[JTJT]

Did you miss this statement by Norton-BMW?





It's interesting that JTJT posts a thread to describe warranty terms which is locked shortly after posting. Can a moderator comment on why the thread was locked and if it was by a mod or by JTJT?

Michael,
There were some pretty abusive responses right away, and I'm guessing the moderator didn't want to have to babysit the thread. I re-posted it and we'll just have to wait and see what happens. BTW- as far as the 1 year period goes, we have made special accomodations in the past for people who developed health issues and other reasons. All we ask is that the customer contact us and explain their situation.

[ger21]

I locked it so I don't have to babysit it, like this thread. I unlocked it and removed the duplicate.
With the super slow speed of the zone lately, I don't have time to babysit.

[chuckorlando]

It does not matter the brand or orig. If you pay for specs you should get specs. If you do not get those specs, the company should fix the problem with out issue.

Anything less, means the company is not honest about the specs.

It does not take mazak money to deliver what you say you will. You should not have to pay for honesty or peace of mind.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

It does not matter the brand or orig. If you pay for specs you should get specs. If you do not get those specs, the company should fix the problem with out issue.
It does not take mazak money to deliver what you say you will. You should not have to pay for honesty or peace of mind.

Chuck, I don't think there is any dispute about that, but the customer must live up to the warranty as well and offer the manufacturer the chance to replace any defective parts. Since you mention Mazak, here is a copy of their warranty, and as you can see it is far more restrictive than Shopmaster.

WARRANTY REPAIR/REPLACEMENT REMEDY. MAZAK warrants Part purchases installed by Mazak or Authorized Service Affiliates for a period of 90 days. Mazak will repair or, if determined appropriate by MAZAK, replace any Part which is (i) determined by MAZAK to be defective and (ii) is returned within said 90 day period to MAZAK at its factory at 8025 Production Drive, Florence, Kentucky, or such other place as MAZAK may designate in writing, with all transportation charges prepaid by BUYER. MAZAK's repair/replacement costs are limited only to repair or replacement (at MAZAK's option) at MAZAK's designated location. Return of any repaired or replaced Part to BUYER shall be at BUYER's risk and expense. This repair/replacement remedy also is conditioned upon BUYER furnishing satisfactory evidence that the Part alleged to be defective has been properly maintained and correctly operated under normal conditions with competent supervision and within the operating limits for which such Part is offered and sold. This remedy shall not apply to any Part that has been subjected to misuse, abuse, neglect, or improper storage, handling, maintenance or operation. BUYER shall be solely responsible for proper training of all persons operating, maintaining or programming the Product which the Part is used. Should the services of a field service technician be required, MAZAK shall make every reasonable effort to send a technician as soon as practicable. Without liability, MAZAK shall have the right to withhold repair or replacement service on any Product in the event that BUYER's accounts with MAZAK are not current. EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED IN THIS SECTION 11, MAZAK MAKES NO WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, WHETHER OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR USE OR OTHERWISE, WITH RESPECT TO ANY PRODUCT OR LABOR FURNISHED IN CONNECTION WITH THE SALE, DELIVERY OR SERVICING OF ANY PRODUCT. GOODS AND MATERIALS NOT MANUFACTURED BY MAZAK CARRY THE STANDARD GUARANTEE OF THE MANUFACTURER THEREOF, IF ANY, AND MAZAK SHALL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DEFECTIVE PART THEREOF.12. LIMIT OF MAZAK'S LIABILITY; CUSTOMER'S REMEDY. IN NO EVENT SHALL MAZAK BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DAMAGES FOR INJURY TO PERSON OR PROPERTY, LOST PROFITS OR REVENUE, LOST SALES OR LOSS OF USE OF ANY PRODUCT. BUYER'S SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY AGAINST MAZAK AND ITS DISTRIBUTORS OR SALES REPRESENTATIVES SHALL BE THE REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT OF DEFECTIVE PARTS AS PROVIDED HEREIN. MAZAK'S LIABILITY ON ANY CLAIM, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH BUYER'S ORDER, SHALL IN NO CASE EXCEED THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE ORDER. The sole purpose of the stipulated exclusive remedy provided for herein shall be to provide BUYER with repair or replacement of defective Parts in the manner provided for herein. Such remedy shall not be deemed to have failed of its essential purpose so long as MAZAK is willing and able to repair or replace defective Parts in the prescribed manner. Any claim or action by BUYER arising out of or in connection this Agreement or the Part, whether in contract, tort or otherwise, must be commenced within 90 days after the cause of action has accrued or be barred.
NO RIGHT OF SET OFF. BUYER has no right to deduct or set off from the purchase price of the Product any damages or costs incurred by BUYER as a result of any action on the part of MAZAK or otherwise.

[chuckorlando]

I read over and over again how people should expect this because it's a low end machine.

All I am saying is, people should get what they were sold. In the specs posted.

When this does not happen, consumers really do not care what the issue is between the two parties. All they see is a bad machine, unhappy customer, and no resolution. So they look else where. This cost you money.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

I read over and over again how people should expect this because it's a low end machine.
When this does not happen, consumers really do not care what the issue is between the two parties. All they see is a bad machine, unhappy customer, and no resolution. So they look else where. This cost you money.

Chuck,
I have had 4 of the Shoptask/Shopmaster machines, and all gave me good service. These kind of posts didn't bother me any and I don't see how you think it would cost me money. Actually just the opposite- they all made me a lot of money.

[chuckorlando]

Thats awesome.

I never said it would cost you money. It cost shoptask money.

Because threads like these influence choices. Thats a reality. Maybe not your choice. But it will cost them money

[BIGBLOCK1965]

Thats awesome. I never said it would cost you money. It cost shoptask money.
Because threads like these influence choices. Thats a reality. Maybe not your choice. But it will cost them money

I'm sure some will be scared away, but I think reasonable people will see the agenda behind these posts. Shoptask has been around for 35 years, so not much chance it will have a big impact on them. Here is a post from Practical Machinist about Mazak- not very complimentary either, but they are still around.

leyova,

Jumping on this thread a little late - perhaps you have already cut your PO. If so, I hope you went for the Daewoo.

We bought a Puma 300LC in 2001 after extensive research, including plant visits to Florence, KY (Mazak) and Charlotte, NC (Okuma). We did test runs on Mazak and Okuma machines locally (Ohio) and both performed poorly. Our test was cutting 4 TPI OD threads out at the tailstock end of a 48" long bar of 7" dia. 1045. The Mazak chattered so bad I thought the sheet metal was going to fall right off the machine. The Okuma did not fare much better, even with it's box ways.

I had to fly to Houston, TX to see the Daewoo in action and the first time it ran the threading cycle my back was turned (talking to the sales guy). My jaw dropped when I turned around and realized that it was done - no noise, no complaints, just 12 passes at 0.012 DOC. After seeing a few more threading demos, I flew home and wrote out a purchase order.

It was hard to give up that fancy Mazak control, but we ended up better off, I think, because we elected to go with PC based CAM software instead of the overpriced Fanuc Conversational control. The CAM software has allowed us to do things with our mills that we never could have with thier conversational controls.

[n1tr0]

I'm sure some will be scared away, but I think reasonable people will see the agenda behind these posts.

It would seem your agenda is to fill the thread with posts about other companies in order to water down the content concerning Shopmaster.

Regardless of any warranty policy provided by Shopmaster, there is an "Implied Warranty" written into the foundation of all transactions in the United States and most other countries. That is, when you buy a new product from someone whose business it is to sell products of that nature, that product must work as advertised. Call it the anti-snake-oil law if you'd like.
Here's a couple examples of the law as it's written in Washington State (and you can google "implied warranty" and your own state or country if you'd like).

RCW 62A.2-314
Implied warranty: Merchantability; usage of trade.
(1) Unless excluded or modified (RCW 62A.2-316), a warranty that the goods shall be merchantable is implied in a contract for their sale if the seller is a merchant with respect to goods of that kind. Under this section the serving for value of food or drink to be consumed either on the premises or elsewhere is a sale.
(2) Goods to be merchantable must be at least such as
(a) pass without objection in the trade under the contract description; and
(b) in the case of fungible goods, are of fair average quality within the description; and
(c) are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used; and
(d) run, within the variations permitted by the agreement, of even kind, quality and quantity within each unit and among all units involved; and
(e) are adequately contained, packaged, and labeled as the agreement may require; and
(f) conform to the promises or affirmations of fact made on the container or label if any.
(3) Unless excluded or modified (RCW 62A.2-316) other implied warranties may arise from course of dealing or usage of trade.
[1965 ex.s. c 157 § 2-314. Cf. former RCW 63.04.160(2); 1925 ex.s. c 142 § 15; RRS § 5836-15.]

and also this one that's most often applied to new and used car dealers (yes even used cars sold as-is need a full disclosure if being sold by a used car dealer).

RCW 62A.2-315
Implied warranty: Fitness for particular purpose.
Where the seller at the time of contracting has reason to know any particular purpose for which the goods are required and that the buyer is relying on the seller's skill or judgment to select or furnish suitable goods, there is unless excluded or modified under the next section an implied warranty that the goods shall be fit for such purpose.
[1965 ex.s. c 157 § 2-315. Cf. former RCW 63.04.160(1), (4), (5); 1925 ex.s. c 142 § 15; RRS § 5836-15.]

I hope now we can close the debate about warranties and get back to discussing what's broken/defective/etc and how to fix it. I'm really interested in solutions for fixing my noisy, overheating spindle and squaring up the upper end of the machine.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

Regardless of any warranty policy provided by Shopmaster, there is an "Implied Warranty" .

Aren't you the guy who said he didn't want the thread to degenerate into "legalese" ? Since you changed your mind, here is Mazaks position on "implied warranties" for a 6 figure lathe. ( their own caps)

EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED IN THIS SECTION 11, MAZAK MAKES NO WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, WHETHER OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR USE OR OTHERWISE, WITH RESPECT TO ANY PRODUCT OR LABOR FURNISHED IN CONNECTION WITH THE SALE, DELIVERY OR SERVICING OF ANY PRODUCT. GOODS AND MATERIALS NOT MANUFACTURED BY MAZAK CARRY THE STANDARD GUARANTEE OF THE MANUFACTURER THEREOF, IF ANY, AND MAZAK SHALL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DEFECTIVE PART THEREOF.12. LIMIT OF MAZAK'S LIABILITY; CUSTOMER'S REMEDY. IN NO EVENT SHALL MAZAK BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DAMAGES FOR INJURY TO PERSON OR PROPERTY, LOST PROFITS OR REVENUE, LOST SALES OR LOSS OF USE OF ANY PRODUCT. BUYER'S SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY AGAINST MAZAK AND ITS DISTRIBUTORS OR SALES REPRESENTATIVES SHALL BE THE REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT OF DEFECTIVE PARTS AS PROVIDED HEREIN. MAZAK'S LIABILITY ON ANY CLAIM, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH BUYER'S ORDER, SHALL IN NO CASE EXCEED THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE ORDER. The sole purpose of the stipulated exclusive remedy provided for herein shall be to provide BUYER with repair or replacement of defective Parts

[chuckorlando]

It does not really matter what a contract say's. If they sale you a POS while saying it is not, they will have to fix that.

Further more, you posting peoples warranty info, does nothing for the bad taste in perspective byers mouths. In fact, it really just makes it worse. "Look, it's legal" ahaha

Then you look at the product and web, and wonder why they have advanced so little in such a long time.

I have nothing against the company. I am a machinist looking to start producing products for my self. So I am the perspective customer. If this thread keeps just me from buying a machine, they lost money. The idea that not selling a machine will not hurt the company, explains the 30yrs with so little progress.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

It does not really matter what a contract say's. If they sale you a POS while saying it is not, they will have to fix that.

Further more, you posting peoples warranty info, does nothing for the bad taste in perspective byers mouths. In fact, it really just makes it worse. "Look, it's legal" ahaha
Then you look at the product and web, and wonder why they have advanced so little in such a long time.
I have nothing against the company. I am a machinist looking to start producing products for my self. So I am the perspective customer. If this thread keeps just me from buying a machine, they lost money. The idea that not selling a machine will not hurt the company, explains the 30yrs with so little progress.

Or they might just think they saved themselves a lot of grief. As far as not advancing goes, they are a huge advancement over the unit I bought in 1993.

[Norton_BMW]

Or they might just think they saved themselves a lot of grief. As far as not advancing goes, they are a huge advancement over the unit I bought in 1993.

I think the most grief would have been eliminated via not buying Shopmaster/Shoptask's latest offering in the first place.

I find your statement about "they are a huge advancement over the unit I bought in 1993" oxymoronical, as what do you call advancement?

I had a late friend in Alberta who had a 12-22TC, which he bought in 89-90 ( yes primitive by today's standards) before coming back to Canada to retire after a work assignment stateside. He never uncrated it for quite a few months and I helped him set it up when he did in mid 1990. We went through all the functions and checked all the alignments over two weekends, some Big Rock Ale and his wife's awesome Greek cooking. Other than some minor scraping and setting up the gibs and the main motor pulley having a seized set screw, it had none of the visibly shoddy manufacturing and quality issues that the 2015 MillTurn arrived with. He was machining stainless motorcycle axles with threads and an end nut by the afternoon of the second Sunday. I still ride on that first axle on my 1960 BMW R60/2 to this very day.

Yes the design concept may have advanced dramatically, features added, DRO & CNC included but the quality and attention to detail with which they have been manufactured and assembled has not only not kept up with the times, but in my opinion declined. For example why wasn't a CNC machine used to bore and/or tap all the holes in the milling carriage/bridge? Instead it was done freehand without a jig with obvious poor results. A high school shop class would have done better.

I have had the machine for 10+ months since it arrived and have to date done a great deal of machining and repair/replacement to the various parts and have yet to make my first chip, because it looked advanced as advertised but beneath the glossy veneer of painted panels lay an accumulation of poor quality fabrication and components as evidence of a declining or non-existent quality program. Even the stepper motors were to quote n1tr0 possibly the weakest Nema 34's available and yet Shopmaster/Shoptask has no idea how they ended up on several machines that have been checked. Even the current limiting resistor for these motors are set at a generic 3.48K Ohm instead of the 2K that would have matched the 2 Amps the undersized motors need.

Advanced ideas with retrograde quality have been stake in the heart of many an automaker, you cant afford to deliver a pizza in a Lamborghini and pizzas would arrive cold and a day late in a Yugo. The Millturn was bought on the sales brochure that described Cadillac quality
https://www.shopmasterusa.com/conten...oose-a-patriot
But Shopmaster/Shoptask delivered a Yugo in Cadillac clothing.

[ger21]

Experience here has shown me that when multiple members are all reporting each others posts, then they are all at fault. It's pretty clear that some of you have an agenda.
After over a dozen reported posts, from at least 5 different members, you've now gotten to the point where I instantly start banning people, no questions asked. And nobody is immune.

Feel free to have a discussion, but if anyone mentions another member, for any reason, then they're gone.

[BIGBLOCK1965]

I had a late friend in Alberta who had a 12-22TC, which he bought in 89-90 ( yes primitive by today's standards) before coming back to Canada to retire after a work assignment stateside. He never uncrated it for quite a few months and I helped him set it up when he did in mid 1990.

Yeah- the 12-22 model was the model just before I bought my 17-20 XMTC. I had looked at the 12-22, but it had that mill head that was so close to the chuck that it really had almost no capacity unless you removed the chuck. The mill table was really small as well. It was really about 90% lathe and 10% mill. I was glad I held off, because the 17-20 was a huge improvement- 5 times the milling area and you didn't need to remove the chuck. It was big enough to do valve guides on 350 Chevy heads, and I made a 350 flywheel in the lathe out of a 3/4" thick slab of CRS. You can still find those 12-22 models on E-Bay if that's what you are looking for. Here's a link.
Used Metal Lathe and Mill | eBay

[Norton_BMW]

I have just gotten around to powering up the VFD and Lathe motor only, and noted that the fan on the end of the motor was touching the fan shroud at the end of the motor. There was a screw missing from transit and looking at the actual fan I noted something odd.
The fan can actually slip back and forth on the motor shaft.

Since the fans efficiency is related to the clearance to the fan shroud/guard, when it is in the later position it would recirculate a lower percentage of its air, being a constant speed motor hooked to a variable speed drive, at slower speeds at high constant torque it will need the best available cooling. I have tried to research the motor and I have been unable to find a fan that takes up the full shaft that would have deeper blade patterns to move more air. Perhaps the narrower fan was chosen by the motor factory to prevent the power absorbed by the fan from dropping the actual shaft Kw output below the design rating.

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream...%20344-348.pdf

There are two options make a sleeve to keep the fan in the first position shown above, or take the same sleeve and keep the fan in the second position and drill new cover retaining holes to move the shroud/cover close enough to have a 1mm Fan blade gap against the cover face and also drill a hole for the shaft to protrude through the cover. I am leaning towards the latter as extending the cover over the TEFC motors fins further will aid in the cooling.

[chuckorlando]

Can you not drill and tap the fan. Set screw it in place? I assume it has a molded key or keyway so it would not take much to hold it

[Norton_BMW]

Can you not drill and tap the fan. Set screw it in place? I assume it has a molded key or keyway so it would not take much to hold it

I had already looked at that, but the material the fan is made from is too soft to really accept a setscrew. It has a molded keyway and the easiest thing is making a small sleeve. A piece of CPVC pipe would probably work.

[instructor37]

A better and simpler option is to get one of those computer style fans- they make them in 110 and 220 volts about 5" square- bolt it to the original fan housing and wire it to the motor power supply so it comes on whenever the motor is running. They put out a lot of air and the volume of air is not dependent on the speed of the motor. A big improvement in cooling when you are running the motor at low speeds for things like tapping. Here's a link
110V 2Wire Brushless Computer Cooling Fan 8cm Fan 80mm 80x80x25mm Sleeve Bearing | eBay

[chuckorlando]

Great idea.