparently without getting much value from them.

    Instead of stairstepping along the way to "barely good enough", focus on figuring out how to get "exactly what you need now and for a good way into the future."

    Pete has got it right. An RF-45 doesn't really take that much more room than the little Siegs. So what if it sits 1 foot up off the floor if that's all your garage space will take? When I first got my IH mill, I had to fit it through a doorway that was only 2/3's as tall as a normal door (not a garage door, a normal door) and into a room with a low ceiling. I measured it out, sacrificed a little bit of Z travel at the top (I still have a lot more Z travel than a Sieg) and put it on a low table I welded together. In those days it was manual, and I had to sit on a stool to crank the handles as they were too low when I stood up. Worked great!

    There should be plenty of room in a single car garage for a nice lathe, an RF-45 mill, tool boxes and workbenches.

    Cheers,

    BW

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    969
    Quote Originally Posted by 2_many_hobbies View Post
    Hey, this is the fastest ive had a thread get responses ever.

    Machine Tools Warehouse looks like a decent place and excellent prices for us up here but im in Vancouver and it would cost an insane amount to ship it 1500km to the other coast.

    Thanks for pointing out the Weiss wmd30v thats exactly the machine specs I was looking for. Im ok with the travel of the x3 table but that wmd30v has a substantially better looking column and nicer finish. Not to mention 1.5HP motor! Only question is where do you buy them from?? I only know of the standard machine stores like HF, Grizzly, MicroMark, Homier, Busy Bee and thats about it.

    tikka308: Im very surprised by your Taigs results, I was considering one for a while but decided against it. Defiantly shows what you can achieve when you do the calculations and use to right speeds/feeds.

    My mention of using an encoder on the stepper was by no means a way of 'going faster' the only reason I would want to use them is having feedback on the load of the axis as well as the spindle so together even if you have your calculated speeds and your cutter gets dull instead of just plowing through the project the systems will adjust the feed rates to take load off of the tool and if necessary feed hold and let you know if you choose to continue you will forsake surface finish. Speed is not my goal as this is not for a business but I do want to have precise and sharp looking parts.

    I will get an x3 without worrying if in reality a $1000 x3 and a $2000 smaller rf-45 type of machine will achieve the same quality of part. I believe its better to go premium ballscrews, zero backlash ballnuts, and good motors on an smaller mill than spending it on a larger one and less on the conversion. (Unless that upsized mill gives you a significant increase in value, which is what im asking)
    garant machinery as it it in Levis, Quebec
    http://www.garantmachinerie.com/indu...i%20WSM30V.pdf
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own. -Les opinions exprimé dans ce messages sont les mienne

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    39

    Shipping

    Shipping to BC typically costs $200-$300 depending on where in B.C. the shipment is going, if you need a residential delivery and/or a lift gate to unload the truck.

    I recently shipping an X3 to Vancouver with residential and lift gate fees for $250. A terminal pick up would have only cost about $150.

    It is not as bad as you might think.

    I will also be getting Weiss machinery in a few months. They have some pretty nice stuff for a very reasonable price.

    Pat
    www.MachineToolsWarehouse.com

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    228
    pobanion: the website has been down for the last few days so I have not been able to compare your RF45 with ones from Grizzly and Lathemaster.

    Ok so I have spent some time with my wife and she agrees that my track record with machinery has not been great and what I did buy ended up not working or not well enough to keep. In the long run we both agree that a RF45 clone is the best way to go. Let the planning begin...

    Sofar I like Lathemasters machine the best as it is $1500 and has a 2HP Motor as well as a slightly larger travel than the Grizzly. Only downside is I would need to get it shipped and im not sure what to expect on that one... I sent off an email and I'll post back my quote.

    Such a large machine will defiantly require a re-thinking of a DIY cnc setup as not only will the ballscrews and materials be substantially more expensive I doubt my Keling 6050's will be able to handle it unless I put one some of the massive 1200+ ozin nema34 steppers. If I can use steppers then I will only need $600 for the motors and a power supply but If I go to servo then I will need everything putting a motion control price of like $1000

    Realistically I am prepared to allocate $2000 for the machine, $2000 for cnc conversion, and $1000 for tooling but Im betting the prices will shift around but $5000 should be a reasonable target.

    I really like the looks of the IH machine, I had dreams of running it in all its 12 x 30 glory with two Glacern vices but while the $2500 price tag isn't to high I feel that the mid range RF45 will suit me just fine as if I find it lacking the next step would be after a proper house and then I would be getting into a knee sized turnkey solution.

    So Im going to search around for all the RF45 conversions but can anyone recommend me a few places that sell ballscrew conversion kits? Without a lathe capable of turning C7+ screws down Im gonna need to buy from somewhere and with bearings and blocks the better.

    Thanks!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2580

    Have you seen my thread?...

    I certainly do not know a lot about this stuff but my machine with a little help has come out pretty good. I think your costing estimates are right on. I have around 2k in the cnc conversion including the belt drive conversion and vfd. I made a lot of the stuff myself and while it was time consuming the tough part for me was the electronics. My machine is working quite well now and I am learning to use it slowly. I think you will be happy with the RF45 machine. Barring you getting a lemon I think they seem to be pretty nice quality machines. The Ih would be better but it is also considerably more expensive. The reality is that the IH machine is too close in price to a knee mill for me to justify it but it is a decent looking machine and the travels for me would be the big draw. The RF while slightly smaller is a good size machine and can do steel without too much drama. Once you get the machine make sure you post pics and a build thread once you go that road....

    I dunno anything about the weiss? machines but lets face it all of these machines are chinese and while most work fine there are the occasional issues. I think that is why it is important to go with a known dealer...peace

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    39

    Web site

    Hi 2_many_hobbies...

    Sorry about the web site being down.. I will be leaving my current incompetent hosting company (Internic.ca) for another. My site has been down for 2 days now and they just keep telling me their hosting dept is working on it.... Up until 5:00pm that is, then it is time for them all to go home. But not to worry they will fix it tomorrow... This seems to happen on a regular basis.

    Anyway... once the site is working again, look for the new pricing on my super sized RF45's and the Sieg machines.

    www.MachineToolsWarehouse.com

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2849
    For you guys that are working steel (not the 12L stuff) are you using carbide or ?

    I'm asking because about 5 years ago when I had a Rong Fu 30 (the round column) with the 2 HP motor....I tried to machine some steel....I was using a high speed mill (1/4 inch) and all that it appeared to be doing was polishing the surface of the metal. I'm not sure what speed I was using.

    Thanks,
    Paul

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3891
    Quote Originally Posted by ViperTX View Post
    For you guys that are working steel (not the 12L stuff) are you using carbide or ?

    I'm asking because about 5 years ago when I had a Rong Fu 30 (the round column) with the 2 HP motor....I tried to machine some steel....I was using a high speed mill (1/4 inch) and all that it appeared to be doing was polishing the surface of the metal. I'm not sure what speed I was using.

    Thanks,
    Paul
    ive cut 1018 steel with uncoated m42 cobalt end mills on my tiny little kx1. ive also cut the same steel, along with o-1 and hrc55+ vise steel with maritool variable flute tialn bits. i tried uncoated carbide on 1018 and it worked but poorly.

    the trick for me seemed to be high-ish surface speed, shallow depths and agressive feeds. 325sfm with the cobalt, and 650sfm on the variable flutes in hardened steel. 100-15sfm in the o-1. no more than 10% diametre in depth of cut (axial or radial). slotting full width was generally not a good idea, though the variable flute with a corner radius would do it to a point. smaller bits were more efficient on my machine because of rigidity.

    so, for example, in 1018 using a 1/4" 3 flute cobalt bit:
    5000rpm
    .25" depth
    .025" width
    60ipm
    mist coolant

    in hrc55 vise steel with a 1/2" 4 flute tialn carbide variable flute:
    5000rpm
    .025" depth
    .375" width
    100ipm (max for the machine)
    NO coolant

    the last one seems counter intuitive, but works amazingly well. keep in mind my machine isnt very big or rigid, and has a mere 0.6hp.

    in short, nearly any of the machines listed here "can" cut steel. you just need to optimise your cutting strategy to suit. im leaning to getting a weiss wmd25lv at some point.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3891
    Quote Originally Posted by 2_many_hobbies View Post
    I just went through Syil's website and I find it ironic that I lived in Calgary literally 10 blocks up the street and never knew it existed untill I moved to Vancouver lol

    They sell an x4 (out of my price range for their kit) that is slightly larger than the x3 but its hard to tell if the column is any better.

    I was just thinking of ways to strengthen the x3's column and thought why not get a large piece of steel ground flat and weld or bolt it across the back of the column and to the base as well as put a thick steel plate on the base of the machine to bolt the x3 and the column to. Might sound a bit overkill but could be done for probably $300

    Does anybody else carry an x4 sized machine?
    the syil x4 is based on the sx3. its generally similar to the sieg kx3 and the novakon nm-135. the 135 has a few specs upgraded though like a 6000rpm spindle. they all cost close to the same as well.

    syil also sells the bf20l, which would be better suited to steel than the x3 based machines i think. its got more torque, and a significantly more rigid head/column design. its also got 18"+ x travel. i think syil will also sell you conversion parts for the manual bf20 variants.

    the weiss wmd20/25 machines are the same as the bf20l - though potentially higher build quality. you could do a decent conversion for cheaper than the syil i think, and would probably be happier with it than an x3 conversion.

    the wmd30lv would be a big step up in size, weight and travel. more on par with a good rf45 but more compact. you can also aparently order them with a 30 taper spindle.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    228
    Speaking of turnkey knee mills was a random find but I highly doubt ANY of the electronics really works at that price.

    Either way why are knee mills considered "better" than a bed mill?? From what I have seen a knee mill is only accurate when the knee is locked in place and if you wanted 3D work you would need to run the quill instead.

    Only way I can see it is you have benchtop machines manual and cnc (x1/2/3/4/etc) to manual knee mills. The next step up would be benchtop VMC's (IH/Tormach) then cnc knee mills and the high run production machines are all VMC's but in the $50,000+ range

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    ive cut 1018 steel with uncoated m42 cobalt end mills on my tiny little kx1. ive also cut the same steel, along with o-1 and hrc55+ vise steel with maritool variable flute tialn bits. i tried uncoated carbide on 1018 and it worked but poorly.

    the trick for me seemed to be high-ish surface speed, shallow depths and agressive feeds. 325sfm with the cobalt, and 650sfm on the variable flutes in hardened steel. 100-15sfm in the o-1. no more than 10% diametre in depth of cut (axial or radial). slotting full width was generally not a good idea, though the variable flute with a corner radius would do it to a point. smaller bits were more efficient on my machine because of rigidity.

    so, for example, in 1018 using a 1/4" 3 flute cobalt bit:
    5000rpm
    .25" depth
    .025" width
    60ipm
    mist coolant

    in hrc55 vise steel with a 1/2" 4 flute tialn carbide variable flute:
    5000rpm
    .025" depth
    .375" width
    100ipm (max for the machine)
    NO coolant

    the last one seems counter intuitive, but works amazingly well. keep in mind my machine isnt very big or rigid, and has a mere 0.6hp.

    in short, nearly any of the machines listed here "can" cut steel. you just need to optimise your cutting strategy to suit. im leaning to getting a weiss wmd25lv at some point.
    Those numbers make no sense to me. You're running 370SFPM on that first one, and 650SFPM on the second. And a 0.040" chipload on the first, and 0.050" chipload on the second. The 370 SFPM is high, but maybe not crazy high. But the 650 SFPM in hard steel? That is way off the top of any manufacturers numbers I've ever seen for an endmill cutting something like that. And those chiploads are waaaaaaaay high! 1/2" endmills typically have a 0.002-0.004" maximum chipload. I've never seen one much higher, even in aluminum. Seems to me you'd get REALLY short tool life cutting like that.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3891
    Quote Originally Posted by HimyKabibble View Post
    Those numbers make no sense to me. You're running 370SFPM on that first one, and 650SFPM on the second. And a 0.040" chipload on the first, and 0.050" chipload on the second. The 370 SFPM is high, but maybe not crazy high. But the 650 SFPM in hard steel? That is way off the top of any manufacturers numbers I've ever seen for an endmill cutting something like that. And those chiploads are waaaaaaaay high! 1/2" endmills typically have a 0.002-0.004" maximum chipload. I've never seen one much higher, even in aluminum. Seems to me you'd get REALLY short tool life cutting like that.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    i think youve done your math wrong on the feed rates. the second is .004" feed per tooth, and it is very agressive. agressive seems to be the recomendation for hard milling. the same bit in 1018 would need a different strategy.

    the first has an effective feed per tooth near .0003" due to the shallow axial cut.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    398
    Why not get a KX3? Little Machine Shop just started selling them. I got mine direct from factory earlier in the year. I was impressed with machine and the shipping crate it came in. BTW I am in Surrey. I am just getting around to using my KX3. They new one from LMS are supposed to have the 5K spindle. not the 3.5K I got :-(
    Dave

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    3891
    Quote Originally Posted by dfmiller View Post
    Why not get a KX3? Little Machine Shop just started selling them. I got mine direct from factory earlier in the year. I was impressed with machine and the shipping crate it came in. BTW I am in Surrey. I am just getting around to using my KX3. They new one from LMS are supposed to have the 5K spindle. not the 3.5K I got :-(
    Dave
    novakon's version is a 6k spindle now. machine tools warehouse is selling the sieg versions in canada. so, not to cut off LMS, but theres no real reason to buy from the US in the case of an X3 variant turnkey cnc since there are 3 canadian suppliers.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    228
    Quote Originally Posted by dfmiller View Post
    Why not get a KX3? BTW I am in Surrey
    Hey someone local! Im on the Surrey/Langley border.

    I was originally planning on getting a x3 and the cncfusions conversion kit as for $2500 you would build a top of the line machine (well as good as you can get on an x3) I was planning on adding a belt drive with 2HP motor and VFD.

    The overall size and fully finished price of that x3 solution was very attractive but I was worried it would not handle steel very well.

    What are you planning on using your KX3 for and what kind of materials? I would be very interested in checking out your setup if it can handle steel.

Page 2 of 3 123

Similar Threads

  1. Benchtop Mills So Many Choices
    By Woodenspoke in forum Benchtop Machines
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 03-14-2009, 02:10 PM
  2. Cranking out part's on Benchtop Mills
    By Ron111 in forum Benchtop Machines
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-09-2007, 05:39 PM
  3. need opinions on small benchtop lathes and mills
    By massajamesb in forum Benchtop Machines
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-23-2007, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •