[dmauch]

I have been really disappointed in the lack of progress with Gmax and the cnc tool kit. Recently, my son told me about fusion 360 from autodesk. Right now the base version that you can get a 1 year free subscription has a very good Cad portion. I haven't tried the CAM portion but I was told that it will do 3+2 axis machining. The ultimate version will do 5 axis simultaneously. I am starting to learn the software and hope to do some video's of my 5 axis maching using mach3.

Dan Mauch

[daniellyall]

the free version is ultimate, it will do 3 + 2 indexing, it will do a limited 3+2 simultaneously by the end of the year 2 tool path types. if you run Mach3 it has a 4th wrapping function, just ask and I can send you the info on it

[109jb]

On top of that it is free for hobbyists enthusiasts, and start up companies making less than $100,000 per year.

[ger21]

Some of the original Ultimate features will be extra cost options for those that didn't buy into the Ultimate version when it was available.
This includes wrapped 4th axis and several 5 axis options.
I'm assuming the native 4th axis wrapping will be far more powerful than the wrapping post processor you're referring to.

Am I correct in assuming that there is no 5 axis support in Fusion at this time? I haven't really played with the CAM yet, and didn't see any 5 axis when I just looked.

[dmauch]

Some of the original Ultimate features will be extra cost options for those that didn't buy into the Ultimate version when it was available.
This includes wrapped 4th axis and several 5 axis options.
I'm assuming the native 4th axis wrapping will be far more powerful than the wrapping post processor you're referring to.

Am I correct in assuming that there is no 5 axis support in Fusion at this time? I haven't really played with the CAM yet, and didn't see any 5 axis when I just looked.

Here is a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdXGNZvW7vY . I emailed them and asked them what software they were using. They said it was fusion360 base version.


Dan Mauch

[arizonavideo]

great little mill.

[daniellyall]

ger contuse 5th will be Ultimate, there is 5th axis in review now what work quite well,(may or may not stay in basic they have not decided) 3 + 2 indexing more than likely will stay in basic 3 + 1 indexing has always been there, the wrapping function I said about is that a wrapping function, like what vectric has for V carve pro.

the wrapping function ADSK is adding is more of a contuse than wrapping, only on the tool path's that are the same in all version of HSM.

everything is up in the air somethings are going to be Ultimate only what may change, what is on the road map page as showing Ultimate only or cost extra may change, it depends on the user's, and how well they can get the code working. if they get the solver fixed soon, everything else will change quite fast, that's one of the hold ups.

the cam has corner rounding comp that makes Mach3 work so much better, I have it set to the speed that Mach3 run's with no problems on my big machine, it's a visible improvement

[dammachines]

Here is a link <removed>I emailed them and asked them what software they were using. They said it was fusion360 base version.


Dan Mauch

Dan,

If you go to the Pocket NC YouTube channel where they take you step by step on how to cut the impeller with Fusion 360, you can see that they are clearly just doing 3D + indexing of the part. No true 5-axis tool paths. Supposed to be there eventually as everyone else said, but those 5 axis Pocket NC demo videos have to be programmed using some other CAM software.

Dave

[dmauch]

comments
Dan Mauch
Dan Mauch2 weeks ago
Is that the base version or the 5 axis fusion 360 ultimate?
Reply
Pocket NC
Pocket NC2 weeks ago
The base version can do 3+2, which is what we used in the video. The full 5 axis version isn't out yet but should be soon!
Reply

[yohudi]

Hi There,

An interesting question.. and fairly easy to answer..

I've been following the development of Fusion 360 for some time.... As a long-term 3D Studio and Gmax user (since 3D Studio 1.0 MSDOS version), it's clear that Fusion is very much based on development of the core functions that all of the Autodesk windows-based products are based on. There have been many interesting changes... but in essence.. all of the functionality required to generate and process simultaneous 5 axis toolpaths for all configurations... have been there for more than a decade... they just have not been put in place...

Fusion 360 has a couple of important issues as far as the hobbyist is concerned. It's actual audience is those generating $100K+ per year from CNC business activity, hobbyists are just along for the ride, in a limited way... afaik, the standard 3 axis version of Fusion will remain free. However, a 3+2 and / or Simultaneous 5-axis version of Fusion requires payment of $300(US) per year subscription.. I could be wrong.. it is a while since I looked at the Fusion user license .. things may have changed. If this remains the case.. trunnion users would need to stump up $300 annually or revert to at worst XYZ, or at best 3+2 function only (if one of the previous poster is correct).

Also Fusion 360 needs to integrate 5 axis function seamlessly, with existing Industrial level hardware and fixtures etc... This tends to complicate and extend the development process. For Autodesk to see return from their investment, functions required by the $100k+ user must be put in place as a tested and functional feature-set, at the time they are included. If not, the $100K+ user-base will just stick with what they use already, until such times as this is demonstrated to be the case.

So for the trunnion hobbyist... while it might not look as pretty... and will require a little more effort to learn, I think gmax / cnctoolkit will remain a viable option for a least the immediate future. I would add that in respect of learning curve.. if you know gmax / 3D Studio MAX this is less than the effort associated with learning much again from scratch in Autodesk Fusion 360.

In respect of gmax and cnctoolkit development.... I have mentioned to you previously.... some time ago now... that there has been much in the way of development... in fact an entirely new way to address use of these tools has been created... for all major machine configurations, including trunnion. There are a couple of issues I still need to work out to my own satisfaction. Serious ill health has delayed this work but even were every bug ironed out, I will not release the current developments until...

1. I am fully satisfied with it myself
2. I can prevent, to the greatest degree I am able, the theft of intellectual property.

For me the second point is the more important...

In the past I have seen much in the way of abuse of Rab Gordon's work on cnctoolkit and his generosity in making the source maxscript freely available (Rab Gordon would not say this.. he is too good natured... but I have no problem making this clear). I've also seen similar lack of appreciation of the resources hosted at cnc4free.org homepage which I have nontheless continued to leave online. In light of this, can there be any real surprise at reluctance to extend trust to the CNC hobbyist community in respect of current developments ??? As I have told you previously... when there is new in respect of release.. I will be in touch...

I would also point out that gmax is free.... cnctoolkit source is freely available. There are support resources available to a far greater degree than when I started using cnctoolkit... along with demonstrations that success is possible with existing versions, I put this up at the cnctoolkit group... I thought you were aware of these demonstrations..... There's nothing to stop any of the current user base from engaging in development... it has been performed in the past.. If things are moving a bit slow for you.... you might like to give it a go yourself...


Hope this helps

[ger21]

afaik, the standard 3 axis version of Fusion will remain free. However, a 3+2 and / or Simultaneous 5-axis version of Fusion requires payment of $300(US) per year subscription.. I could be wrong.

My take on this is that 3+2 and simultaneous will be extra cost options on top of the $300/year. Whether or not they'll even offer it to those using Fusion for free is up to Autodesk.

- - - Updated - - -

afaik, the standard 3 axis version of Fusion will remain free. However, a 3+2 and / or Simultaneous 5-axis version of Fusion requires payment of $300(US) per year subscription.. I could be wrong.

My take on this is that 3+2 and simultaneous will be extra cost options on top of the $300/year. Whether or not they'll even offer it to those using Fusion for free is up to Autodesk.

[yohudi]

My take on this is that 3+2 and simultaneous will be extra cost options on top of the $300/year. Whether or not they'll even offer it to those using Fusion for free is up to Autodesk.

Hi again,

I've taken another look at the Fusion 360 licensing today... There have been considerable changes since I tested things out about 18 months ago.... and you are absolutely right... Free sub $100k (US) turnover usage beyond the 30 day trial period has already been rescinded....

Fusion 360 licensing has now reverted to the general Autodesk model. Free usage is limited to students or educators.. as per the situation with 3D Studio MAX, Maya etc... ALL other use is subject to $300 to $480 (US) annual subscription, once the 30 day free trial period is over... depending on all at once or monthly payment options.

When XYZ version was available for free, subscription rate for 3+2 operation was $300 annually.... nobody would go back to XYZ and still pay the $300 charged previously for 3+2.. so I would expect 3+2 would be included with the initial subscription deal.

For simultaneous 5-axis I would anticipate that subscription rate would at least double.. to a minimum of $600-$720 US annually... reflecting the previous premium applied to 3+2 upgrade from standard XYZ.... maybe more.. depending on how far Autodesk think they can push things....

This suggests that there will be a role for gmax and cnctoolkit (or derivatives) for some time to come...

Hope this helps

[daniellyall]

yohudi your very wrong at the moment the licences has not changed at all. it's $300 us for the base fusion and it is $1200 for ultimate, it free for under 100k total revenue, it's free for educators and students.

the Hobby license at this time is the same as ultimate same with educators and students.

the way it is at the moment is all the same ultimate will be separate again when the 5th stuff is working you can do 3 + 2 and 3 +1 indexing today on all versions. the + 2 is in trial for using a B head.

they have not decided if the $300 version is going to be 3 axis only or 4 axis they may leave the indexing in the $300 version and ultimate will have all the simultaneous stuff in it, but the $300 version may have 4th axis simultaneous in it, you can do 4th axis subbing anyway in fusion, it is done in the post processor its 6 lines of code.

[ger21]

Except it doesn't appear that you can buy Ultimate anywhere?? Do you have a link with a $1200 price?
I'm guessing that they'll bring it back when they add those features?

[daniellyall]

yep after getting told of a few times they pulled it so it only shows the $300us version, $25 a month the web guys get hammered all the time for their simple oversights and bad wording.

the early bird guys are safe. and if you won't Ultimate you just contact the ADSK sales team, they don't advertise this as the Ultimate stuff may still be a year away.

[yohudi]

Hi there,

I stand corrected... (only the Pope claims infallability... I am a mere mortal and bound to err on occaision). You would think Autodesk would make things a little clearer in the licensing info....

I believe there's far too much confusion because of the 'Ultimate' and 'Standard' arrangement... it causes many issues. For example, the unavoidable subscriber renewal process can revert Fusion 360 'Ultimate' to Fusion 360 'Standard' without any kind of warning or notification. This is known and is supposedly being looked into.... In the meantime, there's little to no instruction from Autodesk re: means to revert back to 'Ultimate' if you are affected by this (as I know from personal experience). How do new, unfamiliar users, get to know about this problem that's potentially around the corner??

Tool Orientation Missing - Autodesk Community

I installed hobbyist 'Ultimate' mid 2015... so I'm not sure 'early bird' adoption makes that much of a difference, unless by this you mean 'early bird' buy in to a paid subscription. Certain guarantees are provided to paid subscribers, but it's unclear if the same policy is applied to free 'hobbyist' use.

Another problem caused entirely by the Ultimate / Standard thing is that users are specifically told that Ultimate has been incorporated into Standard and it quite clearly hasn't. 3 +2 in Standard and 3 +2 in Ultimate are very different workflows... It's all unnecessarily confusing....

IMHO Fusion suffers from a problem evidenced by several Autodesk updates / offerings in recent years. Software like 3D Studio (the app I know best) lost much in the way of purity, and become unnecessarily complex.... There's often a vastly expanding feature set, not fully implemented or stable, most of which will never apply to the majority of users.... in the meantime.. important features (such as simultaneous 5 axis) .... keep getting pushed further and further down the development timeline.... as of September 2016 Fusion 360 CAM is still waiting for the level of 5 axis toolpathing functionality that already exists in the gmax / cnctoolkit combo...

It often amazes me that someone who balks at learning gmax / cnctoolkit will opt into something many times more complex... that in fact can't yet do the job... I think it has something to do with what's seen as 'fashionable' rather than what has been demonstrated to be functional. Hence I think that it will still be some time before it's wise to propose Fusion 360 as realistic replacement for cnctoolkit / gmax. It simply cannot do the job, regardless of the hype..

Also re: Pocket NC...

This machine is often incorrectly advanced as an example of full Fusion 360 5 axis functionality.. It's not..... This isn't to say it doesn't leverage limitations to produce undeniably good results.... When you buy into a pocketNC machine.. you get a Fusion 360 subscription and dedicated post-processor as part of the deal.... but this still only allows 3+2 usage....

Hope this helps

[daniellyall]

the only thing fusion can not do is simultaneous 4th and 5th.

there is no official Ultimate, but people who have Ultimate get to keep it if on renew it goes back you contact them they will put it back to how it should be.

earlybird get Ultimate for a long time.

the link you put up curtis solved that one.

if people wont to know something you ask on the fusion forum the staff and EE are very happy to help.

does gmax / cnctoolkit do simultaneous 4th and 5th I have never looked into it

[ger21]

IMHO Fusion suffers from a problem evidenced by several Autodesk updates / offerings in recent years. Software like 3D Studio (the app I know best) lost much in the way of purity, and become unnecessarily complex.... There's often a vastly expanding feature set, not fully implemented or stable, most of which will never apply to the majority of users.... in the meantime.. important features (such as simultaneous 5 axis) .... keep getting pushed further and further down the development timeline.... as of September 2016 Fusion 360 CAM is still waiting for the level of 5 axis toolpathing functionality that already exists in the gmax / cnctoolkit combo...

There's been a big issue made of this recently on the Fusion forum.
Too many new features and without fixing stability and core usability.
Autodesk seems to be listening, although it took them a while to actually get it?

I installed hobbyist 'Ultimate' mid 2015... so I'm not sure 'early bird' adoption makes that much of a difference,

What he's referring to was a special offer that AutoDesk had two years ago. Up until mid December 2014, you could get Fusion 360 Ultimate for the standard price of $300/year, and you'd be locked in for life at that price, I took advantage of that, and my account says that I have Fusion 360 Ultimate.
When Ultimate was "eliminated", Autodesk gave us the 2nd year for free. As long as I keep my subscription current, I should always have all features of Fusion 360 for $300/year.
I do expect Ultimate with it's separate pricing to return at some point.
I just wonder if Standard users will be able to pay for some of the advanced features A La Carte?

[dmauch]

I disagree that fusion 360 would not replace Gmax and tool kit. I have been playing with fusion 360 and have been impressed with the improvements made. There is tremendous support for Fusion 360 and AFAIK there has been no improvement in the tool kit in over a year for 5 axis trunnion table. Gmax is still at version 1.2 and was designed more for gaming programmers. Fusion 360 have a lot a video that help learn the software.. It is more CAD oriented that the grahics oreientation of Gmax. I don't know of amn update to GMAX. I have signed up for fusion 360 beginners version and it works well. I am still learning it. The CAM portion of Fusion 360 is a thousand times better than version 4.34 of the tool kit script. My I5 cpu occasionally get hung up with Gmax and the tool kit. No problems with fusion.
I waited for a long time to see what was stated on this thread that a new version of the tool kit would be out shortly. Good thing I did not hold my breath.
I emailed the fusion 360 people and was told that yes people could order a one time month subscription just when they needed it for specific 3d project. $30 for a months use of it when they have Ultimate with simultaneously doing 5 axis on a trunnion would be worth it. Again there seems to have been no progress made on the tool kit in over a year. So fusion in hand is worth two CNC toolkits in the bushes.

Dan

[ger21]

I emailed the fusion 360 people and was told that yes people could order a one time month subscription just when they needed it for specific 3d project. $30 for a months use of it when they have Ultimate with simultaneously doing 5 axis on a trunnion would be worth it.

When the additional 5 axis features (Ultimate features) are added, expect the cost to be ~$160/month.