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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?
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  1. #1

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    tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I got my self a haimer sensor. I have been trying to dial it in. Not a friendly task.

    I worked on it for some time before I started learning how to do it. I can dial it quite quickly now. I dial this thing in till my dial indicator doesnt move when I spin the haimer in the spindle, all is good. But to double check, I take it out of the spindle and put it back in and test again. And my dial test indicator moves as much as 3.5 thou when I turn the haimer in the spindle.

    After a while I decide to put my dial indicator as close to the center of the haimer tip as possible using my jog wheel in the z axis and x axis. I dial the indicator in again, and then remove the haimer from the spindle and then put it back in for another test. Its off again.

    I repeat this proccess again this time marking the tool holder and the spindle....same results. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a limitation of a tormach machine?

    Video of getting it dialed in perfect:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk-G-SalSQ

    Video of taking the haimer out of the spindle and putting it back in for a double check:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PB0d6Jes54

  2. #2
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevbo22 View Post
    I got my self a haimer sensor. I have been trying to dial it in. Not a friendly task.

    I worked on it for some time before I started learning how to do it. I can dial it quite quickly now. I dial this thing in till my dial indicator doesnt move when I spin the haimer in the spindle, all is good. But to double check, I take it out of the spindle and put it back in and test again. And my dial test indicator moves as much as 3.5 thou when I turn the haimer in the spindle.

    After a while I decide to put my dial indicator as close to the center of the haimer tip as possible using my jog wheel in the z axis and x axis. I dial the indicator in again, and then remove the haimer from the spindle and then put it back in for another test. Its off again.

    I repeat this proccess again this time marking the tool holder and the spindle....same results. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a limitation of a tormach machine?

    Video of getting it dialed in perfect:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pk-G-SalSQ

    Video of taking the haimer out of the spindle and putting it back in for a double check:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PB0d6Jes54
    I’ve used them in full size vmc’s with cat 40 holders and have never had that issue. I’ve never touched a tormach though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Next time you zero out the run out of the Haimer do this. Before you remove the Haimer put a dot of paint on the spindle and one on the tool holder make sure they line up. Whenever you put the Haimer in the spindle make sure the dots line up. This will eliminate one possible source of error. Have a good look inside your spindle and see if there are any metal chips in there also.

  4. #4
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
    Next time you zero out the run out of the Haimer do this. Before you remove the Haimer put a dot of paint on the spindle and one on the tool holder make sure they line up. Whenever you put the Haimer in the spindle make sure the dots line up. This will eliminate one possible source of error. Have a good look inside your spindle and see if there are any metal chips in there also.
    The second picture shows he tried that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by upnorth View Post
    Next time you zero out the run out of the Haimer do this. Before you remove the Haimer put a dot of paint on the spindle and one on the tool holder make sure they line up. Whenever you put the Haimer in the spindle make sure the dots line up. This will eliminate one possible source of error. Have a good look inside your spindle and see if there are any metal chips in there also.
    Ya i did do this. I attached a picture of that in my first post. Still didnt work however.

  6. #6

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Do you put grease or anti-seize in your spindle where it contacts the R8 collet? If yes, how much anti-seize/grease do you apply there?

    Also, if you repeatedly take the Haimer out and put it back in, is the runout always the same? Also try and make sure you don't have any chips near the spindle nose, as that can throw things out quite a bit.

  7. #7
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Are you using a dedicated holder for the holder? I've found that you need to do this.
    Secondly.....make sure the tip of the Haimer is firmly screwed in. Mine was just a touch loose for a while, and I spent bloody hours chasing backlash and alignment on the Tormach before I realised......

  8. #8
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    It doesn't address your repeatability issue but I found that replacing the four small setscrews with socket head cap screws (SHCS) makes it significantly easier to adjust the Haimer for concentricity. Plus, it prevents the possibility of stripping the sockets of the small (4mm?) setscrews.

  9. #9
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    It doesn't address your repeatability issue but I found that replacing the four small setscrews with socket head cap screws (SHCS) makes it significantly easier to adjust the Haimer for concentricity. Plus, it prevents the possibility of stripping the sockets of the small (4mm?) setscrews.

    That's a great tip. Worthy of some reputation points.


    I've played with the idea of getting 3D taster, but I'm still using a tool height setter and an edge finder. For me its about price. I can get a tool height setter and an edge finder for all 5 mills for around the cost of a 3D taster. I really like the Fisher clicker edge finders. For most jobs they get me close enough to put a part back on the machine after I have taken it off. I keep one in a tool holder on the Tormach and on the Hurco.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  10. #10
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Is the tts collar a shrink fit or is it held tight with only a setscrew? This can cause errors in and of itself. Also it needs to be faced off after installation, if the top surface isnt absolutely flat that will be a problem as well.
    mike sr

  11. #11
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by popspipes View Post
    Is the tts collar a shrink fit or is it held tight with only a setscrew? This can cause errors in and of itself. Also it needs to be faced off after installation, if the top surface isnt absolutely flat that will be a problem as well.
    Would it be better to put the taster in a collet chuck tool holder instead of a set screw tool holder?
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  12. #12

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post
    Do you put grease or anti-seize in your spindle where it contacts the R8 collet? If yes, how much anti-seize/grease do you apply there?

    Also, if you repeatedly take the Haimer out and put it back in, is the runout always the same? Also try and make sure you don't have any chips near the spindle nose, as that can throw things out quite a bit.
    No, I do not have any grease or anti seize in the spindle. I have also made sure that I have no left over chips in it. I can check to see if the runout is the same. I only have ever checked it the one time after and then get frustrated and start over. But I will check this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Neill
    Are you using a dedicated holder for the holder? I've found that you need to do this.
    Secondly.....make sure the tip of the Haimer is firmly screwed in. Mine was just a touch loose for a while, and I spent bloody hours chasing backlash and alignment on the Tormach before I realised......
    Yes using a dedicated holder. I have screwed in and double re-screwed in the haimer tip to see if this was the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by popspipes
    Is the tts collar a shrink fit or is it held tight with only a setscrew? This can cause errors in and of itself. Also it needs to be faced off after installation, if the top surface isnt absolutely flat that will be a problem as well.
    The TTS holder is just the standard haimer 10mm set screw holder that tormach sells with the unit. But yes it is a set screw holder. "needs to be faced off", really? You had to do this on yours? This is the holder I am using: https://www.tormach.com/store/index....18&portrelay=1

  13. #13
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    This did remind me to check and adjust my hammer. I need to remember to do this monthly or more often then 6 months or more. Anyway it was off a little in x with dial to front. Can be tricky to adjust, I first loosen all the sets screws a tiny amount. Then rotate hammer using belt drive wheel. Carefully adjust screws in sets. Get it on 0 then move away . Remove probe and turn as desired put back in. Move back on indicator, check and no change.

    For me a hammer is a must like a pdb. Makes setting ucs simple, fast and accurate with 1/10 the steps I use for edge finders and height indicators.

    I would replace r8 collet and adjust draw bar and lube as per instructions. Also I would check the probe on a spin indexer with 3/4 collet as a control. This could help rule out holder issue.

  14. #14
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    It appeared to be a tts ring held in place with a set screw to me is whay I said that.

    what you have should work fine.
    mike sr

  15. #15
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by popspipes View Post
    It appeared to be a tts ring held in place with a set screw to me is whay I said that.

    what you have should work fine.
    They are all one piece machined hardened and Ground
    Mactec54

  16. #16

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I had this problem with Haimer and the TTS holder for it. The concentricity of the tip always go off by +/-0.01mm after a while, but not immediate like yours did.

    Unfortunately I don't have good news for you as I have pretty much given up on my Haimer. I use the Hallmark ITTP now and that has been a great piece of equipment.

    I hope you will find a solution for your Haimer soon.

  17. #17

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post
    I had this problem with Haimer and the TTS holder for it. The concentricity of the tip always go off by +/-0.01mm after a while, but not immediate like yours did.

    Unfortunately I don't have good news for you as I have pretty much given up on my Haimer. I use the Hallmark ITTP now and that has been a great piece of equipment.

    I hope you will find a solution for your Haimer soon.
    Ya, im right there with ya. I am about ready to give up on it as well.

  18. #18
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post
    I had this problem with Haimer and the TTS holder for it. The concentricity of the tip always go off by +/-0.01mm after a while, but not immediate like yours did.

    Unfortunately I don't have good news for you as I have pretty much given up on my Haimer. I use the Hallmark ITTP now and that has been a great piece of equipment.

    I hope you will find a solution for your Haimer soon.
    Interesting!
    Electronic probes don't require adjustment?

  19. #19
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    Interesting!
    Electronic probes don't require adjustment?
    Umm. Yes they do. Electronic or not it still has a probe tip that has to be adjusted to run true with the spindle.

  20. #20
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Maybe the shock of the PDB closing/closing is affecting the accuracy?
    I would try a piece of ground stock in the spindle, indicate it and then remove and reinstall, and indicate it again, if there is no difference iwould be suspect of the haimer, as the shock of the PDB opening or closing may be affecting it possibly??
    Sounds like a couple of others are having similar problems.

    Very interested in what you find the problem to be.
    mike sr

  21. #21
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post
    I had this problem with Haimer and the TTS holder for it. The concentricity of the tip always go off by +/-0.01mm after a while, but not immediate like yours did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post

    Unfortunately I don't have good news for you as I have pretty much given up on my Haimer. I use the Hallmark ITTP now and that has been a great piece of equipment.

    I hope you will find a solution for your Haimer soon.



    Wait a minute. That's less than 4 tenths. Isn't that far better than the machine itself? Isn't anything less than 5 tenths considered pretty good for general machining?

    If the Haimer isn't working for you what do you go with instead?

    One option with electronic edge finders is to probe twice 180 degrees out, and then do the math. Even then unless you have a really really high end probe you could still be +/- a couple tenths. I've tested this by auto probing hole centers with am electronic probe. Cheap ones and mid range ones. Never had a high end one.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  22. #22
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Sure seems to indicate 4 tenths is the spec for the unit.
    Please take note: The given measuring precision of 0.01 mm / 0.0004" only applies if the original HAIMER probe tips are used.
    https://www.haimer-usa.com/products/...3d-sensor.html
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  23. #23
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Sure seems to indicate 4 tenths is the spec for the unit.


    https://www.haimer-usa.com/products/...3d-sensor.html

    When I said my probe needed adjustment is was off by exactly 2x that amount or 0.0008 moving the 0.0005 indicator a little in each side of 0
    I use tormach holder, hamier tips, . No drops, no spins. Good history of use, It even sets with a cover over it in tool rack.

  24. #24
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    That's 4 tenths off center. Whichever way you measure its off 4 tenths. Not 8 tenths. Unless I grossly misunderstood what you just wrote.

    Just like in a 4 jaw chuck in a lathe. Its exactly half the variance off center when you throw your indicator on it. If you read 1 inch variance the stock is 1/2 inch off center.

    So, anyway, what is the alernative?
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  25. #25
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    It depends on your accuracy requirements. When I really care about an edge I use a Moore "chair style" edge locator. For holes and tooling balls I use a spindle mounted DTI. Both are a pain but provide reliable accuracy to tenths.

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