[pp7]

I've been using a mixture of water, liquid dish soap and canola oil for cutting fluid. I noticed that if I use too much soap or too little canola oil, it has a tendency to promote rust. Does anybody else have a home recipe for cutting fluid?

[hoss2006]

Some have used things like coconut oil, beeswax and other household items.
Commercial products like Syn-kool are designed for this and have rust preventatives.
I have a big list here of some products used for coolant and how they compare to commercial products
as far as safety goes, not everything on the list is a coolant candidate.
http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Info.html#msds
Hoss

[pete from TN]

Straight peanut oil.... in fact there are some videos on youtube of a Brother machining center doing just that. I cannot see why that would not work but I would think it would go rancid after awhile. Not sure tho.. I use some stuff I get from a local machine shop. I used to use the blue mister stuff but now use another brand.... I gotta get the name of it but it works real good and only get some black rust under my vise if I do not take it off once in a while. It just rubs off with a light scotchbrite pad not the green stuff. Good luck and peace

Pete

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Not sure what the advantage of trying to make home-made fluid is, when the store-bought stuff is so cheap. I've been working for 5 years off the same one gallon of KoolMist concentrate, which cost all of about $20. At a few ounces to each gallon of water, and a full day of work, which generates about 30 gallons of chips, consuming less than a half-gallon of coolant, the cost per day is close to $0. Never a problem with rust.

Regards,
Ray L.

[pete from TN]

Actually that is what I was using before this new stuff and I did have an occasional problem with black looking rust under the vise and or fixtures. How much did you dilute this stuff? I went thru a gallon twice inside of the year I have been CNC and had to get more that is why I went with the new stuff. It worked fine and cut fine tho.....Peace

Pete

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Actually that is what I was using before this new stuff and I did have an occasional problem with black looking rust under the vise and or fixtures. How much did you dilute this stuff? I went thru a gallon twice inside of the year I have been CNC and had to get more that is why I went with the new stuff. It worked fine and cut fine tho.....Peace

Pete

Pete,

I use the specified dilution, which is something like 3-4 ounces to a gallon of water, and I go through about 1/2 gallon/day doing heavy milling. Overall, the cost of tools FAR exceeds the cost of coolant. I use it in a FogBuster, so there very little accumulation on the machine - the majority of what little "runoff" there is gets evaporated in minutes. You can still get rust of there are other contaminants present. I've occassionally used wood as a spoiler board - BAD idea! There's something in the wood that promotes corrosion if you don't clean up and dry off at the end of the day. But, with metal fixtures, I've never had any rust whatsoever, though just as cheap insurance, I try to remove all fixtures, clean off the machine, and spray on a coat of WD40 at the end of each day. After 3 years, my machine is virtually still pristine.

Regards,
Ray L.

[fragger6662000]

I would always go for commercial products over homemade as millions of £ and $ are spent developing coolants. There are many different components that go into the solution including,

Lubricants
Rust inhibitors
Mold / bacteria inhibitors
Fire retardants
Stabilizers

There are many new 'Natural products' coming onto the market including solutions based on pine needles and other bi products. One word of warning is that water bases coolants are good but they do present hygiene issues and can become contaminated and create a perfect breading ground for anything and everything.

As we all know certain things go on in machine shop coolant from coffee dregs to other things were i work the coolant turns into yogurt if it is not circulated for 3 or 4 days.

My attitude is it is false economy saving a couple of £ and have a rust issue and be replacing parts or trying to reinvent the wheel and make few square ones.

I personally use WD40 and GT85 for cutting ally and spray it on as required.

[Flenser]

I always assumed KoolMist was essentially Propylene Glycol, and have been using biodegradable antifreeze as a cheaper substitute. I dilute it about 1:4 with water in a homemade Fogbuster, or use it full strength for tapping and drilling. With the Fogbuster I do have to dry things off and spray on some oil (Superlube) at the end of the day to prevent rust.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I always assumed KoolMist was essentially Propylene Glycol, and have been using biodegradable antifreeze as a cheaper substitute. I dilute it about 1:4 with water in a homemade Fogbuster, or use it full strength for tapping and drilling. With the Fogbuster I do have to dry things off and spray on some oil (Superlube) at the end of the day to prevent rust.

I would be EXTREMELY careful about using ANYTHING for mist cooling that isn't explicitly designed for the purpose. You WILL be breathing both mist and fumes, and you really want it to be something that is non-toxic. I would be very surprised if any anti-freeze fits that description.

Regards,
Ray L.

[cornbinder23]

They make "Food Grade" glycol but I believe it is ethylene glycol?
not propylene glycol
I use a fogbuster at work on my bridgeport for 10+ hrs a day and always use good ventilation. I use koolmist.

If you can smell the coolant coming off of a fogbuster then you are BREATHING the coolant.

And, I don't necessarily trust coolant manufacturers labels of "Non Toxic" because most of the time it is followed by a dispose of properly clause, and if it really is non toxic you should be able to dispose of it like any other trash


JTCUSTOMS

[jc56au]

They make "Food Grade" glycol but I believe it is ethylene glycol? not propylene glycol
JTCUSTOMS

Either glycol is not good for you although propylene gycol is not as bad; the methanol doesn't help either. The main issue with antifreeze is corrosion inhibitors often stuff like sodium nitrite (NO2 not nitrate - NO3) which has a LD50 similar to cyanide.

[Flenser]

The anti freeze I'm using is made to flush the drinking water systems on RVs. Propylene Glycol is approved for use in electronic cigarettes, as a food additive, skin moisturizer, incense fragrance additive, and... and a ground beetle poison

It's more a case of the devil I know, since KoolMist doesn't publish their ingredients - at least that I've found anywhere on the net.

[sansbury]

Ethylene glycol is what goes in antifreeze and it is kill-you-nasty stuff. I believe it bio-accumulates; if I recall a wife some years back killed her husband by putting a teaspoon or so of it in his beer every night for some time, though that may be an urban legend.

As for propylene glycol, it is classified as safe for use as a food additive. You can hurt yourself with it, but you'd need to chug it straight. Whether it's any good as a coolant I don't know. I use soluble oil which is dirt-cheap compared to everything else in this trade.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

According to Wikipedia: "Exposure to [propylene glycol] mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation. Inhalation of the propylene glycol vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of propylene glycol mists could be irritating to some individuals. Therefore inhalation exposure to mists of these materials should be avoided. Some research has suggested that propylene glycol not be used in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as fogs for theatrical productions or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations."

[Flenser]

Yes, I read that. Back when I first started wondering what was in Kool Mist I found an OSHA sheet on a spary wash that contained propylene glycol, and it indicated no respiratory issues the same as the much published OSHA sheet on Kool Mist. I can't seem to find that sheet now, though.

Anyway, I've been using the stuff for months in a fog buster with no issues, but this thread has made me just paranoid enough to buy some Kool Mist : ) It probably is propylene glycol, though. There aren't that many safe water soluble anti corrosive agents around.

[The_Tuner]

PG is used in alot of stuff ... fog machines ... its the base liquid in electronic cigarettes (makes the smoke,fog), nebulizers.

Below copied from Electronic cigarette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PG (Propylene glycol) has been used as the aqueous-based chemical additive in asthma inhalers and nebulizers since the 1950s, with no serious side effects known. PG, because of its water-retaining properties, is the compound of choice for delivering atomized medication. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) includes Propylene glycol on its list of substances Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS), and it meets the requirements of acceptable compounds within Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations. Considering PG has been widely used for many years without serious side effects, the substance can reasonably said to be of negligible concern.

My idea on this:

Some electronic cigarettes use VG vegetable glycerin (glycerol) as the fog rather than PG

Now having said all of that ... this stuff is made into a vehicle to transport nicotine or medication to the lungs through a heating element (makes alot of fog), so I guess if you put some heat on your mill (cutting) and add some e-cigarette liquid you wouldn't have to smoke? ( though because of the fog you might not be able to see what you are doing lol) I know eliquid is not safe to drink (toxic), but then again nicotine is very very toxic to drink so I dunno just food for thought, don't think for a minute I would ever drink PG ... food grade VG on the other hand seems less harmful too me (I have no scientific evidence of this although), though I wouldnt drink it either.

And yes I have several electronic cigarettes, VG based and PG based ... the PG I dont care for the taste, VG is neutral and makes alot of smoke (fog) ... Dunno if the heating of this chemical is safe (or the non heating) but it seems if they are using it for medication transport it might not be bad, lol again I am sure people will have different reactions to different things

So its seems its sort of one of those things that who really knows if its safe or not and in what form is it more or less safe, heating or not heating, drinking, this stuff may or may not be as bad as smoking a regular cigarette, scary.

[dertsap]

.

And yes I have several electronic cigarettes, VG based and PG based ... the PG I dont care for the taste, VG is neutral and makes alot of smoke (fog) ... Dunno if the heating of this chemical is safe (or the non heating) but it seems if they are using it for medication transport it might not be bad, lol again I am sure people will have different reactions to different things

So its seems its sort of one of those things that who really knows if its safe or not and in what form is it more or less safe, heating or not heating, drinking, this stuff may or may not be as bad as smoking a regular cigarette, scary.

In trading one vise for another , I've been using the electric smokes with pg and vg bases , and in doing so I decided to research the materials that are used so that i know that this won't kill me before smoking does

pg has three different grades , food , pharmaceutical and industrial , industrial isn't considered safe and has no real regulations in its production . it can easily contain a number of toxins , and more times than none it does .
pharmaceutical grade has been tested heavily on animals for various reason , biological warfare being one , its vapor has been proven to be very safe in extreme conditions ,
its also been recognized as having anti bacterial properties
vegetable glycerin
in electric cigs is used at low temperature to create the vapor , vg at temperatures above 280C will create acrolein which is toxic , so cutting with it may produce enough heat to become dangerous



.

[El Ventu]

The problem isn't "it is toxic or not".
The problem is "How much of it can cause healt disease?".

Alcohol (ethanol) is toxic, it can be lethal.
It isn't lethal if you drink some beer with 5% alcohol, it isn't lethal if you drink even a liter of serbian Rakija (70% alcohol) in one day -I've do that, a night in Guca, in southern Serbia...heavy drunkness, very bad hangover, but I'm still alive- but if you ingest more alcohol than your body can manage without problem, it cause health problem in years (or months...).

A little of it can be good (like a glass of good wine at each meal).

It is the same thing with ethylene glycol, or propylene glycol (wich is less toxic, but non safe...).
There is a quantity which is mortal, one that is toxic, one that is safe and that (perhaps) is also good.
I think as an additive it can be not dangerous, like 1-2% in electronic cigarettes, but remember, if it is better than smoking a cigarette, not to say that is good for health...a fist in face is better of smoking one (or the first) cigarette, on the long period, but it is painful...

A few years ago a son of a ***** has thrown near my house some poisoned bait to kill the dogs, poisoned them with oxalic acid, used in beekeeping.
Our dog eat one bait and had urinated blood and had intestinal lesions, so the vet thought he had drunk of antifreeze in our garage.
The kidneys decompose ethylene glycol as oxalic acid, that gives the problems that our dog had.
Then, randomly walking in the countryside close to home, I found a packet of oxalic acid and sugar (the one used in beekeeping in fact) and I realized that the problem was not the antifreeze, but directly oxalic acid, and after 5days of suffering we could find the right care for the dog, who was saved.

In a similar modality, you can find that even the safer propylene glycol is modified by the body also in Propionaldehyde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, that is so toxic.
The companies has the interest to made the people think that some products are not poisonous because that product can help them to create low-cost products.
Beware from the semplification they gives you, all the things are complex in the world.
They use the PG to defrost airplanes, I'm sure that governments, in a few years (maybe more), prohibit the use of these compounds for environmental damage (PG decomposition causes severe damage to aquatic environments).

But at now you can see it in a lot of things, and you are sure that is safe, in the same way your grandmother thinks of DDT when sprayed your parents in the '60s...

The right cutting fluid protect your machinery and tools, and it is probabily safer than any home made fluid you can do mixing some different chemical.

[captainshabs]

I can't find any store that has any type of cutting oil bigger than a 32 oz bottle and all of those can't be mixed with water. I need something that I can mix up and get two gallons. Its not like I live in the middle of B.F.E I live in Vallejo, Ca and no one has anything on hand. Home depot Lowes, Ace hardware all can get them but must order them, Napa auto carries then but every store out of stock, Graingier must order 5-10 days. Who the hell has 1 week to wait around when all that you have to do is press start and begin 4 hours of CNC machining. I have to stand there spraying wd-40 on the part the entire time I would just do the job by hand. What I see as the advantage is not having to wait.

[MichaelHenry]

Pick a commercially available coolant fluid and check their web site or call them for local distributors names. I did that with both Hangsterfer and Qualichem and had coolant in a few days, one was shipped and the other was close enough to pick up.