[ynnek]

Today I acquired two Gerber Sabre 4x4 router tables. One has the full vacuum table, the other is missing the vacuum pump. Both have control cabinets and cables, but, no computer for the Artpath software. There were also boxes of spare parts, two Motherboards and some other cards. Two high frequency spindles for on, the other has a router installed. I got these with the intent of replacing the controls with Mach 3, UCCNC, or Acorn setup.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
can you post a pic of the machines, to get an idea of size and so on.

I've used Mach4 and an Ethernet SmoothStepper for 8.5 years, and Mach3 before that. All development on Mach3 ceased 8.5 years ago and not withstanding that it works
and has a large user base it is obsolete. Mach4 is light years ahead.

Mach4 and UCCNC are very similar to each other in terms of performance, price and usability. Mach4 possibly has a slight edge in being customizable and has a good
screen editor for 'making your own look and feel', if that is what you want.

It rather depends on what motors, be they servos or steppers, as to what sort of control software you want. I would suggest assess and identify what you have first, and then start
doing some research and making decisions.

Craig

[RaderSidetrack]

ynnek did post a photo, but due to server problem it did not show up at the Zone. I retrieved it from IndustryArena, rotated it to the correct orientation, and reposted here:

[ynnek]

I will take more pics tomorrow or so. I will definitely part out the OEM components. I have no intention installing 3 phase into my shop.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
well it certainly looks like a substantial machine, and worth investing some money to get it productive. Were it a hobby machine you budget would be commensurately smaller.

Whether you require three phase is determined by the parts already fitted, particularly the spindle/spindles and VFD. Identify those and that will give you a clue.
Its not impossible that if the machine is three phase that the servos and/or power supplies are 400VAC. Is this a US made machine it could well be that
three phase is still 230VAC. Here in New Zealand our single phase is 240VAC and out three phase is 415VAC.

If you do genuinely require three phase then you might have to rethink the approach. There are alternatives, but they all seem to be expensive.

Do some more digging.

Craig

[ynnek]

I have already verified the 3 phase components. I will store these and rebuild them several hundred miles from where I live. I am building out my stepson's barn. Half apartment and half workshop. Once I get the apartment portion finished, I will refurb the machines. My plan is to leave Memphis, TN and semi-retire, down in lower Alabama. These machines, as well as my 3D printers and my Shaper Origin will give my wife and I the income in need to live modestly.

[catahoula]

Now what? You probably only need one, I'll take the other off your hands

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
so what are the three phase components?

You'll have to get a single to three phase converter OR replace those components with single phase components. Knowing what they are will determine what the costs
are likely to be.

Craig

[ynnek]

The 3 phase components are the spindle and the vacuum pump. I have to go get the model number of the vfd and research it. I read on another forum, the user had a 10hp ATC spindle and the VFD converted single phase to 3 phase. I have the 7hp spindle, manual tool change model. The servos are a different story and what I have found out is they don't work with step /direction commands. Someone can correct me if that is incorrect. I have nema34 steppers which can run on 110vac on 120vac / 220vac power supplies. The power supplies for my dc servo kits are 220vac, but single phase. I have two 220vac spindles. One air cooled, manual tool change, RR25, and one water cooled, Blurry Customs ATC ER25 or ER30.I have 24vdc proximity sensors. I have 4 different Mach3 breakout boards. Two generic and two with CNC4PC C-32. One with parallel cable connection and one with a USB Smooth Stepper. Either C-32 or both can be connected to UCCNC if I want to go that route. There will be time spent on motor mounting and such, but in the end should be easier and cheaper than trying g to resurrect the OEM controls and purchase the proprietary Artpath software.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
well just about all spindles are three phase. The VFD supplies the three phases, but the VFD can itself be supplied by single phase or three phase AC power.


What is the voltage rating of the spindle? If it is a 400V spindle than you will need a 400V which in turn will require three phase 400VAC.
If however your spindle is 200V (or thereabouts) then the VFD could be 200VAC (or thereabouts).

The effective limit for single phase input VFD's is 2.2kW. Some Chinese made ones claim that they can operate off a single phase supply but deliver 3kW or even 4kW to a motor. Regard those claims
as suspicious. I'm not saying its impossible but just not that likely. You would require a 40A or 50A single phase AC supply to run such a VFD, there again not impossible, but you'd probably have to get
an electrician to install a special circuit for it, ordinary domestic AC cabling is likely to fry.

It is correct that a VFD generates three phase, and can even do so when supplied by a single phase, but they are meant for a motor. You cannot hook the output of a VFD to anything other than
a motor, or more specifically an inductive load. There are devices that convert single phase into three phase from which you can run regular three phase equipment....but they are worth a fortune!!!
Phase Perfect is a well known and respected brand, this 7.5hp one converts 230V, 45A single phase to 230V three phase and is $2200USD:

https://www.phaseperfect.com/simple/230-volt/pts007

And this 7.5hp one converts 230V single phase to 460V three phase and also costs $2200USD:

https://www.phaseperfect.com/simple/460-volt/pts407

All-in-all powering a 7.5hp spindle from a single phase supply is going to be a challenge, its going to take a lot of current. I'm not sure what is normal in the US, but here in New Zealand our standard
domestic single phase (240VAC) supply is 63A to to 100A, with 85A being the norm. You could absorb as much as half as the total supply current just to run the spindle.

That the servos are not step/direction is a problem. You could use Galil, or Masso or Centroid Oak to run such servos, as all these controllers can 'close the position loop' whereas mach3/Mach4/UCCNC
motion controllers do not. The extra expense and the extra complication of setting up one of these controllers is probably not the best way to go. In which case you'd need to replace the servos.
Ideally you'd replace them with Ste/Dir servos, as everything is matched for servos at the moment. I use 750W Delta B2 servos, for which I pay $438USD plus shipping for a kit, including the servo, drive and cables.
Delta is a Taiwanese brand made in China. Another brand is DMM, a Canadian brand made in China. Both are good quality, performance, documentation, support and most importantly free setup and tuning software.
There are even cheaper Chinese made servos, but are questionable quality, poor documentation, zero support and most tellingly no setup and tuning software. Its not that they don't work, but if you've
never fiddled with servos before I would not recommend them. Pay a bit extra for Delta or DMM.

https://www.fasttobuy.com/flange-80m...er_p28084.html

No matter which way you cut it servos are still quite expensive.

If you chose good low inductance steppers you might power this machine rather more economically. I came across some 34 size 4.5Nm 2.5mH steppers the other day, and they would sing especially with 80VDC or 90VDC
drivers. Such a stepper and driver would be about $100USD.....quite a bit cheaper. You may have to gear them a little to match your ballscrews.

Craig

[ynnek]

Hi,
well just about all spindles are three phase. The VFD supplies the three phases, but the VFD can itself be supplied by single phase or three phase AC power.


What is the voltage rating of the spindle? If it is a 400V spindle than you will need a 400V which in turn will require three phase 400VAC.
If however your spindle is 200V (or thereabouts) then the VFD could be 200VAC (or thereabouts).

The effective limit for single phase input VFD's is 2.2kW. Some Chinese made ones claim that they can operate off a single phase supply but deliver 3kW or even 4kW to a motor. Regard those claims
as suspicious. I'm not saying its impossible but just not that likely. You would require a 40A or 50A single phase AC supply to run such a VFD, there again not impossible, but you'd probably have to get
an electrician to install a special circuit for it, ordinary domestic AC cabling is likely to fry.

It is correct that a VFD generates three phase, and can even do so when supplied by a single phase, but they are meant for a motor. You cannot hook the output of a VFD to anything other than
a motor, or more specifically an inductive load. There are devices that convert single phase into three phase from which you can run regular three phase equipment....but they are worth a fortune!!!
Phase Perfect is a well known and respected brand, this 7.5hp one converts 230V, 45A single phase to 230V three phase and is $2200USD:

https://www.phaseperfect.com/simple/230-volt/pts007

And this 7.5hp one converts 230V single phase to 460V three phase and also costs $2200USD:

https://www.phaseperfect.com/simple/460-volt/pts407

All-in-all powering a 7.5hp spindle from a single phase supply is going to be a challenge, its going to take a lot of current. I'm not sure what is normal in the US, but here in New Zealand our standard
domestic single phase (240VAC) supply is 63A to to 100A, with 85A being the norm. You could absorb as much as half as the total supply current just to run the spindle.

That the servos are not step/direction is a problem. You could use Galil, or Masso or Centroid Oak to run such servos, as all these controllers can 'close the position loop' whereas mach3/Mach4/UCCNC
motion controllers do not. The extra expense and the extra complication of setting up one of these controllers is probably not the best way to go. In which case you'd need to replace the servos.
Ideally you'd replace them with Ste/Dir servos, as everything is matched for servos at the moment. I use 750W Delta B2 servos, for which I pay $438USD plus shipping for a kit, including the servo, drive and cables.
Delta is a Taiwanese brand made in China. Another brand is DMM, a Canadian brand made in China. Both are good quality, performance, documentation, support and most importantly free setup and tuning software.
There are even cheaper Chinese made servos, but are questionable quality, poor documentation, zero support and most tellingly no setup and tuning software. Its not that they don't work, but if you've
never fiddled with servos before I would not recommend them. Pay a bit extra for Delta or DMM.

https://www.fasttobuy.com/flange-80m...er_p28084.html

No matter which way you cut it servos are still quite expensive.

If you chose good low inductance steppers you might power this machine rather more economically. I came across some 34 size 4.5Nm 2.5mH steppers the other day, and they would sing especially with 80VDC or 90VDC
drivers. Such a stepper and driver would be about $100USD.....quite a bit cheaper. You may have to gear them a little to match your ballscrews.

Craig

As stated above, I have all of the components to change out. Spindles, steppers and drives, servos drives, and encoders, proximity switches, breakout boards, and motion control cards. I can use either Mach3 or UCCNC with the parts i have have on hand. I could also go with Masso or Centroid Acorn. The spindles i have to replace the oem units are both 2.2kw with matching vfd's. I don't plan on using any of the proprietary hardware or software. I currently have 50amp, 220vac service and do not intend on adding 3phase.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
well if you have all the bits then have at it! Post a few pic of the swaps.

Craig

[ynnek]

Hi,
well if you have all the bits then have at it! Post a few pic of the swaps.

Craig

Well, first I have to get the frames they are sitting on so it will fit onto my 6.5 x 12 trailer. The frames are a little wide, bt 3/4". Then to move them from Memphis, TN, to my lower Alabama. It will take two trips, one for each machine.