[MadMax]

Well, I think things are more or less as they should be. It would be quite difficult to shoehorn a deep understanding of toolmaking into an engineering curriculum. I'm not saying that mechanical eng's wouldn't benefit from some exposure, but I think it would be very difficult to jam an extra 2yrs of school and 3yrs of apprenticeship into a 4yr undergraduate mech program.

Mechanical engineering focuses more on applied physics than the actual fabrication of shapes. Our curriculum gives us more of a general experience in part design as opposed to part fabrication. So general that we get a decent dollop of material science, chemistry, solid mechanics (study of stress and strain in shapes), electronics (motors and a bit signals and microprocessors), and a smidgen of manufacturing techniques. An undergrad degree is generic enough that we're more expected to figure out where we need to learn more for our specific jobs than actually know enough to immediately do anything. We take all sorts of things for granted like mating a pair of parts in a Solidworks assembly as "perpendicular" or "parallel". CAD gives us an idealized environment to allow us to focus more on designing for deflection, vibration, or wear (contact pressure). If we worried about scraping and blueing too much, we wouldn't be able to design anything light enough to fly. Our brains are too small to consider every factor under the sun. Unfortunately we sometimes accidentally read the glossy brochures at the university registrar and we actually think we're super smart and forget that we only know enough to find out where we need to learn more. Sometimes one of the properties of ignorance is that you don't know what you don't know.

There is definitely a happier middleground between the division between engineering and tool making. Good product design also includes considerations towards manufacturing.

I own and operate a tiny company so I get to worry about the tradeoffs from start to finish. I design with consideration of costs in materials, tooling (fabricated in house), part manufacturing, assembly, packaging, marketing, and sales. It seems to me that a well balanced design equally annoys everyone. From the T&D guy who wishes the tooling could be a little simpler or maybe made twice as thick, assembly foreman who wishes there could be fewer parts, and the sales guy who wants me to drop the pricing by 10%, and finally me wishing that production could go maybe 15% faster with a commensurate increase in sales.

[juergenwt]

madmax-I like what you are saying. There is a lot of know how in your words.
One thing is very important for a manufacturing engineer and that is a good understanding on how and at what cost a part can be made. What tooling and at what quality will be needed and many of the other things you listed that would come into play.A toolmaker usually does not have all that info available to him. What he needs to know is how to make the tool to the specifications on his tool print.
All this is for a tool and die maker working in a manufacturing plant and I understand there are many toolmakers working in small shops where it is up to them to design and build a cost effective tool.

[DareBee]

You guys are great.
You make no bones about the fact that you are good at what you do as well as have a personal awareness that you don't know everything and ask for help when needed.
My kind of people.

[John Welden]

Seems to me that the tool maker title doesn't mean all that much now days. Machining is such a big field with so many specialties, it's impossible for one guy to be a "tool maker" in all fields.

A guy might be a guru mold maker and be lost when it comes to sheet metal tooling. There are a million examples like this and they are all tool makers.

In my opinion, "tool makers" are usually people who are good at making stuff and people who are good at making stuff have some fundamental traits about them. 3-d visualization, attention to detail, creativity, patience and they deeply care about the quality of their work.

I don't think it really matters if you end up in a mold shop or wherever else, you'll probably become good at it if you have the traits I listed.

[DareBee]

I hear what you are saying John. However I don't agree with your analogy. Mould Maker is it's own certification as is Die Maker. Sure there is some overlap, but a Toolmaker is not expected to know mould making.

[John Welden]

I hear what you are saying John. However I don't agree with your analogy. Mould Maker is it's own certification as is Die Maker. Sure there is some overlap, but a Toolmaker is not expected to know mould making.

I'm not familiar with any certifications and haven't worked with anyone that had one. Where do you go to get these certifications?

Certifications or titles or diplomas or whatever don't really mean all that much to me. I have a diploma from a technical collage in machining and it means absolutely nothing to me. I learned 99.9% of what I know on the job.

[DareBee]

Typically you do a 6000 or 8000 hour (depends which trade) apprenticeship while going to night school. If you pass those, then you have to ace a government test. Pass that and you got a "Certificate of Qualification".

I am fairly sure US has similar thing. Europe has been doing apprenticeships for centuries.

[hutchison]

I know (shrug), my only failing is excessive modesty.

you mean 'finely honed' i'm sure, :

[John Welden]

I wish the USA had what you're talking about. I wish I had grown up someplace in Europe that could have got me into this trade a lot sooner.

[Geof]

I wish the USA had what you're talking about. I wish I had grown up someplace in Europe that could have got me into this trade a lot sooner.

I think you are probably not alone in that. It is a pity the European tradition of apprenticeships never caught on as much both in Canada and the US. I think one reason was that over here years ago companies could 'import' their ticketed tradespeople, they didn't need to 'waste money training them'.

[MadMax]

I think that there's something about the strong culture of individualism in North America that runs contrary to a the practice of apprenticeships. It's beneficial to think that one can achieve anything if it leads to one striving for ambitious goals. However, I think the culture can lead to an indifference to deep technologies. Perhaps a bit of blithe arrogance even.

In my city, the University of Toronto graduates over 100 mechanical engineers a year. Seneca college graduates a mere 15 tool and die initiates (ready for apprenticeship), and I'm not sure what George Brown (another college) does. Another university named Ryerson graduates even more eng's but I don't know their numbers (less than UofT).

I get the feeling that most of the boys in Toronto who want to make cars feel like their creativity and genius would be best recognized in the engineering department at Ford. It blew my mind how many mech eng' undergraduates skipped out on shop class and focused only on maths and sciences in high school. General marketing (and the high school guidance counselor) would say: If you want to express your individualism, and you like metal stuff, BE AN ENGINEER! It's sad, but T&D is where meticulous individuals precisely execute the orders of others and I think that runs contrary to a strong culture of individualism and sexiness.

I've visited machine shops in China where dozens of bright eyed young men work. I've worked with several European tool makers (even one who still uses a pantograph). I just think that there's something culturally contrary to recruiting for T&D in America that doesn't exist in Europe or Asia.

Hey! That's good for most of you guys. That's why you're special and you get paid big bucks. Us mechanical engineers are having a brutal time getting work doing actual engineering. The most successful mech eng's end up working for Mckinsey Financial Consulting because they're good with analysis.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Being older than Geof, I had to be enrolled in a State Indentured Apprenticeship (Wisconsin, USA) to call myself a machinist.

In the (my) old days, to be a "Toolmaker", you had to take another two year stint. That would also be in a specialized field such as tool & die, mold maker etc.

We also had advanced specialties such as millwright etc. after attaining the machinist level.

We in the machine tool trade had an 4 year apprenticeship for "machine erectors". This included machine time as part of their training as well.

Machinist apprenticeship was 6,000 hrs on the job with prescribed minimum time on each type or group of machines (turning, milling, grinding etc.) and 2,000 hrs classroom time over 4 years +/-.

Then many companies started "pirating" the graduated journeyman machinists from the companies that spent the time and money to train their employees. After that, very few companies continued to train people. That's when the technical schools attempted to provide the equivalent training but has not provided the same level of expertise.

Now you have a "few good men" and a lot of phd (push harder dummy) operators, many of which have legitimate MBA degrees. (they lost their jobs thanks to their fellow bean-counters).

Many (myself included) also trained as ME's and specialized as Mfg Eng.

Enough ranting, have to take a breath. LOL

Dick Z

[DareBee]

IDK - I think you and Geof are aboot the same age.

[Geof]

No, Mr Zastrow is much older and more deserving of respect from his youngers than me.

[Al_The_Man]

I think you are probably not alone in that. It is a pity the European tradition of apprenticeships never caught on as much both in Canada and the US. I think one reason was that over here years ago companies could 'import' their ticketed tradespeople, they didn't need to 'waste money training them'.

At the time I finished my Training, I lost alot of my T&D friends to the US, Somehow these companies got hold of the graduation lists and it was virtually days after they finished they usually had a 3 page Telegram, (before emails!!) extolling the virtues of working for them in the US, even offering them a trip over to entice them.
Some of course also wanted to dodge the obligatory military service!.
Al.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Geof, complimentary remarks will get you anywhere, as long as you bring enough beer. LOL

Dick Z