[Larry83301]

BTW, Larry83301, the Chinese COULD make the Tesla for $20,000, because the base price Tesla you indicated is based on the US scale of labour, and as we all know the Chinese use cheaper than cheap labour, so even $20,000 would be an exorbitant figure, only for export to the USA, and that would be with all the updated bells and whistles the US made model couldn't have because there are not enough mega billionaires that want a car that only goes from A to B in the 160 mile range.

Ian.

Fact is that "At the base price of $49,900 (after US Federal Tax Credit)" the Tax credit could be adjusted for cars build in the US or imported. Without the tax credit the car would be close to 10K more. I was born and raised in California, spent most of my life there, and commuted to work. Most of the time and could have used a car that went only 100 miles on a charge. Only time I drove more then that was going on vacation. Even when I lived in the LA area I didn’t need more then that. Most years I worked around the SF bay area or in the great central valley. Still didn’t need more then 100 mile range per day, and charge it over night. China couldn’t build a TESLA, Germany perhaps, they are well built cars, not like some of the crap that comes from overseas.

[handlewanker]

Yeah Larry, the tax for what it does, alters the thing fundamentally....but as a foreign import would be competing against your labour costs.....you are up against it from the start.

I never had to commute more than 20k one way at most in all my life, and in three different countries, so driving economics were not a problem, but the aspect of having a plug and play ready to go, no waste in traffic light standing, idling or warm up appeals to me, but not the price at present.

One thing's for sure, with the Petroleum Industry firmly grasping the tiller, there will never be a cheap electric car replacing the petrol ones, even the cheapest most economical small hybrid type....so although you live in "The Land Of the Free", you are in the Pet'm Industries' pocket in that respect.

From the Government's point of view, they can obtain large revenue from regulated petrol/diesel sales, but with the aspect of home solar charging abilities, regulating and obtaining revenue from the electric car users would be like chasing moonshiners in the backwoods in the dark once again....LOL.....and the only way they'd overcome that would be a road tax on electric cars that obtains revenue whether you're using it or not, or a wireless type recorder that read your mileage and billed you accordingly.

The advent of any mass movement towards an electric car would make the existing supplies of petrol products that much more expensive due to reduced useage, so you'd have reserves of energy nobody wants.....oil by products yes, unsubsidised and more expensive, but petrol and diesel, no....ironic.
Ian.

[gombault]

Hi All,
All of our problems are because of just one thing “Capitalism” The capitalist system is based on growth and it can’t exist without it.
Our Banks, Insurance companies and any form of Investment Company must take the invested money chop down the trees to create the next shopping center or residential area. For the capitalist system to continue it needs more people to buy more products, occupy more land, creating more destruction. The world human population will double in the next 50 years. Our capitalist’s leaders keep telling us it can fight poverty reduce global worming and protect all other life forms. They will do none of that, as they will be to busy creating more destructive jobs to keep them in power.
We need a new system and reason for our existence because the one we have now doesn’t work no more.

[40fordcoupe]

Hi All,
All of our problems are because of just one thing “Capitalism” The capitalist system is based on growth and it can’t exist without it.

Umm, Doesn't population growth have something to do with it? Capitalism is not perfect, but what are the viable alternatives? IMHO any type of government will fail when it is corrupt.

[christinandavid]

Population will not double in 50 years. It will peak in 20 years and then drop back down to pre-plague levels to produce the classic symmetrical bell-curve...

:wee:

DP

[handlewanker]

Oh yeah?....before the plague era there were no antibiotics, but now there are....welcome to the real world where standing room only is going to cost you double.

You don't have to have growth for Capitalism to work, just a demand for TV's, Ipads, car imports, a second holiday home, all kids going to college for degrees that mean nothing and anything else made in China and worked for in your country, wherever....LOL.....the bankers will make certain you think you are "priviliged, special, up market neighbourhood potential, middle class" and can get an "affordable" loan to get you into the Capitalist system forever.....rotflmao.....the Capitalist system is at it's zenith when you reach the top of the ladder and find it leaning against the wrong wall...commomly know as The Wall Street Crash.
Ian.

[40fordcoupe]

Population will not double in 50 years. It will peak in 20 years and then drop back down to pre-plague levels to produce the classic symmetrical bell-curve..

DP

OK what plague?

[Mariss Freimanis]

"All of our problems are because of just one thing “Capitalism” The capitalist system is based on growth and it can’t exist without it."

Name one form of life on earth that doesn't require growth to exist. Capitalism is like everything else in Nature.

Your problems are you are lazy and don't want to work for what you want.

[40fordcoupe]

New Word;

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable of leading are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or to succeed are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[jhowelb]

New Word;

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable of leading are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or to succeed are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Synonym: Obamocracy (O-baah-MOCK-ra-see)

[infantry11b]

WELL GUMBY, i don't know where you got your information about political and economic history, but i would almost bet it was a union teacher that could not be fired for being a failure.
first, capitalism is not a political movement, it is an economic one. when corporations want to take over the political system, that is when it is political, and elections will be eliminated and all representatives will be eliminated, until them - IT IS ECOMONIC.
anyone can buy stock and share in a companies wealth. they can get dividends and when a company goes broke they take the loss.
and if you don't like a company - don't buy their stock, no one forces you too. and let me ask you this GUMBY if you don't like the government is there another one you can go to in the vast market of governments - let me help you - the answer is no GUMBY.
what do you call the person who goes to work early because he can't sleep at night worrying about his job performance, when they get to work they constantly pushed to do more and more, and to work long hours with no overtime. they are forced to make the company pforitable to pay the bills, repay loans, make payroll, and make sure their market share is sufficient to justify the confidence stockholders put in the company.. they are forced to come up with new versions of a product to make it better, to make it "wanted" by the public. they are promoted and demoted just as fast, and yesterdays success means nothing because it it tomorrows they have to think about. they eat a fast lunch if any at all and breaks are just another word for talking with other people to get their job done. you call them executives.
what do you call the people who show up just a little late, expend their breaks out, leave just a little early, complain that they dont make enough and demand more, but they sleep well and don't have a care in the world about all those things that keep management awake at night. GUMBY - WE CALL THEM UNION MEMBERS.
and unless you union teacher forgot to mention it - communism, marxism, socialism, have never worked, GUMBY.

Hi All,
All of our problems are because of just one thing “Capitalism” The capitalist system is based on growth and it can’t exist without it.
Our Banks, Insurance companies and any form of Investment Company must take the invested money chop down the trees to create the next shopping center or residential area. For the capitalist system to continue it needs more people to buy more products, occupy more land, creating more destruction. The world human population will double in the next 50 years. Our capitalist’s leaders keep telling us it can fight poverty reduce global worming and protect all other life forms. They will do none of that, as they will be to busy creating more destructive jobs to keep them in power.
We need a new system and reason for our existence because the one we have now doesn’t work no more.

[christinandavid]

OK what plague?

Those big-brained bipeds crawling all over the place, you must have seen 'em.

DP

[jhowelb]

Those big-brained bipeds crawling all over the place, you must have seen 'em.

DP

Spoken like a true devotee of the Greenieweenie Church of Invertebrates First!.........must be HW's brother, he hates hominids too!

[handlewanker]

Infantry, in post # 7993 you've put it in a nutshell why Unions exist.....anyone who does some of the things you highlighted almost certainly never had Union protection to support their working conditions etc.

I've worked 50 years in the Engineering environment and in that time only 5 years were without the union umbreller to make the working day bearable, but seeing as you are a Righty, Union bashing is normal for you.....if'n the business owners and managers were to indulge in fair play, there would be no need for a Union.

BTW, I never had to work overtime for nix, EVER, forgo holidays or go without lunch breaks, and pay cuts were never even thought about, and the person who is subject to those conditions is obviously not in a Union environment.....more fool them.

In the late 90's I was "encouraged", along with some other colleagues, to become a Senior staff member, with a small increase in pay etc, but at the same time Union membership was to be relinquished....I declined, but within a month the other members who took up the offer were then told that now they had positions (?) of increased responsibilities they would have to put in the extra hours (at no pay) 5 to 7 pm weekdays and weekends too, as this was expected of them......wow, right between the eyes and without so much as a hanky to wipe your tears away...LOL.

It is a fact of life, if'n you work for someone, you are expected to make that someone richer than you, and they will try and cut your balls off in the attempt to achieve that aim, whenever and wherever thay can.

I've never seen a working class person who could be described as a Capitalist, and I've never seen a Capitalist who could be described as a worker....so Capitalists want to have all the dough but not work for it, and therein lies the problem when a nation goes to the wall.

The present Carbon Tax and mining taxation levy, the OZ government is installing, is just another way to level the playing field of economic productivity and ensure a sustainable economic environment, without which the conflict that besets all those that are in the business of exploiting the Working class can only get worse.

Al Gore was labeled a Capitalist Pig because he made 100 mill or so from promoting the hypothesis that AGW is the cause of climate change and the deteriorating weather that the World is going to have, but in actual fact he never made money by Capitalist standards of achievment, that is he never bought in the stock market any stock when it was down and sold when it was high, a Capitalistic trademark, striking when the iron was hot etc, but he did play the old shell game where his lips moved but no sound came out, so fooling the majority who watched the lips but not the hands, and in the process walked away with 100 mill of the money that was as legal as it can get.

To answer your question to Gumby....re another Government entity...yes...just put a cross on a bit of paper and stick it in a box....you don't even have to sign your name...just make a cross.....and if'n you keep the blinkers on when you make that cross you'll guarantee to get the same old same old just like you always have....nothing changes unless you make it change.
Ian.

[40fordcoupe]

Those big-brained bipeds crawling all over the place, you must have seen 'em.

DP

OK if one believes humans are a plague, wouldn't it be hypocritical to continue one's own existence?

[handlewanker]

A big brained bi-ped.....wow credentials ar last...LOL....nix on the crawling bit.
Ian.

[fizzissist]

OK if one believes humans are a plague, wouldn't it be hypocritical to continue one's own existence?

Along the same logic, if a human believes that over population of humans is the root cause of the overall world problem, then is it not hypocritical for that human to continue his own existence?? More to the point, should he even allow HIMSELF to reproduce?

...Unless of course he believes that it's YOUR offspring that's the problem.

[petersenonmain]

Some, on this forum are good reasons for retroactive abortion. LOL

[infantry11b]

unions exist to steal from what others invent and prepare and invest in. notice unions NEVER start or own a business and pay it's workers union wages.
that fat tub of lard michael moore does not pay union wages to his own people.
unions are just a business with those at the top making the most and using labor as a tool to make more money - not any different than the corporations that employ them. i say let the unions battle it out with business and if the union breaks the business they become unemployed and the business dies.

if you are upset that others make more than you - chose a better paying career path - TOO DAMN BAD.

BUT PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS ARE JUST EVIL.
BIG GOVERNMENT NEVER WORKS AND NEITHER DOES SOCIALISM.
EVENUTALLY YOU RUN OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES MONEY!
THEN THE ONLY THING LEFT IS GOOD OLD FASHIONED GLOBAL WAR.
THAT IS THE END RESULT OF UNIONS CONTROLLING GOVERNMENT.

Infantry, in post # 7993 you've put it in a nutshell why Unions exist.....anyone who does some of the things you highlighted almost certainly never had Union protection to support their working conditions etc.

I've worked 50 years in the Engineering environment and in that time only 5 years were without the union umbreller to make the working day bearable, but seeing as you are a Righty, Union bashing is normal for you.....if'n the business owners and managers were to indulge in fair play, there would be no need for a Union.

BTW, I never had to work overtime for nix, EVER, forgo holidays or go without lunch breaks, and pay cuts were never even thought about, and the person who is subject to those conditions is obviously not in a Union environment.....more fool them.

In the late 90's I was "encouraged", along with some other colleagues, to become a Senior staff member, with a small increase in pay etc, but at the same time Union membership was to be relinquished....I declined, but within a month the other members who took up the offer were then told that now they had positions (?) of increased responsibilities they would have to put in the extra hours (at no pay) 5 to 7 pm weekdays and weekends too, as this was expected of them......wow, right between the eyes and without so much as a hanky to wipe your tears away...LOL.

It is a fact of life, if'n you work for someone, you are expected to make that someone richer than you, and they will try and cut your balls off in the attempt to achieve that aim, whenever and wherever thay can.

I've never seen a working class person who could be described as a Capitalist, and I've never seen a Capitalist who could be described as a worker....so Capitalists want to have all the dough but not work for it, and therein lies the problem when a nation goes to the wall.

The present Carbon Tax and mining taxation levy, the OZ government is installing, is just another way to level the playing field of economic productivity and ensure a sustainable economic environment, without which the conflict that besets all those that are in the business of exploiting the Working class can only get worse.

Al Gore was labeled a Capitalist Pig because he made 100 mill or so from promoting the hypothesis that AGW is the cause of climate change and the deteriorating weather that the World is going to have, but in actual fact he never made money by Capitalist standards of achievment, that is he never bought in the stock market any stock when it was down and sold when it was high, a Capitalistic trademark, striking when the iron was hot etc, but he did play the old shell game where his lips moved but no sound came out, so fooling the majority who watched the lips but not the hands, and in the process walked away with 100 mill of the money that was as legal as it can get.

To answer your question to Gumby....re another Government entity...yes...just put a cross on a bit of paper and stick it in a box....you don't even have to sign your name...just make a cross.....and if'n you keep the blinkers on when you make that cross you'll guarantee to get the same old same old just like you always have....nothing changes unless you make it change.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Huh, Infantry, you sound just like one of those dark satanic mill employer types that grind the workers down 'cos they're too stupid to adopt modern methods....in that case I can quite imagine why you have a fear of any organised labour movement......better confrontation than consultation is the attitude in your case, and I've known more manager types who have been forced to move on 'cos they chose to confront instead of consult when Unionism was in the ring.

With the ranting you now fall to, you'd do good on the stage as a side show to the main event.....there's one leaving town right now....why'nt yo'all be on it.....get a life for krise sake.....Union bashing went out in the 90's in most countries when legislation curtailed the actions of the more militant unions.

On that hairy subject of population control, nobody wants to have to offend the Pope when the.... "go forth and multiply" is part of your religeous belief, but overpopulation can give you more than a pain in the arse too, and the Pope won't come and cull the excess mouths that now are just too many mouths to feed, clothe and house.
Ian.