[kcoriginal]

Hi All,

I am rather new to this machinist stuff and I am ripped with enthusiasm for it. In my various trades and hobbies I have acquired knowledge of who makes good stuff and who don't!

aka DeWalt for cordless drills!

So, as I eye all these $20 - $40 Chinese tap and die sets on Ebay, I KNOW they would never hold up to the EXTREME grade steel I am looking to get into working with.

*** Who makes the good stuff for reliably tapping into the hardest of alloys?

I'm not exactly wealthy, so if I have to buy one tap at a time to get heirloom-quality then that's what I'll do! Ok, so I am near broke and taking this one step at a time... heh heh But what are my options? I at least want to minimize my general costs and frustrations of tap breakage by starting with quality maker(s).

All my hand-tools are Craftsman... and they aren't even the best stuff! (anymore?)

Who's the better-than-Craftsman manufacturer(s) for quality taps...?

Feel free to plug any other names who make good machine tools at will! (Though I do understand some of you might work for manufacturers, I hope the answers are un-biased...)



I know this info is of PRICELESS value and have been watching you all share that sort of info for a month or so now, impressed!

So, THANKS a TON in advance!

KC
San Antonio



PS: This should be a fun thread!

[massajamesb]

I bought a large set from Matco ($$) and have been fairly happy with them, though they are not made by Matco. I also buy taps as I go along from a place called Fastenal. I must say that they are probably the most expensive I have seen, but they have some of the best quality taps and drill bits.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...n_dim_search=1

[Zumba]

I'm not sure what you mean by "extreme grades of steel" and the "hardest of alloys". If you don't have a specific need and/or a high budget, exotic alloys are out of the picture anyway. As for hardness of alloy and tool steels, they are quite workable in an annealed state.

I have a Craftsman set that I bought many years ago. It's what I use if I'm in a bind. For the most part, I only use a handful of tap sizes... 8-32, 10-32, 1/4-20, 5/16-18, and 3/8-24. I buy the made-in-Japan OSG taps in packs of 12.

[NC Cams]

I second the recommendation for the Craftsman set for general purpose work. They are convenient and adequate. Although I've never broken one, theoretically, they should be covered by the Craftsman free replacement warranty.

For tapping "hard" metals, you need to be more specific as to what is "hard". Some folks consider 28-32 Hrc as hard. I consider 44+ as "hard". To do that sort of material, you should be looking at a premium "coated" tap. I haven't found a "set" of such taps and, based on the cost of the individual taps, it would be a true heirloom to buy.

However after using a hardare store metric tap and struggling mightily to tap some lead-loy, I borrowed a TIN coated premium tap from the neighbor and was promptly spoiled - it went thru the material like a hot knife thru butter. It even surpasse the Craftsman uncoated tap that I subseqently stumbled across in the tap drawer.

For an heirloom set, I'd consider buying piecemeal the TIN coated premium taps. You won't feel the pain all at once and you won't be disappointed with the set you'll end up with having. Lacking the patience to do that, consider the Craftsman or perhaps a Hanson set or even a Matco. The main advantage of the Craftsman set is that you won't have to wait for the tool man to show up to buy spares/replacments - you can jog on down to the local Sears and pick up what you need - providing it is in stock.

[kcoriginal]

Wow guys! Great info... thanks a bunch already!

As far as the confusion of hardness goes... I think your experience is causing you to read-into the word "hard" and "extreme" grades.

From my perspective... aobut a year ago when I first got interested in the subject of metal-working... I thought steel was steel. Iron was brittle, stainless was also brittle but not rusting... I don't know. Maybe three alloys in my mind... no idea that there were some steels that have differences of melting points of over a 1,000 degrees apart.

That last melting point measure alone is where I want to be safe and say, "Extreme".

I don NOT know about the metallurgy as much as I would like yet. However, it is time for some freakin' practical-ap' already adn I wanna get started. I have some projects in mind, some spare cash beginning to flow and I want to begin to gather the tools.

However, as I said in my opening post, I know that there is crap offered as a tool in every trade.

So, my noobness aside, I use the word extreme as it is meant.

Exotic allows could be in my future, I dont know yet.

I have seen the price differences... WOW! A $50 piece of mild steel (industry throws around the word "mild" not me, so I assume there is a "wild" or "extreme" general level as well) can be $1,000 for the same dimensions of a different alloy.

I just wanted to be clear that, not only am I looking for recommendations, I am not interested in buying balsa tools to work the oak I eventually found myself working with during my woodworking phase!

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Yes, you guys had the heirloom point right on the money. If I gotta buy taps @ $100 each, I may do that... especially since I now understand that I need three different sets of each size! PLUS hand-taps!

Sheesh.

Fun. Fun. Fun.

[kcoriginal]

Oh, and one more thing...

Wouldn't the TIN coat wear off in a rather short period?

I'm not familiar with the properties of TIN any more than I was/am with steel...

Did you/do you use any type of cutting oil with or without the tin version of the tap?

[kcoriginal]

I suppose I will start with a MASSIVE Craftsman set and then in a year when it's paid off , start buying individuals of higher quality, perhaps the tin-coat.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[davereagan]

Like NC CAMS said, what is exotic and hard? I have never tapped Inconel or Waspalloy or Titanium 6AL-4V, but I have tapped 316 stainless and 4140 HT. The 316 was not even on the C scale of hardness but it made the 4140 at 28-32 Rc look like butter. A spiral point coated tap is best for strength and contiuous cutting. Tap Magic w/ EP extra works great on most materials, but for 316, I would use Tap Magic's extra thick formula. It made a noticeable difference. For tapping normal steels up to Rc35, you can use USA made standard Tin coated spiral pointed taps at Enco. I have a 5/8"-11 Tin coated spiral point from them that is running great. I have done a good 100 holes in mild steel, but on every 6th hole, I am going into a heat affected zone and some of the hole is a heat affected weld zone with E71T-GS wire. If you are really serious about hardened steel, OSG knows all about tapping it, but you'll be paying $25 for a 1/4" tap and $50 for a 1/2" tap instead of $5.00 and $11.00 at Enco respectively. High vanadium makes a big dfference in tap life. 3% vanadium or powdered metal high speed steel is what the best non carbide taps are made of,. McMaster Carr does a great job describing what their taps can do and their stock is always good and they take credit cards. I believe their high performance taps are made by Greenfield.
Even with these great taps being available, it's a whole hell of a lot easier to tap something and then heat treat it after if you need it harder than 35 Rc. Always use a .005" oversize tap when you do that. Getting that .002-.003" out after you've case hardened something to Rc60 is just a nasty thing. Dulls or breaks the tap and still doesn't get you there. Tapping is my specialty. I am great at it because I've broken more of them than most people do in a whole career and I'm only 36 years old. I've tapped from 2-56 to 1-1/2"-4 Acme. I can even endmill a HSS tap out with a carbide endmill. My secret is .000020" feed per tooth. That's right, 20 millionths. Have fun.

Dave




www.enco-direct.com

http://www.osgtool.com/product_group.asp?type=tap

www.mcmaster.com

[NC Cams]

Let's clear up something that causes a LOT of unnecessary confusion.

"TIN" is NOT the same as "tin". Moreover, "Tin" is nothing more than a capitalized version of "tin".

TIN is an three letter acronym for "titanium nitride" coating. It is applied via a carefully controlled electro-thermal process using sophisticted application techinques.

"tin" is actually an alloy of the element Tin (Sb on the periodic element chart). It is NOT anywhere's close to TIN in robustness although it does provide some surface lubricity when electroplated or hot dip applied. It is good to plate cans with to prevent corrosion and it is also a good bonding plate when you go to plate steel or copper with other elements.

"tin" has been used as a protective, anti-sieze coating however it is fairly soft - the siezure resistance is more the result of molecular "friendliness" than all out robustness or hardness. At one time, a noted piston maker used it to flash plate pistons for initieal start up scuff/siezure resistance. It has also been alloyed with lead/babbit to create a highly conformable, siezure resistant bearing overlay/plating material.

"tin" is remarkably friendly in that it will adhere to copper, iron, steel and many aluminum based and some other non-ferrous materials when hot dipped or electro plated. It can also be alloyed with these materials under the right circumstances.

TIN on the other hand, is NOT so simply applied although it adheres well and is quite more robust when subjected to SEVERE scuffing and loading conditions. It is truly HARD, tough stuff. It is characteristically "gold" in color whereas "tin" is dull/matte silver when plated but "tin' can be buffed to a lustre.

For tap coating, you'd want TIN coating, especially if you're going to tap ferrrous metals or other metals that have a proclivity to sieze to a ferrous based tool steel tap material.

"tin" coating probably woulld not survive the loading/rubbing that TIN would without rubbing/being wiped off.

[Geof]

People are being sloppy when they write "TIN coated..."

The correct description is; TiN, Ti for Titanium and N for Nitrogen which as NC writes are chemically combined to form Titanium Nitride.

[davereagan]

NC,
Where on Earth can you find tin coated taps? No where that I know of. Of course I meant Titanium Nitride, although I guess our new guy might not know. Should we go for a tour at Balzers Oerlikon? LOL.


Dave

[NC Cams]

Although tin coating is not commercially done to taps, just about any electroplating house could "tin" plate taps on a batch job basis.

The point is/remains that TIN is used when TiN is really meant. I'd contend that when TiN is meant, the referebce ti "tin" coated/plated variant should not be used/considered as interchangeable.

Why? Easy. If you went to a supplier who had the capabilities to do both processes, you'd get the wrong thing if you asked for "tin" when your really meant "TiN".

It pays to say what you mean and mean what you say.

[BobWarfield]

I'll come in late and suggest an alternate course.

I used the Craftsman set I had for many years. In fact, I had two sets and replaced the individual taps and dies if they seemed at all worn.

Then one day I bought some "real" taps. The difference in performance was like night and day.

The Craftsman has always taken a fair amount of tap in a turn or two, back off and break the chips. The brand new "real" taps went into the material like it was butter. Chips were blown out the top very easily (unless it was a thread forming tap!). Suddenly tapping was quick and easy and not the chore it had been. This only whet my appetite for more as I explored the world of tapping and soon tried thread forming taps and 3 flute 45 degree spiral taps:



My conclusion was I never wanted to use those Craftsman taps again if I could avoid it--they got relegated strictly for emergencies.

Now do you want to shell out for a big assortment of expensive taps right away? No, probably not. But here is something else you should be thinking about. Depending on your projects, you are the machinist, you can make them however you want. Why not standardize on a few hardware sizes? Start with a small, medium, and large. Put together an assortment of hardware in those three sizes--socket head cap screws, nylok nuts, regular nuts, washers, and so on. Buy yourself some taps to go with your 3 sizes. Now it's a lot less expensive.

You'll still probably want the Craftsman set for emergencies, but try a real tap first chance you get and see if it doesn't spoil you pretty fast.

Best,

BW