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IndustryArena Forum > Other Machines > General Other Machine Discussion > Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?
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  1. #1
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    Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hey Zone,

    I am looking for some direction selecting a software programmable drive (or drive/motor combo) that can operate standalone without software or plc control. The application is to turn a gear box output shaft 90 degrees. Then reverse the gear box 90 degrees. Very simple motion/step calculation. I would prefer a drive that can home without switches when enabled by slowly moving until it hits a hard stop, that would be home at power on. It needs an input (analog or digital) that can tell the drive when to start the exact opposite motion. That's all this needs to do, power on, home, and a CW, CCW motion x number of steps over and over again. No other functionality needed. A relay output would be a bonus.

    There is so much online for such a simple operation it makes my head spin. This is for an industrial application and will cycle around 1m times per year.

    Can anybody point me in the right direction?

    Cheers!

  2. #2
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Sound like a perfect job for a bell crank. No servo required.

    But yes it can also be done with a servo. Take a look at a ClearPath servo, they have a programmable model.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  3. #3
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    I was looking at ClearPath datasheets this afternoon at work! I forgot to add to my first post I am looking for 600vac and 460vac motors/drives (an ideal)

    Today was my first day at this job and I have been tasked with finding a simple control. Right now they are trying to use a 3ph motor, gearbox, vfd with no braking, a hall sensor and chintzy plc

    The motion I am trying to replace IS a bell crank reciprocating type linkage!

  4. #4
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    OK, this just got real. The operating voltage changes things a bit. Is this a diverter for some kind of packaging line or sorting system?

    Delta servos might be a good option. What is the torque required? Gear ratio?

    https://www.delta-americas.com/Indus.../Servo-Systems
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    OK, this just got real. The operating voltage changes things a bit. Is this a diverter for some kind of packaging line or sorting system?

    Delta servos might be a good option. What is the torque required? Gear ratio?

    https://www.delta-americas.com/Indus.../Servo-Systems
    I've convinced the boss that 230vac 3ph is ok as industrial mains voltages in canada are normally 575 and 460-480 in the usa. Transformers are cheap.

    The application is super simple, a regenerative heat exchanger for air handlers. The motor and controls are for the dampers. Required tq. is around 500"lbs. and we are using a 50:1 gear box so no shortage of tq using the smallest ClearPath motor/drive. I talked to Ian at Teknic today, need to call him tomorrow to see if any of these models has an alarm output.

    The Delta motors/drives look good. Lots of integrated programming options. Have not inquired on price yet

  6. #6
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    For Delta pricing, Automation Direct has the best prices on the 230V units, about 50% of the distributor pricing. I just went through all of this for a 7.5kW system and got quotes from a distributor until I realized that Automation Direct was selling the Delta units under their own SureServo2 label.

    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...(sv2a_series)#

    All of the ClearPath units have an alarm output.

    For this application would an off-the-shelf damper actuator work? It's kind of what they are designed to do.
    https://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.c.../PUBL-7211.pdf
    Damper Actuators
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  7. #7
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    Right now they are trying to use a 3ph motor, gearbox, vfd with no braking, a hall sensor and chintzy plc
    Most VFDs already have basic PLC functionality built in. This is what I would use too - a VFD and a couple of sensors/switches. Is there a reason you need a servo there?

  8. #8
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenOfDreams View Post
    Most VFDs already have basic PLC functionality built in. This is what I would use too - a VFD and a couple of sensors/switches. Is there a reason you need a servo there?
    You can not get accurate positioning with a VFD Drive
    Mactec54

  9. #9
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    I've convinced the boss that 230vac 3ph is ok as industrial mains voltages in canada are normally 575 and 460-480 in the usa. Transformers are cheap.

    The application is super simple, a regenerative heat exchanger for air handlers. The motor and controls are for the dampers. Required tq. is around 500"lbs. and we are using a 50:1 gear box so no shortage of tq using the smallest ClearPath motor/drive. I talked to Ian at Teknic today, need to call him tomorrow to see if any of these models has an alarm output.

    The Delta motors/drives look good. Lots of integrated programming options. Have not inquired on price yet
    You could get a simple Indexer Board from DMM this is a stand alone board that you can program to get your servo Drive / motors to do what ever you want

    Not sure if they are still making it as I don't see it on there web site but worth a try it does not get any simpler than this if they have it

    http://www.dmm-tech.com/

    Mactec54

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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post

    For this application would an off-the-shelf damper actuator work? It's kind of what they are designed to do.
    https://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.c.../PUBL-7211.pdf
    Damper Actuators
    No, they have a very slow open / close time and are not rated for the number of cycles we need. I've been dealing with Belimo and Honeywell (and other) damper actuators for 20 years. Not the right application.



    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenOfDreams View Post
    Most VFDs already have basic PLC functionality built in. This is what I would use too - a VFD and a couple of sensors/switches. Is there a reason you need a servo there?
    We want to move forward technologically, simplicity and mostly as a selling feature.


    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You could get a simple Indexer Board from DMM this is a stand alone board that you can program to get your servo Drive / motors to do what ever you want

    Not sure if they are still making it as I don't see it on there web site but worth a try it does not get any simpler than this if they have it

    DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMim...Jko1jCpoUj6f4Q
    I called DMM earlier this week, they don't have a standalone solution for our system. Their motors and drives are still working perfectly in my Bridgeport tho!


    I placed an order for a ClearPath today, we are just waiting on a reply regarding their UL cert. Our equipment needs to be Intertek certified, really hoping this doesn't screw up my plan!

  11. #11
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    Hey Zone,

    I am looking for some direction selecting a software programmable drive (or drive/motor combo) that can operate standalone without software or plc control. The application is to turn a gear box output shaft 90 degrees. Then reverse the gear box 90 degrees. Very simple motion/step calculation. I would prefer a drive that can home without switches when enabled by slowly moving until it hits a hard stop, that would be home at power on. It needs an input (analog or digital) that can tell the drive when to start the exact opposite motion. That's all this needs to do, power on, home, and a CW, CCW motion x number of steps over and over again. No other functionality needed. A relay output would be a bonus.

    There is so much online for such a simple operation it makes my head spin. This is for an industrial application and will cycle around 1m times per year.

    Can anybody point me in the right direction?

    Cheers!
    Contact a high school with students interested in programming and electronics. This is a simple thing to do, solvable by almost any engineer, student or people interested in programming Arduino, Raspberry PI or some other microcontroller.

  12. #12
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    No, they have a very slow open / close time and are not rated for the number of cycles we need. I've been dealing with Belimo and Honeywell (and other) damper actuators for 20 years. Not the right application.
    I understand.

    If I understand correctly this unit will have 2 states, open and closed. Time to move between the states must be minimal. If you have compressed air available in the system, then this would really be a perfect application for an air cylinder operating a bell crank system.

    If you feel that a servo motor system must be installed, then maybe serious look at a linear actuator as opposed to a rotating gearbox system would be in order.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  13. #13
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Contact a high school with students interested in programming and electronics. This is a simple thing to do, solvable by almost any engineer, student or people interested in programming Arduino, Raspberry PI or some other microcontroller.
    Ya for sure we could do this with an embedded controller but our products need to carry an Intertek or CSA cert so these are out. If we end up doing an embedded control we will design it ourselves as a proprietary control. We will likely eventually end up going this route because we don't want service techs messing around with plc parameters on site.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I understand.

    If I understand correctly this unit will have 2 states, open and closed. Time to move between the states must be minimal. If you have compressed air available in the system, then this would really be a perfect application for an air cylinder operating a bell crank system.

    If you feel that a servo motor system must be installed, then maybe serious look at a linear actuator as opposed to a rotating gearbox system would be in order.
    Another yep, open / closed. Pneumatic is out and I did look into linear actuation as it would make the system much simpler, the design team didn't really like the idea?? and it can get a bit cost prohibitive when looking for a quality industrial product rated for 5 million cycles.

    I need to keep costs and complexity to a minimum and the elimination of hall/prox sensors, encoders, VFD's etc. is attractive to the design team. We will still be using linkage to drive the second damper bank but will be simple with a CW/CCW motion using crank arms and a tie bar.
    We will see, we are just in turbo prototype stage right now. Looking today at inexpensive CLICK plc's and some AB smart relays.

    Thanks for all the ideas so far guys, appreciated!

  14. #14

    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    Hey Zone,

    I am looking for some direction selecting a software programmable drive (or drive/motor combo) that can operate standalone without software or plc control. The application is to turn a gear box output shaft 90 degrees. Then reverse the gear box 90 degrees. Very simple motion/step calculation. I would prefer a drive that can home without switches when enabled by slowly moving until it hits a hard stop, that would be home at power on. It needs an input (analog or digital) that can tell the drive when to start the exact opposite motion. That's all this needs to do, power on, home, and a CW, CCW motion x number of steps over and over again. No other functionality needed. A relay output would be a bonus.

    There is so much online for such a simple operation it makes my head spin. This is for an industrial application and will cycle around 1m times per year.

    Can anybody point me in the right direction?

    Cheers!
    Maybe a single axis controller plus one servo motor and one servo driver can do the job.
    But 600vac and 460vac is not usually used, normally 380VAC or 220VAC.
    http://cncmakers.com/cnc/controllers/CNC_Controller_System/CNC_Retrofit_Package.html

  15. #15
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    ......

    Another yep, open / closed. Pneumatic is out and I did look into linear actuation as it would make the system much simpler, the design team didn't really like the idea?? and it can get a bit cost prohibitive when looking for a quality industrial product rated for 5 million cycles.

    I need to keep costs and complexity to a minimum and the elimination of hall/prox sensors, encoders, VFD's etc. is attractive to the design team. We will still be using linkage to drive the second damper bank but will be simple with a CW/CCW motion using crank arms and a tie bar.
    We will see, we are just in turbo prototype stage right now. Looking today at inexpensive CLICK plc's and some AB smart relays.

    Thanks for all the ideas so far guys, appreciated!
    OK, one more idea and then I'll give up.

    Delta (SureServo2 from Automation Direct) drives have a number of features, including a jog function that can be operated with a digital signal. They also have limit switch inputs. They are also UL & CE listed.

    This would require the use of limit switches or prox sensors, but it would vastly simplify the controls. Run to the limit on each end of the travel. No homing required.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  16. #16
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    OK, one more idea and then I'll give up.

    Delta (SureServo2 from Automation Direct) drives have a number of features, including a jog function that can be operated with a digital signal. They also have limit switch inputs. They are also UL & CE listed.

    This would require the use of limit switches or prox sensors, but it would vastly simplify the controls. Run to the limit on each end of the travel. No homing required.
    Jim most all quality Servo Drives have these features and have done for the last 20 years
    Mactec54

  17. #17
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    I've convinced the boss that 230vac 3ph is ok as industrial mains voltages in canada are normally 575 and 460-480 in the usa. Transformers are cheap.
    230v 3Ph is not the norm, 208v can be found in most industrial systems

    https://pacificpower.com/2017/07/und...phase-voltage/

    For your control you can't get anything much simpler than this PLC and cost is Great as well

    https://www.automationdirect.com/clickplcs/clickplus
    Mactec54

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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    So an update: Ran into a snag regarding the ClearPath cUL cert. The DC motor/drive carries cUL component listing but the AC motor/drive only carries RU recognized component cert.
    Waiting to hear back from Erik on Monday to see if they are willing to get the cUL cert for the AC motor. They sell a ton of AC motors into canada and I am not sure how these OEM's are getting around this when it comes time to get their product ETL or CSA certified.

    Starting to look at other motors and drives

  19. #19
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hi,
    I've been reading up on the Delta A2 series of servos which have an ECAM feature, sort of a canned cycle which can be programmed into the drive.
    Maybe it would suit your purpose.

    Craig

  20. #20
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    Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    I've been reading up on the Delta A2 series of servos which have an ECAM feature, sort of a canned cycle which can be programmed into the drive.
    Maybe it would suit your purpose.

    Craig
    I too have been reading up on ecam. My application I/O is:

    0-10vdc analog signal input controlling the timing of digital outputs. (between 15-25 seconds) I am not a programmer and am not sure exactly how this is handled with logic. It needs to be linear 0-10vdc = a 1 second on/off DO in a given time domain between 15-25 seconds.

    I have been in contact with Delta and Kollmorgen. The delta motors are odd metric sizes and don't fit standard nema size gear reduction boxes. I spent most of today emailing back and forth with Nidec regarding their Digitax servo drives (Epsilon EP is nearing end of production). Their products look good and they carry cUL cert. Just waiting for a detailed response from their app. eng. in Toronto. I really need to get a control put together this week, boss is really counting on me! (we have a po for 4 units, 5 week ready to ship from today)

    Their Unidrive M700 also looks like it could work with an ac induction motor w/50:1 gearbox, encoder and braking resistor.

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