[SCT]

Hi,
I'm looking for any and all feedback about the EZ-Router products and their support (www.ez-router.com). Does anybody here own one of these machines? Do they have any common problems or downfalls?
From what I have seen, the EZ-Router looks like a better machine than a shopbot at a better price. I've looked at the more expensive units (shopsaber, techno, etc.) and it seems the biggest difference is the addition of ball screw drives. The EZ is a R&P system, but ballscrews have their own problems too. So why not go with the cheap machine with all the extras for what the others are charging for a table without legs or a router, right?

Thanks for your imput!

[conceptmachine]

sct,
ez-router is a good machine, i almost baught one myself! I went with a shopbot because the customer service/shopbot forum are awesome.I couldnt be happier with my bot.shopbot has a new prs model out now check it out before you make a descision .

[conceptmachine]

forgot to say...
most every machine has problems,even ones costing 100k plus thats why i went with shopbot so when i do have a problem or question the answer is a mouse click away...my .02 worth.
ps.. im in no way saying ez-router is not a good machine

[Zumba]

You should take a closer look at the specs of the machines. The Shopbot PRT Alpha is a MUCH faster machine. It rapids twice as fast, almost 2000 IPM I believe, vs 800 for the EZ. The Shopbot uses Japanese made Vexta steppers with the "alpha" closed loop system.

I'll admit I'm not a fan of either of these machines... I don't like how they're constructed. They scream "cheap" to me and have inherent accuracy issues by using v-rollers and R&P. Worse yet is the design of the gantry. Rather than making the gantry 12"+ tall with a flat bed, they basically build an 8 inch "wall" along the side of the machine so that the gantry only needs to be around 4" tall. This allows them to build a wimpier gantry (save on material costs) at the expense of poor access to the table. It may seem trivial to first time CNC-buyer, but the 8" wall can be REALLY annoying.

Regardless, between the two, I'd choose the Shopbot without hesitation. I will never choose a knockoff over the original unless it's a lot better, and with the EZ, better it is not. Just cheaper.

[conceptmachine]

zumba,
I'll have to say from my experience using my shopbot that i have never had any problems with accuracy.every time i have checked a part it has been no more than .005 out of spec.as far as being cheaply made i will agree and disagree if you compare the shopbot to a thermwood then yes it's made cheap.but it cost 100k less.for an entry level cnc router you cant expect it to be built like a big industrial router or would it be fair to compare it to one.

[Joe Crumley]

Here's the skinny on Shopbot:

The company is full of nice people and the support is B+. They've been available for phone support and courtious every time I've called. But if you buy one of these kit, you're going to need the support. Even with five years of Shopbot experience, I had to call last week. It was a software problem. Nothing could be done. This is a regular proplem since the Windows Program & controller are very weak. Ted Hall, the owner, is dedicated to the original little DOS program which is way too small. No matter how many Geco's you slap on their board, it's dinkey.

One interesting fact is the difference in problems each user comes up with. Since it comes as a kit, each unit has it's own personality. One owner may experience problems the one next door doesn't. But they all have the common out of square issue. This is a bolt together unit and will NOT stay square when given a few good bumps. The answer it to invite your local welder to stick it together. Once this is done it will run much smoother and sound smoother also.

The Shopbot Forum is a jewel. It's been the watering hole where we could visit to see what others were doing. Although there a few scraps, all in all, it's been fun. However the forum is a Shopbot necessity, as most posts concerned how to keet the thing going. A quick review of the posts shows how many problems people are having. Allways breaking down on a regular basis.

Quality of Cut: For years Shopbot has been plagued with poor cuts. I don't know how many hours we all spent making Shopbots advised adjustments for smoother cuts. This is generally seen or radiuses. We would slow it up and down. We'd make clean up passes. Grease the wheels, then go for the sandpaper. Then came the Alpha which was designed for rapid cutting with no improvement to smoother cutting. Absolutely NONE. Shopbot got itself in a corner with direct dirve which increased it travel speed but nothing for cleaner cuts. With an enemic pulse rate coming from the Old DOS controller, that transfered slow pulses directly to motors resulting in poor cutting. That's where Mach and the Ascension 1000 opens the Bot up to a whole new level.

As for speed: Alpha is NOT faster than one of the older PRT's coupled with an Ascension 1000. I know this from experience. Also the Alpha isn't as fast as the EZ Router. They are close however. Really though, speed has little to do with making money for the average user. What will cost you bucks is loss of steps, sanding parts, controller shut downs, and the necessity for continual up-grades. Did I mention Sanding, sanding, sanding, and more sanding?

I complement Shopbot for opening up the field to the little guy but it's a Pee Shooter at best. Ez is much the same but many times better for thousands less.

Lets not count out ShopSabre. Although I haven't any first hand experience with this unit but have talked with a couple of owners. My first question was how much support is needed and how hours a week did the router run. Both were industrial use. One was an artist who's unit was equiped witha tool changer. He turns it on each morning for the 3D files and let it go each morning. The only problem he had was with the tool changer when it was installed. From there it was clear sailing.

J.
www.normansignco.com

[SCT]

Thanks for the great info guys. I looked at the shopsabre and it is a good looking machine with great reviews ...but a price to match. 12K does not include a router, legs for the table, or even limit switches. EZ is offering a welded table with ALL the extras and delivered for 16K. And it seems the welded table may be worth more than I thought. I hadn't considered the raised side rails as a problem, and for me I don't think they would be too invasive. I cut .25" acrylic about 90% of the time so a bigger issue for me would be the edge finish.

The sound of a sander kicking on triggers crys and moans in my shop. Although you can effectivly sand acrylic, it isn't pretty. Therefore I've been trying to determine if the EZ would deliver a satisfactory edge on straight and radius edges. They claim a "Step Resolution: (.0005)" Does this mean 2000 steps per inch? What kind of resolution would produce a clean edge? The EZ utilizes Mach 3 but I haven't gotten any info on the step motor drivers, or is that the 'resolution'? How does this compare with the Ascention?

[Joe Crumley]

I'm not sure how you came up with the costs of either of the CNC's. I re-visited both of these and didn't see how you came up with the totals.

I purchased my 5'X10' with a 5Hp Colombo and several exta's which came in at 13K.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[drmosh]

My opinion (and it's only mine, and most people on this forum probably think it's a pretty lame one) is that the speeds, steps, resolution, etc. are too abstract, moderately confusing, and in MANY cases don't equate to what a machine does "in real life, in my shop". You have a business and you know exactly what you need the machine to do in order for it to be a great investment. If the ezRouter machine works as advertised, and gives you the cut quality that you want, you'll probably be hard pressed to find another machine cheaper (that is, so significantly cheaper that it's worth your continued time and energy to look for it). If ezRouter had a 100% money back guarantee on cutting quality, for only an extra 3% cost, would you buy it? Of course you would, because that's only an extra $480 based on your estimate. Which happens to be about the price (probably) of flying to their place in TX for a one-day visit to check out the machine. Sooo....

If you're ready to buy, call them and let them know what you're cutting, what kind of cuts/shapes you need, finish expectations and everything else you need/want it to do. If they say that it will do what you want then give them the following offer:

You fly down there and see them cut similar material. bring a new cutter with you that you've purchased based on their recommendations, along with some samples of the actual acrylic you use in your shop. if it meets your expectaions you put a deposit down on the spot. if it doesnt, then they reimburse you for the airplane ticket.

if they're not willing to do that then call shopbot because I'd bet they would. if *you're* not willing to do that then you're still shopping

Again, it's just my opinion, but I really feel that far too many people get sucked up into an endless loop of numbers/specs/engineering "overanalysis". It's just a machine. Buy it based on it's actual, demonstrated performance against your business needs, and it's expected ROI for your business. It will or will not be a sound purchase based on those two factors like everything else in your shop.

Good Luck!!!!

[SCT]

Re: Pricing

Ez does show a 5x10 table w/ 5hp spindle shown at $13,500. (comparible to your purchase)

Shopsabre shows the 4896 starting at $12,195. According to the quote I recieved from the company, this price is for table, gantry, and carrige only.

My qoute from EZ includes
-4x8 table
-vacuum bed
-10hp vacuum pump
-3.25hp pc router
-2hp dust collector system
-computer w/mach3
-z setter
-bobcad-cam software
-crating and freight
Seems like the complete package to me.

the same setup from shopbot (+servos, -computer) was $21,500.

Drmosh:

I absolutely agree with your recommendation. And thank you for reminding me that actual performance trumps all the figures and numbers.
I will absolutly take the trip to TX to see a machine before buying, I would not do it any other way.

I am still shopping though. I will be going to the sign expo in vegas and want to be as prepared as possible to buy a machine then. I believe I will probably be able to get the best price there. However, EZ will not be there . They will be at the AWFS later this year.

always thankful for the imput! :cheers:

[Joe Crumley]

SCT,

I'm still confused on the price of the EZ. It's not that I doubt your post but my 5'X10' was $9,500. Add on the Columbo Spridle at $4000. Mine came in at, with a few extra's at $14,000. Something isn't adding up here.

Also, I've run a router for years and would encourage you to consider using a spindle. The EZ comes with Mach 3 which is a world away from the small DOS program which drives the Shopbot. I can't tell you how many work hours I've lost due to the little, weak program.

drmosh is right on target with his suggestion. Like he suggested I called EZ and drove down to their little plant to see for myself. I brought materials and files for them to carve. They were very gracious and happy to spend as much time as needed to answer my questions.

If I had a large budget I'd consider MultiCam. However I've been building my company with the PEE SHOOTERS. My first hand experience is EZ is way ahead.





The Shopbot with your add-on's would be what?

[braidmeister]

Here's the skinny on Shopbot:

The company is full of nice people and the support is B+. They've been available for phone support and courtious every time I've called. But if you buy one of these kit, you're going to need the support. Even with five years of Shopbot experience, I had to call last week. It was a software problem. Nothing could be done. This is a regular proplem since the Windows Program & controller are very weak. Ted Hall, the owner, is dedicated to the original little DOS program which is way too small. No matter how many Geco's you slap on their board, it's dinkey.

Joe,
ShopBot hasn't used a DOS interface for a number of years now. Your 5+ year old PRT with 1/4 stepping drivers is not an accurate assessment of ShopBot's current technology & quality. If you are going to compare, do it apples to apples. There are many inaccuracies in your assessment of the ShopBot. You can't compare 7 or 8yr old technology with what is being sold today. The glorified Gecko/Mach/Ascension offering is no different than the upgrade that ShopBot offers for older PRT tools. Retrofit new microstepping drivers to an old 1/4 stepping system and the improvement is dramatic, regardless of the control software. It is in NO way analogous to an Alpha tool, which by the way NEVER ran on a DOS controller. I've done my own testing with Mach3 on my PRT and Geckos. It showed absolutely ZERO difference in cut quality, speed or overall performance than my ShopBot control board with Geckos and the exact same power supply. You should have just kept your ShopBot and put Geckos on it...the EZRouter is clearly a clone of ShopBot's original PRT design going back 7 or 8yrs. Add some green paint and you're all set. It in no way compares to ShopBot's new PRS CNC which makes the EZ look...well...7 or 8yrs old.

For those looking for a new CNC in the same price range as the EZRouter, ShopBot PRS Alpha & ShopSabre, go see a live demo & make up your own mind. You'll know what tool is right for you by seeing it in action, cutting your parts in your material. Ask them to show you how they toolpath it, what design software it comes with etc.

I have several ShopBot CNCs and they make me a lot of money. I cut plastic & hardwood parts for the mouse in FL, carbon for a leading automotive aftermarket and at the moment I am cutting 50,000 letters in Sintra PVC. No toolmarks, cusps, chatter or anything else that I have to make excuses for as the parts go out the door. You don't get to do business with these companies unless you can put out a good product. I've run ShopBot CNCs for 5yrs and have had exactly ZERO days downtime.

-Brady

[ballendo]

Drmosh,

I believe you've just posted the single best message on choosing a CNC router I've ever seen anywhere! EXCELLENT post!

Thank you!

Ballendo

My opinion (and it's only mine, and most people on this forum probably think it's a pretty lame one) is that the speeds, steps, resolution, etc. are too abstract, moderately confusing, and in MANY cases don't equate to what a machine does "in real life, in my shop". You have a business and you know exactly what you need the machine to do in order for it to be a great investment. If the ezRouter machine works as advertised, and gives you the cut quality that you want, you'll probably be hard pressed to find another machine cheaper (that is, so significantly cheaper that it's worth your continued time and energy to look for it). If ezRouter had a 100% money back guarantee on cutting quality, for only an extra 3% cost, would you buy it? Of course you would, because that's only an extra $480 based on your estimate. Which happens to be about the price (probably) of flying to their place in TX for a one-day visit to check out the machine. Sooo....

If you're ready to buy, call them and let them know what you're cutting, what kind of cuts/shapes you need, finish expectations and everything else you need/want it to do. If they say that it will do what you want then give them the following offer:

You fly down there and see them cut similar material. bring a new cutter with you that you've purchased based on their recommendations, along with some samples of the actual acrylic you use in your shop. if it meets your expectaions you put a deposit down on the spot. if it doesnt, then they reimburse you for the airplane ticket.

if they're not willing to do that then call shopbot because I'd bet they would. if *you're* not willing to do that then you're still shopping

Again, it's just my opinion, but I really feel that far too many people get sucked up into an endless loop of numbers/specs/engineering "overanalysis". It's just a machine. Buy it based on it's actual, demonstrated performance against your business needs, and it's expected ROI for your business. It will or will not be a sound purchase based on those two factors like everything else in your shop.

Good Luck!!!!

[Joe Crumley]

Brady,

For those who don't know Brady, he's as much a part of Shopbot as Ted Hall the owner. He writes for them "Bits & Pieces". You can catch him on their Forum where he is their most profilic contriubtor.

For the novices out there, Shopbot is a kit. It's bolted up and it's accuracy varyies. Even if it is dead on square originally, it's going to get off. You'd be time ahead to call your friendly welder, square it up, and have tack weld the gantry up. Otherwise you will be wrenching. None of the real CNC manufacturers would ever attempt a bolted together unit. Just read their Forum to see how many differeent problems keep poping up. Since it's a kit each unit has it's own personality. Some folks like Brady, are amazingly adept keep them cooking. They have the best Forum on the market but it's necessary in order to keep the thing running.

Once I purchased my Shopbot, I quickly picked up their windows program when it was offered. It was unstable. That thing would hickup every few minutes or loose all memory during a long runs. You'd better make a zero point on the table or you'd have to start all over. Throw your carving material in the scrap box. It was a nightmare. Hope those days are gone for ever.

If memory serves, getting Shopbot to move into the world standard G Code was a struggle. So they invented the Alpha which was much faster but the cuts were just as poor as the original old PRT. Get out the sandpaper and patience. It wouldn't make a smooth radius cut for nothing. It was only when the Ascension 1000 hit the market with increased speeds, beautiful smooth cuts and did ShopBotters see the light. Now Shopbot was in a flurry. They'd first of all have to find a way to get their pulse rate up. Their new Alpha was a fast direct dirve to the motors which made it difficult to get it all configured up for those smoother cuts.

Tool pathing: EZ is strong on V Crave Pro and Enroute. Shopbot is providing their nice little priority software and ArtCam. Each of company offers other software.

As to the attempt to run Mach on your Shopbot, there isn't a way to know what to expect. What I do know is the Ascension coupled with Mach is spectacular when coupled up with either the old PR or PRT. I'd doubt just adding Mach would be very affective since the limits are in the control box. Shopbot made a good move by incorporating Gecko's. It was a fight but it finally happened.

Does anyone need a good, hardly used, Shopbot controll box? I have one for sale cheap!

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

[braidmeister]

Joe,
The fact that I voluntarily write a column for the ShopBot community from time to time, hardly makes me as integral as Ted Hall...I run a job Shop outside Philly...Last I checked ShopBot was in NC. There's a difference between being enthusiastic about something you own (like a Harley etc) and being a salesman for a company 500 miles away...

You can't compare your old 1/4 stepping DOS powered CNC to a new microstepping tool with positional feedback. You can't expect to run a Windows-based controller on an old DOS machine and get it to work properly. You can't even run Mach reliably on a slow computer....and you certainly can't run Mach using SB electronics. You are confusing technology, Joe....stick to the signmaking...you're good at that.

Ah yes..The glorious Ascension...It's an enclosure with 4 Geckos, a breakout board and new power supply, connected with Mach. This is something that anybody can piece together for under $750....a little more if you don't re-use your power supply. This is an upgrade for older tools...and has nothing to do with the new tools being offered. This is like getting on here and complaining about your 1973 Chevy C10 truck and how great JC Whitney is, when the original poster is looking to buy a new truck.

ShopBot makes a good tool...and merely owning one doesn't mean that you know how to run or maintain it. They have been around for about 10 years, and paved the way for every other CNC router mentioned in this thread. 5yrs ago when I bought my tool, there was only Techno and few others that offered a CNC in the price range. Now everybody & their brother can slap together a CNC with a stick welder, a couple of Geckos and Mach3 and they're suddenly in the CNC machine business. I notice that few have a forum of their own, gracefully riding the curtails of the Mach forum and how many users there are on it...(nothing wrong with Mach. I own it & use it on my mill.)

As I said before. Go see a demo. Let the machine and parts coming off the machine be the judge. Ask lots of questions.

-Brady

[Joe Crumley]

Brady,

I'm still helping StClair Designer Cast Stone run my old windows based PRT. It's what Shopbot offered at the time. I wouldn't even attempt running Mach on this old unit. I believe that was your statement that you tried running it and it didn't offer much. I wouldn't even try.

There are other CNC's in this price range that should be considered since they are more than competavie in pricing and performance. ShapSabre is one of these. www.shopsabre.com They offer both Stepper and Servo's drives as well as a proven tool changer. Neither of which shopbot offers. Well shopbot made an attempt at a tool changer but quickly gave up on that since they couldn't get it to work. EZ also has a stout all welded together unit that was cutting fast and smooth at a discount price. www.ez-router.com

I like all the folks at shopbot but their product, from my five year experience, is a poor compared to the competition

J.
www.normansignco.com

[Switcher]

Why would anyone buy a cnc that just bolts together, like a shopbot?

If it's not welded, how long before it's out of toleranece?

I don't own a shopbot or an ez-router, & I'm not knocking either machine, thing is, I would buy an ez-router!

So what they (ez-router) don't have a forum. Anyone can create a forum!








.

[Gerald_D]

ShopBot's forum is heavily manipulated to help sell the machine. Once I tricked a suspicious poster into sending me a mail so that I could check his IP address - it was identical that of Brady (Braidmeister) above. Would he help to pad out a forum with a couple of fictituous posters.....no, I am not suggesting that, am I? ;-)

Brady has a business relationship with Shopbot that goes further than a monthly column for them. He is also the producer and narrator of the PartWizard video supplied with new ShopBots. Furthermore, he appears to be one of their roving on-site assemblers - I doubt that this is done as a free voluntary service. (ShopBot also gives financial kickbacks to users who have demo'ed their machines to new buyers.)

ShopBot has been extremely successful in developing a "lets-hold-hands-around-the-campfire" cult around their products. It is all about everyone being part of a bigger brotherhood with camps and jamborees. When ShopBot ships a defective or wrong part nobody says a bad word about them, when they fix the error, then they get huge kudos on their forum. They don't seem too concerned to get it right the first time - they seem to know they get bigger praise for getting it right the second time.

I got banned from their forum, for "posting several messages that were misleading and incorrect without making any apparent attempt to verify the accuracy of what he was saying. This misinformation distracted ShopBotters and required us to spend considerable time and energy responding to the concerns of the ShopBot community. Life is too short for this kind of unhelpfulness." Apparently they wanted to approve my posts before I made them? If they told me why my info was misleading and inaccurate, I could have put a retraction on the forum. I suspect that this thread,
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/27/15390.html , was the main reason that I got banned. I still believe there are a lot of ShopBot supplied spindles that won't trip when they overheat. But stuff like this may not be said in their brotherhood.

Where did my mood toward ShopBot go sour? When they advertised used motors (factory-tested) for sale and I bought four. Those motors arrived filthy and nobody could have done a visual inspection before dispatch. Furthermore, two of the motors had some of the leadwires sheared off flush with the casing and there was no way they could have been tested like that. A totally shabby service. Makes one wonder about their warranty clause "ShopBot reserves the right to use new or ShopBot remanufactured components for warranty replacement". The opening sentence of the warranty is also telling - ".....system will perform in substantial compliance with the instructions and documentation supplied" Note, not full compliance, only "substantial".

There is a lot of smoke & mirrors around ShopBot and their ambassadors.

[drmosh]

I'm not sure if I fully agree with Gerald_D, but he is speaking from personal experiences that I will openly admit I do not have. I do not own a ShopBot, I chose to go with a custom-built machine for a variety of reasons. I plan on posting a review of my machine in the next 60 days. I looked at ShopBot very seriously (and ezRouter, too) before going with a custom unit. Had I purchased an "off-the-shelf" system, it probably would have been an ezRouter.

All that said, I have learned an amazing amount off the SB forums - probably more than any other single source. Even if some of the people have an unusually close relationship to ShopBot, they've generally seemed pretty reasonable in most discussions. I would agree that there's a lot of "religion" on their forum, and that many have a high degree of tolerance to problems that I would have found unacceptable. But that's just me - I've seen plenty of similar examples of brand-loyalty "beyond all logical reason" in forums about sportscars, guitars, etc.

Ted Hall and ShopBot have been served well by their user community. It's been an extremely smart business investment for them to foster that group - whether it is one of relevant value to others like myself or not - it has clearly been valuable to them. It probably started out as a thing of necessity in the early days of SB, but it's much more than that now.

My final comment about SB isn't one of "buyer beware", but is a more general comment about their market. The day's of SB being the only viable alternative to large, overpriced CNC routers are long gone. There are several other manufactures (each with their own unique problems, to be sure) that are offering very compelling, very competitive product lines to ShopBot's. Further (and maybe more importantly) you can be 100% certain that the big name manufacturers are watching the market segmentation VERY CLOSELY. If they see too much growth at the lower-end "entry" side of the market one of them is absolutely (you can bet on it) going to "eat their own young" as we say in the U.S. and agressively enter into that segment with a cost-competitive lineup. My own opinon, after looking at the new models that SB just released, is that I was mostly unimpressed with the improvements. THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY ARENT GOOD MACHINES... I just expected that with the marketplace getting so much more competitive, they would have shown greater innovation and initiative.

ShopBot is a good company with a great (and vocal) set of users. They offer a fairly priced product that seems to deliver the performance and features many people find right for them. But if they aren't super careful, someone else is going to eat their lunch.

Gee, what a sermon!

[Gregg/Atl.Sign]

Hi
Well here my input on this i have a EZ-Router
-5X10 table
-vacuum bed
-10hp vacuum pump
-5hp spindle
-2hp dust collector system
-computer w/mach3
-z setter
-bobcad-cam software
-crating and freight
$22k
Ihave a friend with a ShopBot and it is not half the Table
and it costs more then mine! LOL
Gregg