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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle
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  1. #1
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    VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi guys,
    I am slowly sourcing parts for a mini cnc mill (working area approx. 450x450mm), last week I ordered a Jianken JGH-105/2.2 spindle and am now looking at VFD's. I live in Australia so have 230-240v mains which will be upgraded to run whatever amps I need to suit this machine. Accurate alluminium parts are the goal (similar to what Foxcam does on youtube).

    Spindle specs: 2.2kw, 400 to 700Hz, 12000-24000RPM, 5.8Amps, 4 pole, 220v, ER20

    I was looking at a Fuling 3.7kW (for some extra kW headroom), 1000Hz, 15A rated output, inverter from G-penny.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...6d33549chQzkkT

    OR the 2.2kw unit 10A rated output,:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7062549cjmCtjM

    Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

    Does anybody have any other brands or VFD's they would recommend? Fuling were the only VFD's rated at 1000Hz that I have found so far. I also read somewhere that the Fuling auto-learn/auto-tune feature is password protected and not actually available for use?

    Also I plan on running a TDK RSEN-2030L emi filter and most likely MACH3.
    Cheers,
    Craig

  2. #2
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,
    I personally don't like the el-cheapo Chinese made stuff, I don't care how cheap it is it's just too inclined to blow up.

    I do favor Delta however. It's a Taiwanese brand made in China and I've had excellent results with Delta products, and they have been
    manufacturing industrial electronics for many years. Admittedly not as cheap as the bargain basement Chinese crap but fair prices none the less.

    Craig

  3. #3
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,

    Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.
    To be honest I don't think its the output specification you should be worried about but rather the input current.

    All VFDs suck a huge amount of current out of the supply. If you comb through the specs you will find that the power factor is about 0.55 to 0.6.
    The input current from a single phase 230V supply to a VFD producing 2.2kW is:

    I= 2200 / (0.55 x 230)
    =17.4A

    And that is about as much as you could reasonably expect from a domestic single phase outlet.

    You might ask 'why is the power factor so low?'. Electronic devices like VFD's get their DC power supply by rectifying and smoothing with electrolytic capacitors
    the incoming AC supply. As a result the device draws current from the supply in very short extremely intensive current bursts. The current demand is highly distorted from
    its pure sinusoid shape and this in turn causes such a poor power factor.

    There are a number of ways to combat such a poor power factor:
    1) Just don't care, it will mean that you probably have to run a bigger electrical cable from the switchboard to the machine with a bigger circuit breaker or fuse.
    Many don't even bother with a new and bigger cable but risk the existing cable overheating or even catching fire.
    2) Use a line reactor. A line reactor is a coil of wire on a transformer core, typically about 10mH for a single phase supply. A line reactor on its own
    will improve the power factor to about 0.85-0.9, so a very worthwhile improvement. If you buy secondhand you could get one for under $100
    3) Use a high end VFD that has built in electronic power factor correction. Many top end European, US and Japanese brands include an electronic boost
    circuit that improves power factor to about 0.95. You can expect to pay for it....

    For the power levels we are talking about a line reactor is a cost effective solution.

    Craig

  4. #4
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    The 'rated amps' figures I mentioned were VFD output amps, not input. So if the spindle is rated at 5.8amps and the VFD can supply up to 10 or 15, then either of those drives should be fine to run the spindle (as seen on 100's of build out there).

    I have some idea of the concept of power factors, we use DC drives at work to run large electromagnets. I've seen that running the drives at say 50% of their max output creates a very low power factor, but they get much better when running closer to their max. capacity which is partly why I am asking if I should NOT bother with a 3.7kw VFD.

    I'm also interested to see what brands other people have run on spindles with operate at higher Hz. I wondered if Fuling were ok since G-penny is a popular spindle supplier around here.

  5. #5
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,

    they get much better when running closer to their max. capacity which is partly why I am asking if I should NOT bother with a 3.7kw VFD.
    With respect to VFD's the power factor is dominated by the 'harmonic distortion current' whereas many other industrial devices, particularly induction motors are dominated by 'displacement current'.
    The amount of distortion a VFD presents to the line is closely related to its current draw. Thus in operation I would expect a 2.2kW inverter running at full load to produce the SAME harmonic current
    as a 3.7kW inverter running the same motor at the same load. The only advantage I see about the larger inverter is that the output IGBT's would, presumably, be somewhat less stressed.
    Note however that a domestic single phase supply is going to limit the potential output of any inverter, once the input circuit breaker opens, it stops, no matter whether it be a 2.2kW or a 3.7kW
    inverter.

    For EITHER a line reactor will help.

    My own Delta inverters are 400Hz units, but they do various models, up to 2000Hz.

    Craig

  6. #6
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by crjohnson View Post
    Hi guys,
    I am slowly sourcing parts for a mini cnc mill (working area approx. 450x450mm), last week I ordered a Jianken JGH-105/2.2 spindle and am now looking at VFD's. I live in Australia so have 230-240v mains which will be upgraded to run whatever amps I need to suit this machine. Accurate alluminium parts are the goal (similar to what Foxcam does on youtube).

    Spindle specs: 2.2kw, 400 to 700Hz, 12000-24000RPM, 5.8Amps, 4 pole, 220v, ER20

    I was looking at a Fuling 3.7kW (for some extra kW headroom), 1000Hz, 15A rated output, inverter from G-penny.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...6d33549chQzkkT

    OR the 2.2kw unit 10A rated output,:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7062549cjmCtjM

    Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

    Does anybody have any other brands or VFD's they would recommend? Fuling were the only VFD's rated at 1000Hz that I have found so far. I also read somewhere that the Fuling auto-learn/auto-tune feature is password protected and not actually available for use?

    Also I plan on running a TDK RSEN-2030L emi filter and most likely MACH3.
    Cheers,
    Craig
    I think you made a mistake it should be 800Hz for a 4 Pole 24000

    Yes that VFD 15A should be fine you don't have many choices when it comes to 800Hz spindle motors
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    To be honest I don't think its the output specification you should be worried about but rather the input current.

    All VFDs suck a huge amount of current out of the supply. If you comb through the specs you will find that the power factor is about 0.55 to 0.6.
    The input current from a single phase 230V supply to a VFD producing 2.2kW is:

    I= 2200 / (0.55 x 230)
    =17.4A

    And that is about as much as you could reasonably expect from a domestic single phase outlet.

    You might ask 'why is the power factor so low?'. Electronic devices like VFD's get their DC power supply by rectifying and smoothing with electrolytic capacitors
    the incoming AC supply. As a result the device draws current from the supply in very short extremely intensive current bursts. The current demand is highly distorted from
    its pure sinusoid shape and this in turn causes such a poor power factor.

    There are a number of ways to combat such a poor power factor:
    1) Just don't care, it will mean that you probably have to run a bigger electrical cable from the switchboard to the machine with a bigger circuit breaker or fuse.
    Many don't even bother with a new and bigger cable but risk the existing cable overheating or even catching fire.
    2) Use a line reactor. A line reactor is a coil of wire on a transformer core, typically about 10mH for a single phase supply. A line reactor on its own
    will improve the power factor to about 0.85-0.9, so a very worthwhile improvement. If you buy secondhand you could get one for under $100
    3) Use a high end VFD that has built in electronic power factor correction. Many top end European, US and Japanese brands include an electronic boost
    circuit that improves power factor to about 0.95. You can expect to pay for it....

    For the power levels we are talking about a line reactor is a cost effective solution.

    Craig
    That is an incorrect number you are using to determine the input current for single phase use
    Mactec54

  8. #8
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by crjohnson View Post
    Hi guys,
    I am slowly sourcing parts for a mini cnc mill (working area approx. 450x450mm), last week I ordered a Jianken JGH-105/2.2 spindle and am now looking at VFD's. I live in Australia so have 230-240v mains which will be upgraded to run whatever amps I need to suit this machine. Accurate alluminium parts are the goal (similar to what Foxcam does on youtube).

    Spindle specs: 2.2kw, 400 to 700Hz, 12000-24000RPM, 5.8Amps, 4 pole, 220v, ER20

    I was looking at a Fuling 3.7kW (for some extra kW headroom), 1000Hz, 15A rated output, inverter from G-penny.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...6d33549chQzkkT

    OR the 2.2kw unit 10A rated output,:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7062549cjmCtjM

    Being that the 2.2kw VFD is rated for 10Amps, I'm wondering if the 3.7kW VFD is not really necessary, even from a "go 1 step bigger for extra safety" perspective.

    Does anybody have any other brands or VFD's they would recommend? Fuling were the only VFD's rated at 1000Hz that I have found so far. I also read somewhere that the Fuling auto-learn/auto-tune feature is password protected and not actually available for use?

    Also I plan on running a TDK RSEN-2030L emi filter and most likely MACH3.
    Cheers,
    Craig
    Before you jump into the VFD Drive it wants to have sensorless vector control option, for this spindle, most VFD Drive manufactures have high frequency Drives the cost is the biggest problem with the high end VFD Drives

    Look for the input Amp Rating of the VFD Drive this is the important part when using single phase power supply, for the motor you are using with a 5.8A rated spindle motor, so you would need the VFD Drive input rating to be between 12A and 15A 15A being the best choice

    The Fuling are sensorless vector control but just check if you do buy this VFD Drive as it may change by model

    As for auto tuning most have trouble with the High frequency spindles Auto tuning it is never protected by a pass word so where ever you heard this it is Bs
    Mactec54

  9. #9
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi Mactec, thank you for getting back to me, I noticed you were the VFD expert but your inbox was full.

    The motor is actually 21000RPM and 700Hz, my mistake.. I read about the password auto tuning on this forum, if I can find it again, I'll re-read it and check.

    How come the input amp rating is most important? I thought the output amp rating would be the important part? I'll ask G-Penny for some more info and a user manual and report back.

    If Fuling's quality is on par with say Huanyang then it looks like I'll end up going with them (pending review of the rest of the specs..)

  10. #10
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,

    How come the input amp rating is most important? I thought the output amp rating would be the important part?
    Your right, the output current is what does the business on the spindle, the problem is that most domestic supplies cannot supply the current
    required by the VFD, or at least without stressing the wiring.

    If you have an electrican fit a new cable and breaker to supply 25A or 32A then that issue goes away.

    Even with a dedicated high current supply a line reactor goes a long way to taming the input demand. Its for this reason that most VFD
    manufacturers mention them.

    Craig

  11. #11

    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Or you need a more pricey VFD with Power Factor Correction (PFC). I don't know that they exist in the size or price range you're looking at.

  12. #12
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    While waiting for G-Penny's reply, I found another model of Fuling VFD which mentions:
    "Two speed control modes: no PG vector control (SVC), V/F control

    - No PG vector control (SVC): starting torque 0.5Hz up to 150%"


    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...35877bbbsMiQk7

  13. #13
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Ok so G-Penny sent me a user manual for the BD600 VFD which has SVC vector control (I'm assuming SVC means "sensorless vector control"??) . If anyone wants a copy let me know and I can email it over.

    Rated input current for the 2.2kW VFD (with vector control, link below), is 23Amps, the manual doesn't list the 3.7kW unit in the single phase input table. Any idea when it would actually draw that much current? During ramp up or when the spindle is actually under full load? If the spindle is only rated to <6Amps, would the VFD still only draw around 14amps?

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...7fac7bbbQaYW9r

    Still interested to know if anyone has used one of these Fuling (or Folinn) VFD's and if it would be suitable for my spindle. Cheers

  14. #14
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,

    Any idea when it would actually draw that much current? During ramp up or when the spindle is actually under full load? If the spindle is only rated to <6Amps, would the VFD still only draw around 14amps?
    The reason is Power Factor (PF) which is typically very poor with electronic devices like VFDs, servo drives, electronic inverter welders etc.
    There is commonly a spike at turn on, all such devices have an In-rush protection circuit otherwise they would immediately pop the circuit breaker on turn-on.
    Otherwise they draw their rated input current, in this case 23A, when they are delivering full load. Under normal circumstances at part load they will draw much less
    current.

    I'm sure you can well imagine that a 3.7kW VFD trying to deliver full output would draw enough, perhaps 30A or more, to pop just about any domestic circuit breaker.
    I would expect that if you used a line reactor the input current (at rated output) would drop from 23A to less than 15A, so they make a very useful contribution
    to PF. With or without a line reactor you would be advised to carefully inspect your fixed wiring to ensure it can deliver the current demanded of the VFD without
    overheating, its plain commonsense.

    For a number of years (7) I worked for a company that fixed and sold welders. The single phase electronic inverter welders which are commonly and cheaply available have the
    same input circuits as a VFD. As a matter of testing I would load the output of the welder, 100A at 20V, to replicate running a 3.2mm welding rod and would observe the
    input current by virtue of the ammeters built into my three phase test board, and for a single phase welder loaded in such a fashion would observe 25A input.
    The power factor is :

    230 x 25 x PF=100 x 20 therefore PF = 2000/(230 x 27) =0.34

    I also had a 10mH line reactor via which I could supply the welder and the input current dropped to about 13A with the same 2kW output load, in other words the
    PF improved to 0.67. I would expect broadly similar results with a VFD.

    Some of the better and much more expensive welders like some Millers, Lincolns, ESABs, Kempis have electronic power factor correction circuits built in and these
    welders could handily deliver 100A @ 20V while drawing 10-11A, ie PFs of 0.8 which is quite respectable. These welder were three and more times the price though!

    Craig

  15. #15
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,
    this is from a Yaskawa application note on power factor:

    A good way of understanding power factor is to consider the equation:

    Power Factor = Cos (Theta)/[1 + THD2]1/2

    where: Theta = displacement angle between fundamental voltage and current
    THD = total harmonic current distortion
    The above equation takes into account fundamental displacement and harmonics. Both affect true
    (overall) power factor
    Note that because VFDs and similar devices have no great big wound coils ie no displacement current and the PF is dominated by harmonic distortion , ie cos(theta)=1 and

    Power Factor=1/(1+THD2)1/2

    As the Total Harmonic Distortion goes up the Power Factor goes down.

    Craig

  16. #16
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Ok so if I set the rated motor current in the VDF to only 6amps, then I should never see 30A being drawn from the mains (if running a 3.7kW VFD). It would still be interesting to know how much the PF (or THD) changes when the VFD is running at say 25, 50, 75, 100% loads. If it is very low at say 50% and under, then I would most likely not purchase the 3.7kW VFD and just stick with the 2.2.

    Also I just realised that the user manual for the Fuling VFD says 10A rated output current, wouldn't that then mean: 10A*220V*1.73 = 3.8kW output? Or is the rated current a momentary type rating? Ie. 10sec?

    The supply to my shed will be getting upgraded to whatever I need to run this machine (plus lights and other stuff).

  17. #17
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,

    Ok so if I set the rated motor current in the VDF to only 6amps, then I should never see 30A being drawn from the main
    Yes, I think that would be correct, although it does rather seem a shame to so severely limit the output and thereby the performance
    of your spindle.

    It would still be interesting to know how much the PF (or THD) changes when the VFD is running at say 25, 50, 75, 100% loads
    The only time I've seen anything tabulated like that was Schneider servo drives. I suspect some of the more reputable European, US and Japanese manufacturers
    would have that data.

    The simple expedient is to fit a line reactor, this one is new for about $50USD:

    https://nz.element14.com/block/lr3-4...-4a/dp/2751043

    If you wired the coils (with consistent phasing) in parallel you'd have an 12A line reactor, no trouble. There are plenty of them secondhand on Ebay too.

    The supply to my shed will be getting upgraded to whatever I need to run this machine (plus lights and other stuff).
    That makes very good sense, this is supposed to be a fun hobby, burning the place down would be no fun at all.

    Craig

  18. #18
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Limit the performance of the spindle? Its only rated to 6 amps

  19. #19
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    Re: VFD recommendations to suit 2.2kw 700Hz spindle

    Hi,
    its rated a 6A, what do you suppose it would draw as overload? Typically VFDs offer 200% of rated output for a few seconds.....with consequent increase in current.
    Do you want your spindle to have that sort of headroom?

    Craig

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by crjohnson View Post
    Limit the performance of the spindle? Its only rated to 6 amps
    Induction motors as well are often rated for 250% overload even, which is also a much more inefficient operating condition due to saturation effects usually kicking in around there and so you may draw 300% on the VFD input. Typically the VFD will have a setting and a hard programmed limit though and 200% would be the default such.

    PF in inverters driving motors is also related to the motor itself. Even though the inverter is going AC-DC-PsuedoAC the PF is an oscillation of current that is at the motor main frequency and without PFC circuitry on the input side or chonky filters it will pass this harmonic back onto the AC input as a variable load through the rectifier.

    EDIT* Line reactors are one such chonky filter

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