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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Viper Servo drives > WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now
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  1. #1
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    WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Check this out .. zero stock on the main parts i use on the Viper servo drives . This is the current state of electronics, its pretty bad .

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...p260pbf/812768

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...n20dpbf/811634

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...-30I-SO/870373

    Luckily i do have parts for some drives , and i keep searching for alternatives MosFets , but this is serious !

    Even parts like heatsink insulators and plastic spacers are either non existant or triple the price . The DSpic30F3010 was under $5 2 years ago, and now its doubled .. same with all cpu's
    Almost all the Popular CPU's by Microchip , Atmel and others have no stock .
    Is China playing games and holding back parts ? How can Microchip and other semiconductor manufacturers pay the bills of there is zero stock ?

    Larry
    Manufacturer of CNC routers and Viper Servo Drives
    www.LarkenCNC.com and www.Viperservo.com

  2. #2
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Hi,
    micro controllers and micro processors have been in very short supply for a while now.

    The break occurred with the first wave of COVID when orders for the regular uP's were cancelled by the auto industry among others, so the semiconductor fabs went on to making more profitable
    in-demand items. Now the orders for regulars uP's have rebounded there is no stock. Large manufacturers get the first of the new stocks, but they are now buying six months, a year, or more, supply
    rather than the Just-in-Time orders they used to place, which puts even greater demand on limited numbers.

    Anyone who has stocks of uP's can name their price, and like it or not that's supply and demand. If I were holding stocks you can be bound I would be trying to profit from my foresight.....
    would you not do the same?

    Is China playing games and holding back parts ?
    Unless you subscribe to the theory that China deliberately foisted COVID on the world then I'd say....no.....China is not to blame. Its true that Chinese suppliers often have supplies
    of uP's that they have bought cheap off businesses selling off inventory....well now they get to profit from it. If you don't want to see them make a profit then don't buy off them
    and go without.

    As difficult as semiconductor shortage is if your in that business; the worsening global food and energy supplies are likely to put semiconductor shortages into the shade. Even if
    the energy/food shortages do not impact you directly there several billion people in the world whom are, and the result could be catastrophic for humanity.

    Craig

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larken View Post
    Almost all the Popular CPU's by Microchip , Atmel and others have no stock .
    Is China playing games and holding back parts ? How can Microchip and other semiconductor manufacturers pay the bills of there is zero stock ?

    Larry


    I reckon most are being prioritised for vehicle manufacture and heavy industry because of the shortage.

  4. #4
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by Larken View Post
    Check this out .. zero stock on the main parts i use on the Viper servo drives . This is the current state of electronics, its pretty bad .

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...p260pbf/812768

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...n20dpbf/811634

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...-30I-SO/870373

    Luckily i do have parts for some drives , and i keep searching for alternatives MosFets , but this is serious !

    Even parts like heatsink insulators and plastic spacers are either non existant or triple the price . The DSpic30F3010 was under $5 2 years ago, and now its doubled .. same with all cpu's
    Almost all the Popular CPU's by Microchip , Atmel and others have no stock .
    Is China playing games and holding back parts ? How can Microchip and other semiconductor manufacturers pay the bills of there is zero stock ?

    Larry
    This is what happens when you mess with the Chinese imports, they are in control, everyone thought Trumps plan was great, this has caused many problems across the board, with very little chip manufacturing in the USA , they are playing games like you say
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    micro controllers and micro processors have been in very short supply for a while now.

    The break occurred with the first wave of COVID when orders for the regular uP's were cancelled by the auto industry among others, so the semiconductor fabs went on to making more profitable
    in-demand items. Now the orders for regulars uP's have rebounded there is no stock. Large manufacturers get the first of the new stocks, but they are now buying six months, a year, or more, supply
    rather than the Just-in-Time orders they used to place, which puts even greater demand on limited numbers.

    Anyone who has stocks of uP's can name their price, and like it or not that's supply and demand. If I were holding stocks you can be bound I would be trying to profit from my foresight.....
    would you not do the same?



    Unless you subscribe to the theory that China deliberately foisted COVID on the world then I'd say....no.....China is not to blame. Its true that Chinese suppliers often have supplies
    of uP's that they have bought cheap off businesses selling off inventory....well now they get to profit from it. If you don't want to see them make a profit then don't buy off them
    and go without.

    As difficult as semiconductor shortage is if your in that business; the worsening global food and energy supplies are likely to put semiconductor shortages into the shade. Even if
    the energy/food shortages do not impact you directly there several billion people in the world whom are, and the result could be catastrophic for humanity.

    Craig
    A good story with very little substance

    It has nothing to do with Covid that is just an excuse, the USA and many countries messed with the Chinese imports, this is what has caused a chain reaction and the lack of supply, you can get anything you want if you go direct to the Chinese manufacture. and can import it.

    Yes, they are holding the world to ransom since countries messed with the import tariffs

    If you have a food shortage problem in NZ, then this is your own fault, energy is a different story, that has for ever been a high cost problem in NZ, there are many resourceful people in NZ that make it happen though
    Mactec54

  6. #6
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Hi,
    China actually manufacturers very few semiconductors. The CCP has tried to foster semiconductor manufacturing but have largely failed, many of their semiconductor companies are
    going broke. The US has blocked the sale of ASML EUV lithography machines to China which has excluded China from getting in on the semiconductor revolution.

    Yes, they are holding the world to ransom since countries messed with the import tariffs
    BS, you can still get anything you like form China, excepting that COVID has shut the place down, and then you can't ship stuff out even when you do buy it, its not because the
    Chinese are refusing to sell or any other rubbish. They want to sell and make money just as much as they ever did.

    Bottom line is that the semiconductor shortage it not the Chinese's fault.

    Trump may have started the import tariffs which is bad for global trade but Biden has not wound them back, in fact he has been codifying it, and making it permanent. But the tariffs
    have little to do with semiconductors.

    The main producers of semiconductors, the high end sub 14nm stuff, are TSMC in Taiwan and Samsung in Korea. The US has just woken up to the fact that this arrangement leaves them vulnerable
    and are now spending up big time to get semiconductor manufacturing back onto US soil. Its going to take a while.

    If you have a food shortage problem in NZ, then this is your own fault,
    For crying out loud Matec, are you being deliberately obtuse....did I ever say NZ is facing a food shortage? Even someone as insular as you must also have heard that hundreds of millions if not billions of people
    in the Middle East, North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa are already in a food shortage. Is there anything wrong with:

    and the result could be catastrophic for humanity.
    given that millions could starve to death? Or even the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians bombed out of their homes already? Honestly, a semiconductor shortage is small beer compared to the threats faced
    by millions and the disaster that has already befallen many.

    Craig

  7. #7
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by Larken View Post
    Check this out .. zero stock on the main parts i use on the Viper servo drives . This is the current state of electronics, its pretty bad .

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...p260pbf/812768

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...n20dpbf/811634

    https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/d...-30I-SO/870373

    Luckily i do have parts for some drives , and i keep searching for alternatives MosFets , but this is serious !

    Even parts like heatsink insulators and plastic spacers are either non existant or triple the price . The DSpic30F3010 was under $5 2 years ago, and now its doubled .. same with all cpu's
    Almost all the Popular CPU's by Microchip , Atmel and others have no stock .
    Is China playing games and holding back parts ? How can Microchip and other semiconductor manufacturers pay the bills of there is zero stock ?

    Larry
    Yep, Add FPGAs, optocouplers, almost all switching power supply chips, almost all Ethernet chips and even lowly Zener diodes... Its a real supply chain nightmare.

    I don't see any evidence that it is related to anything China has done as this affects many chips with no processing path through China.

    As a matter of fact I am happy China is manufacturing chips, as we were able to move some FPGA designs from Xilinx (35-99 week lead times) to Efinix (in my hot hands now)
    If we waited for Xilinx, Lattice or Microchip, we would basically have been out-of business for 6 Months to a year...

  8. #8
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Hi,
    as of 2021 the total value of Chinese semiconductors ( discrete and ICs) approached 10% of the global total, just pipping Taiwan.

    China has a lesser share of ICs because they are denied access to high end lithography equipment, so for them to have 10% of global share means that the lower value discrete semiconductors
    are being made in China in huge volumes. The best data I can find (SIA Semiconductor Industry Association) on that breakdown is from 2016. At that time they held 25% of the global share of discrete
    components, and I would guess even higher fraction now.

    As a matter of fact I am happy China is manufacturing chips,
    Matter of fact neither am I. I don't have any problem buying Chinese made semis. I cant really fathom the wisdom of the US banning sales of EUV lithography machines to China, I mean if you
    don't want to buy Chinese parts you don't have to. If the Ukraine crisis has taught us anything is that no country or industry should make itself absolutely dependent on any other country
    or industry. I don't see China dominating the market unless we let them. I think the US has suddenly realised that they have let other countries dominate the semi manufacturing market
    and feel vulnerable. The Chinese did not do that, but rather the US let it happen.

    Craig

  9. #9
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    micro controllers and micro processors have been in very short supply for a while now. ( no.. only since 2021 )
    Unless you subscribe to the theory that China deliberately foisted COVID on the world then I'd say....no.....China is not to blame.
    Craig
    Its the News that only mentions the Auto sector electronics being affected, but its any popular electronics thats it short supply now. But the shortage is affecting everything else, so its snowballing. Thats what happens when corporations put all their eggs in China's basket . They trusted a foreign communist country with controlling their factories and making their products. China cares about China , they only care about your company as long as it makes money flow into china .
    I don't think China deliberately released covid.. but i think the accidently did .
    We see China take over HongKong and soon Taiwan . And you still trust them ?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    Anyone who has stocks of uP's can name their price, and like it or not that's supply and demand. If I were holding stocks you can be bound I would be trying to profit from my foresight.....
    would you not do the same?

    Craig
    Btw, China doesn't raise the price of parts it exports.. it lowers the price. Thats how it gains the huge market share. Thats what it did with solar panels. It lowered the price so low all other manufacturers globally shut down. They now have a monopoly in world solar panel manufacturing .


    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    As difficult as semiconductor shortage is if your in that business; the worsening global food and energy supplies are likely to put semiconductor shortages into the shade. Even if
    the energy/food shortages do not impact you directly there several billion people in the world whom are, and the result could be catastrophic for humanity.
    Craig
    Yes , the worsening global situation is getting out of control . But its partly because of poor leadership and decisions by todays western governments who care more about thinking they can stop global warming ( which is impossible ) than caring about lowering fuel and food prices. Sanctioning russian oil only makes russia stronger and the rest of the world weaker. In 10 years russia will still have lots of oil and the rest of the world will be a desparate mess.
    Manufacturer of CNC routers and Viper Servo Drives
    www.LarkenCNC.com and www.Viperservo.com

  10. #10
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    This is what happens when you mess with the Chinese imports, they are in control, everyone thought Trumps plan was great, this has caused many problems across the board, with very little chip manufacturing in the USA , they are playing games like you say
    Sorry, but i can't agree with you there. Its weak policy that is causing the mess the world is on now since Trump left. Tarrifs should be heavier if they are copying or dumping products. We were already seeing companies starting to pull out of china because of china's bad business practices. But the pandemic did create a break in chinas manufacturing system that made it come to a halt. Who knows if china stocks its own parts shelves first from our factories before it says it can export. . China cares about China first.. like any country does.
    Manufacturer of CNC routers and Viper Servo Drives
    www.LarkenCNC.com and www.Viperservo.com

  11. #11
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by PCW_MESA View Post
    Yep, Add FPGAs, optocouplers, almost all switching power supply chips, almost all Ethernet chips and even lowly Zener diodes... Its a real supply chain nightmare.

    I don't see any evidence that it is related to anything China has done as this affects many chips with no processing path through China.

    As a matter of fact I am happy China is manufacturing chips, as we were able to move some FPGA designs from Xilinx (35-99 week lead times) to Efinix (in my hot hands now)
    If we waited for Xilinx, Lattice or Microchip, we would basically have been out-of business for 6 Months to a year...
    But really it wouldn't it be better if factories were spread around the world in numerous ( non communist ) countries instead of putting all your eggs in one ( very powerful ) countries basket ? I'm sure many business executives realize now that was a terrible idea . Remember NOT ONE economist saw the real estate crash of 2009 coming. These people are not that smart . The promise of $$$$ tends to make people make bad decisions.
    Manufacturer of CNC routers and Viper Servo Drives
    www.LarkenCNC.com and www.Viperservo.com

  12. #12
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Hi,

    China cares about China , they only care about your company as long as it makes money flow into china .
    If you substitued 'US' for China or 'Germany' for China , or any other country would the sense be the same and just as accurate?

    We see China take over HongKong and soon Taiwan . And you still trust them ?
    Its not about trusting them, its about buying their products. If you buy 100% and rely on China for supply then you and your business is at grave risk, but if you buy 10% from China, and 10% from the US
    etc then if one topples over is not so bad.

    Btw, China doesn't raise the price of parts it exports.. it lowers the price. Thats how it gains the huge market share. Thats what it did with solar panels. It lowered the price so low all other manufacturers globally shut down. They it has a monopoly.
    Overall I would agree, but don't they deserve that 'monopoly'? They earned it by making good products at best possible price. If I made solar panels at a cheaper price then I would come to dominate the market.....is that
    not market forces in action?. There are lots of things I don't like about Chinese policies, but if they gain market share by out-competing other countries you cant blame them. If you don't want China to dominate
    the solar panel market then buy US made....and pay the price.

    Sanctioning russian oil only makes russia stronger and the rest of the world weaker. In 10 years russia will still have lots of oil and the rest of the world will be a desparate mess.
    Thats quite a prediction, and you may be right. My prediction is that Russia will suffer economically with resultant hardships for Russian people even if they have lots of oil. I suspect you are right
    about the rest of the world, a 'desperate mess' might be underestimating it.

    Craig

  13. #13
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Hi,

    But really it wouldn't it be better if factories were spread around the world in numerous ( non communist ) countries instead of putting all your eggs in one ( very powerful ) countries basket ?
    But have we? China makes about 10% ( as of 2021 according to SIA) of the world supply of semiconductors.....that does not constitute 'putting all your eggs in one (communist) basket'.

    Tarrifs should be heavier if they are copying or dumping products. We were already seeing companies starting to pull out of china because of china's bad business practices.
    Overall I dislike tariffs, all countries, developed and developing alike, rely on global trade for the import of resources when they cannot be had locally and markets to sell to. Tariffs and other
    protection mechanisms stifle free and fair trade to the detriment of everyone.

    Are you sure that using tariffs as a punishment is the right approach?. I would agree the world need mechanisms to pressure countries like China into following the rules but I think tariffs
    are not the way to go. I think China has had a wake up call as Western nations have clubbed together to put sanctions on Russia. Sanctions hurt but the alternative is to let Russia away
    with murder and atrocity. Businesses pulling out of China is voting with their feet, and good on them.

    Craig

  14. #14
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by Larken View Post
    Sorry, but i can't agree with you there. Its weak policy that is causing the mess the world is on now since Trump left. Tarrifs should be heavier if they are copying or dumping products. We were already seeing companies starting to pull out of china because of china's bad business practices. But the pandemic did create a break in chinas manufacturing system that made it come to a halt. Who knows if china stocks its own parts shelves first from our factories before it says it can export. . China cares about China first.. like any country does.
    You really don't have a clue, the only dumping that was a problem was steel, that needed to have some control, once that started it snow balled into many other products, it will take years for it to be back to normal. There is nothing wrong with China we have factories there and they are doing well. China found other markets to take what others put high tariffs on and now you are whining that you can't get supplies
    Mactec54

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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Here are a few snips that should put most of this to rest, this is saying how it is and why.

    The supply and value chains, semiconductor firms are trying to secure their manufacturing processes by stockpiling supplies or relocating production facilities—disrupting the industry at large.

    With semiconductors at the heart of U.S.-China strategic and technological competition, the industry continues to experience a range of protective tariff and non-tariff measures that threaten production and competitiveness of the industry. This FP Insider Report analyzes the evolving strategic economic relationship among China, Taiwan, and the United States as it pertains to semiconductors, examines the growing economic and security challenges that key private and public sector actors within the industry face

    International trade disputes are straining the industry’s supply and value chains while the battle between the United States and China over tech supremacy risks splintering the supply chain further, contributing to technological fragmentation and significant disruption in international commerce.

    Caught between these global superpowers is the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation (TSMC), a leading manufacturer in the industry, owning 51.5 percent of the market and producing the most advanced chips in the world (10 nanometers or smaller). TSMC supports both American and Chinese firms such as Apple, Qualcomm, Broadcom, and Xilinx Etc.

    The below snip for those that don't think China is a major player in the semiconductor supply chain this is only up to 2018
    Mactec54

  16. #16
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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You really don't have a clue, the only dumping that was a problem was steel ..
    Ya.. Steel and almost ever other product they have copied and sell back cheap. Who invented the PC and all the circuit boards that go with it ? .. not china. Who invented Telecom ( nortel technolgy ) ..not china . Who invented all the cnc , arduino , motors , turbo chargers, , clones of honda motorcycles , clones of spindles , ... not china and im sure there are millions more ... Dumping is when products are sold for less than the real cost to build.
    I have a friend that went to china to buy machinery. And they told him any price would be ok, because the government kicks in the rest on every sale.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Here are a few snips that should put most of this to rest, this is saying how it is and why.

    The supply and value chains, semiconductor firms are trying to secure their manufacturing processes by stockpiling supplies or relocating production facilities—disrupting the industry at large.

    With semiconductors at the heart of U.S.-China strategic and technological competition, the industry continues to experience a range of protective tariff and non-tariff measures that threaten production and competitiveness of the industry. This FP Insider Report analyzes the evolving strategic economic relationship among China, Taiwan, and the United States as it pertains to semiconductors, examines the growing economic and security challenges that key private and public sector actors within the industry face

    International trade disputes are straining the industry’s supply and value chains while the battle between the United States and China over tech supremacy risks splintering the supply chain further, contributing to technological fragmentation and significant disruption in international commerce.

    Caught between these global superpowers is the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation (TSMC), a leading manufacturer in the industry, owning 51.5 percent of the market and producing the most advanced chips in the world (10 nanometers or smaller). TSMC supports both American and Chinese firms such as Apple, Qualcomm, Broadcom, and Xilinx Etc.

    The below snip for those that don't think China is a major player in the semiconductor supply chain this is only up to 2018
    By your graph it looks like China is THE massive dominant player ... and soon to invade and take over Taiwan's production too .. so ?.
    My Leadwell V40 VMC is Taiwanese and far superior to any Chinese mill ... but soon they will be property of China. So china will have a Quailty products and a cheap products .. a full line

    I'm not here to bash China . They do what they want .. which is what they do . We need to worry about our selves .

    With the price of gas skyrocketing and Trucking costs pushing food costs and everything else . I'm just wondering what are peoples predictions of the next few years ?
    Manufacturer of CNC routers and Viper Servo Drives
    www.LarkenCNC.com and www.Viperservo.com

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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by Larken View Post
    Ya.. Steel and almost ever other product they have copied and sell back cheap. Who invented the PC and all the circuit boards that go with it ? .. not china. Who invented Telecom ( nortel technolgy ) ..not china . Who invented all the cnc , arduino , motors , turbo chargers, , clones of honda motorcycles , clones of spindles , ... not china and im sure there are millions more ... Dumping is when products are sold for less than the real cost to build.
    I have a friend that went to china to buy machinery. And they told him any price would be ok, because the government kicks in the rest on every sale.



    By your graph it looks like China is THE massive dominant player ... and soon to invade and take over Taiwan's production too .. so ?.
    My Leadwell V40 VMC is Taiwanese and far superior to any Chinese mill ... but soon they will be property of China. So china will have a Quailty products and a cheap products .. a full line

    I'm not here to bash China . They do what they want .. which is what they do . We need to worry about our selves .

    With the price of gas skyrocketing and Trucking costs pushing food costs and everything else . I'm just wondering what are peoples predictions of the next few years ?
    Your friend is full of Bs it's not like that at all, they saw him coming a mile away doubled the price and told him to make an offer, if he brought the machine, they still made more than what the original price was, this is how they do it you have to know there marketing strategy.

    Taiwan does build some good machines, Korea builds machines also that are as good if not better, the casting for your machine came from China and the Control from Japan so nothing special about your machine it just a a basic CNC mill

    Some more snips just for you, you hurt their exports they build an even stronger base

    China may have headaches to deal with when it comes to the semiconductor space, be the general shortage issues or U.S. sanctions, but that isn't stopping the country from hitting record-high integrated circuit (IC) production figures.

    According to the South China Morning Post, China has produced 203.6 billion chips within the first seven months of 2021. That's a 47.3% year-over-year boost compared to the same time in 2020. Just in July, Chinese semiconductor companies managed 31.6 billion units — a new monthly record.

    This is all part of China's larger plan to become as technologically independent as possible amid its chipmaking war with the U.S. With over 200 billion units produced and still five months of 2021 to go, it's not hard to see the concerted effort the country is making to cut itself off from relying on the outputs of other nations.

    In order to achieve the figures it has, China has had to overcome the general resource limitations at the root of the global semiconductor shortage situation, as well as various sanctions imposed on its companies by the U.S. Said sanctions have played a role in threatening the stability and operational efficiency of various Chinese tech companies, be they Semiconductor Manufacturing International Co. (SMIC), Huawei, or one of the other Chinese businesses finding operating harder thanks to the actions of the United States.

    Taiwan’s outsized role in chipmaking has come under the spotlight as a global shortage of semiconductors forced several automakers to halt production.

    Countries including the U.S. and Germany reached out to Taiwan to help alleviate bottlenecks in the production of chips. The shortage was a result of increased demand for electronics during the Covid-19 pandemic, and was exacerbated by former President Donald Trump’s trade war with China.

    If you think fuel is expensive, take a look at NZ fuel price, the price in the USA now, would be a low price for NZ, there 2018 average fuel price was $9.28 per gallon

    People here in the USA Etc. just need to cut back on fuel usage and the price will drop, what's driving the price up right now is the demand is greater than the production, not a shortage of crude oil, there is plenty of that. if production could be cranked up then the price would drop, so the petroleum companies are at fault for this, it has nothing to do with Russia or China
    Mactec54

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    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Hi,

    By your graph it looks like China is THE massive dominant player ... and soon to invade and take over Taiwan's production too .. so ?.
    That is a matter of interpretation. This is from 2019, the annual report of the Semiconductor Industry Association based in Washington:

    https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-co...book-FINAL.pdf

    It concludes the China leads the worlds electronic manufacturing by attaining 38% consumption of global semiconductors, followed by the US at 19%.
    On page 3 of the same report reveals that semiconductor fabrication, that is the processing of silicon wafers into integrated circuits that China is a small player at 6%
    with the US head and shoulders ahead at 45%.

    The distinction is between using semiconductors to make saleable products and being able to fabricate the silicon integrated circuits. Chinese electronic manufacturing
    is highly dependent on importing integrated circuits as they do not manufacture many themselves.

    The CCP has made a national priority of trying to end this reliance on the US and others as a source of integrated circuits. SMIC is the biggest Chinese domestic manufacturer with 6B
    in revenue in 2021, compare that to Intel's 75B in the same year, 52B for Samsung and 45B for TSMC.

    For all the efforts of the Chinese they are yet to come anywhere close to competing in the conversion silicon wafers into ICs. They do produce large numbers of low value semiconductors, but the high end
    stuff they cannot compete. Not the least the US has blocked the sale of EUV lithography equipment which will stymie China's aim to produce high end semis anytime soon.

    From the same report shows that the US still and very handily leads the world in research and development of semiconductors, beating Japan and Europe combined. All that has slipped, from the US
    standpoint, is the actual fabrication, and that can be corrected. All-in-all the report shows that the US position is actually very strong indeed.

    I note also that you are concerned that if the Chinese invade Taiwan that all the facilities will fall into Chinese control. Firstly I am dubious that China for all its size could defeat Taiwan,
    they have been preparing for this war for decades. Additionally the US and Japanese commitment to the sovereign integrity of Taiwan should give China pause.
    Even were the Chinese to succeed they'll find TSMC's cupboards are bare....there won't be one single EUV machine left by then. That would not stop the disruption that the sacking
    of TMSC would cause globally, but the Chinese would never profit from it.

    Craig

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    14146

    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    That is a matter of interpretation. This is from 2019, the annual report of the Semiconductor Industry Association based in Washington:

    https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-co...book-FINAL.pdf

    It concludes the China leads the worlds electronic manufacturing by attaining 38% consumption of global semiconductors, followed by the US at 19%.
    On page 3 of the same report reveals that semiconductor fabrication, that is the processing of silicon wafers into integrated circuits that China is a small player at 6%
    with the US head and shoulders ahead at 45%.

    The distinction is between using semiconductors to make saleable products and being able to fabricate the silicon integrated circuits. Chinese electronic manufacturing
    is highly dependent on importing integrated circuits as they do not manufacture many themselves.

    The CCP has made a national priority of trying to end this reliance on the US and others as a source of integrated circuits. SMIC is the biggest Chinese domestic manufacturer with 6B
    in revenue in 2021, compare that to Intel's 75B in the same year, 52B for Samsung and 45B for TSMC.

    For all the efforts of the Chinese they are yet to come anywhere close to competing in the conversion silicon wafers into ICs. They do produce large numbers of low value semiconductors, but the high end
    stuff they cannot compete. Not the least the US has blocked the sale of EUV lithography equipment which will stymie China's aim to produce high end semis anytime soon.

    From the same report shows that the US still and very handily leads the world in research and development of semiconductors, beating Japan and Europe combined. All that has slipped, from the US
    standpoint, is the actual fabrication, and that can be corrected. All-in-all the report shows that the US position is actually very strong indeed.

    I note also that you are concerned that if the Chinese invade Taiwan that all the facilities will fall into Chinese control. Firstly I am dubious that China for all its size could defeat Taiwan,
    they have been preparing for this war for decades. Additionally the US and Japanese commitment to the sovereign integrity of Taiwan should give China pause.
    Even were the Chinese to succeed they'll find TSMC's cupboards are bare....there won't be one single EUV machine left by then. That would not stop the disruption that the sacking
    of TMSC would cause globally, but the Chinese would never profit from it.

    Craig
    You are living in some fantasy world if you think this. Intel has manufacturing in China as does every other major manufacture

    It would help to educate yourself on EUV machines, Taiwan, and South Korea both have EUV machines and sell their advanced chips to China, at a $120 million per machine no one is going to damage a machine like this, as they take years to build

    The US has nothing to do with EUV machine manufacture, a Dutch company called ASML is the only manufacture of the EUV machines.
    Mactec54

  20. #20
    Registered
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    643

    Re: WOW ! Parts are getting a Wee bit hard to find now

    Quote Originally Posted by Larken View Post
    But really it wouldn't it be better if factories were spread around the world in numerous ( non communist ) countries instead of putting all your eggs in one ( very powerful ) countries basket ? I'm sure many business executives realize now that was a terrible idea . Remember NOT ONE economist saw the real estate crash of 2009 coming. These people are not that smart . The promise of $$$$ tends to make people make bad decisions.
    Certainly more diversity is a good thing, but the "eggs" dollar wise are mainly in high density chips which are not made in China.

    Actually Chinese chip capacity for low tech legacy chips is helping in the current situation. Most shortages are in 45 nm or larger geometry parts.
    These commodity parts have a very low profit margin compared to the latest 7 nm or smaller cell phone chips for example

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