[johnyac]

Greetings all,
I am brand new to CNC milling. Decided on the PCNC770 for its size and power requirements. At the "getting quotes" phase from Tormach before purchase. My initial budget is 16k. I picked around in the premium kit Tormach offers for the 770. Removed items like the arms, tool tray, cables, monitor, keyboard, Kress engraver, clamp kit(have one already), oil and coolant (buy local save shipping?).
I did opt for auto oilier, camera mount, scanner software, and the budget passive probe.
Cut a little off shipping costs by opting to pick up the heavy stuff at my local freight terminal.

With my budget, I can only get the power draw bar or the 4th axis kit.

Which is better to have for the first time user still learning CNC control and using the software?

If anyone is familiar with Tormachs package deals, is there something else i wont use as a beginner on the software side that could help cut costs?

[mrquacker]

Draw bar for sure. It will save you tons of time.

[SomeWhatLost]

Draw bar for sure. It will save you tons of time.

while I do agree, the power draw bar is great and all, but it wont help you much if you absolutely need a 4th axis...

so my answer to you about the great PDB vs 4th Axis Deathmatch would be to look at your needs and go from there...
ie I don't know what your needs are, therefore I can't help...
I can only say that I was very recently in the same boat, and I choose the PDB...

to cut costs, you may want to cut out all the software...
do you already have anything that would work as CAD? there are a bunch of free/cheap CAD/"CAD Like" programs out there... there is nothing magical about alibre... I like alibre (some days...), but still there are other cheaper options...
do you already have anything that would work as CAM? there are a bunch of cheaper CAM programs out there... there is nothing magical about Sprut... for simple stuff, I actually prefer CamBAM, it is only like $150, but I can blast through simple machine ops in seconds... for more advanced 3d type stuff I do prefer Sprut as it is easier, but CamBAM can do those too, just takes more time and thinking on my part...
the CNCScanner is a really cool toy, but I have found it is only somewhat useful... I would skip the licensed version of the software and just use the free one, as for the camera and mount, I just picked up a cheapo USB microscope camera off of amazon for like $20, and as for the mount, um, well, You do (or at least will) have a CNC mill... I am sure you can come up with something...

[Steve Seebold]

Greetings all,
I am brand new to CNC milling. Decided on the PCNC770 for its size and power requirements. At the "getting quotes" phase from Tormach before purchase. My initial budget is 16k. I picked around in the premium kit Tormach offers for the 770. Removed items like the arms, tool tray, cables, monitor, keyboard, Kress engraver, clamp kit(have one already), oil and coolant (buy local save shipping?).
I did opt for auto oilier, camera mount, scanner software, and the budget passive probe.
Cut a little off shipping costs by opting to pick up the heavy stuff at my local freight terminal.

With my budget, I can only get the power draw bar or the 4th axis kit.

Which is better to have for the first time user still learning CNC control and using the software?

If anyone is familiar with Tormachs package deals, is there something else i wont use as a beginner on the software side that could help cut costs?

First off, what kind of work are you going to do?

In my opinion, you don't need the scanner, you don't need the probe, you don't need the camera mount.

You DO need the keyboard, the monitor, and at least one arm.

If you're a first timer, there is a lot of stuff in the deluxe kit that I would call OVERKILL.

Before you place your order, talk to someone who already has a machine and discuss the type of work you plan on doing. You may find that what you are buying won't work for you. If you'll send me a PM I'll send you my phone number and I'll be happy to talk to you about what you may or may not need. There is no point buying something just to leave it sitting on the shelf because it looks cool, and then wishing you hadn't bought it so you could have bought something you really need.

When I bought my machine, I had 30 plus years of CNC machining, so I had a pretty good idea of what I needed/wanted, but I have added a couple of items since I took delivery.

[David Bord]

Unless you absolutely NEED the 4th axis, it's not even up for debate. Trust me, you will use the Pdb 99% more and it will make the experience of using your machine much more pleasant.

I have both, and I almost never use the 4th axis with the machining I do.

David

[Don Clement]

IMO the PDB one of the most valuable and useful additions to the Tormach I have bought so far. However I do need and use the 4th axis, also need and use SprutCam for 3D and BTW Solidworks CAD. I couldn’t really do without either the 4th axis or SprutCAM. I did do without the PDB because it didn’t come along until several years after I bought the PCNC 1100. One can do work without the PDB, but once you get the PDB you wonder how you ever did without it.

Don

[twocik]

Maybe Tormach will have a black friday sale....

I'd say the PDB would see more use. However if you add a trunnion to your 4th axis, that could eliminate a lot of fixturing and save time without having to remount each mop. I'd rather the 4th axis mount on the right vs the left, still not sure why they chose that side. Another great feature would be a faster rapid, I think it rapids at 2 IPM (?)

[johnyac]

Thanks to all of you for responding,
I have a choice, new car, or the Mill. So I'm looking at the mill.
As for software, BamCam looks interesting, will give the trial version a run.
Dropping back to the basic package eliminates Sprutcam and gives Cut 2D. But this allows me to buy the 4th axis and the PD now.

Anyone run Cut2D or should I just drop it all together as well?

Not interested in the arms, easy to make. Have a couple of extra lcd monitors, keyboards, and a laptop, no need for more.
As for the type of work wanted, no real direct idea. Enjoy working on a couple of older cars I have. Making small items for them out of aluminum, plastic, and steel, appeals to me. An HVAC mechanic by trade, enjoy making things work right. Would like for the parts to grow in size and complexity as my experience does. The 770 seems like a good fit, far better than the bench top hobby machines.
The Camera really appeals to me just for the gasket demo ran on the Tormach video. I like gaskets, weird that way.
The passive touch probe looks like a faster way to copy parts than using a caliper and drawing in the part dimensions. Is there a better way?

Cost chopping gets me closer to the 1100. But buying it would mean doing electrical work I am not ready for. Adding an exterior load center to the meter socket or double tapping off of the meter lugs (allowed here). I do want to add a panel in the garage eventually, only if this is where I retire.

32084 - PCNC 770 Series 3 - Freight Additional PCNC Oiler: PCNC-A Automatic Oiler $7,059.00
31191 - 770 Machine Stand - Freight Additional $1,184.70
31192 - PCNC 770 Coolant Kit - Freight Additional $512.37
31446 - Lifting Bar $93.21
30290 - 4th Axis Kit - 6" Table $1,287.83
30272 - Tailstock for Rotary Table (Medium) $118.80
31721 - 4 Jaw Chuck for 6" Table $287.90
31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3 Machine Controller OS: 31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3 $715.00
30616 - Shuttle Jog Controller $84.02
32394 - TTS Tooling for the Deluxe Package $627.75
32284 - CNC Operator's Set with Tool Assistant Set $795.00
32436 - PCNC 770 Power Drawbar $1,193.50
31728 - Power Drawbar Foot Pedal Kit $68.45
31453 - Tormach CNC Scanner Software only $368.50
32309 - Passive Probe w /10mm TTS mount $236.50
31965 - Cut2D v1.5 $149.00
Total $14,781.53
Shipping around $700.00. Cant pull up the exact quote at the moment, but it would be off due to adding the draw bar.
$15481.53
Dropping the Cut2d and the camera software, then adding back in the Sprutcam, gets me just over budget at $16004.03.

32085 - PCNC 1100 Series 3 - Freight Additional PCNC Oiler: PCNC-A - Automatic Oiler $8,689.00
30297 - PCNC 1100 Deluxe Machine Stand - Freight Additional $1,644.50
31446 - Lifting Bar $93.21
31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3
Machine Controller OS: 31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3 $715.00
32284 - CNC Operator's Set with Tool Assistant Set $795.00
31965 - Cut2D v1.5 $149.00
31706 - PCNC 1100 Power Drawbar $1,193.50
31728 - Power Drawbar Foot Pedal Kit $68.45
30290 - 4th Axis Kit - 6" Table $1,287.83
32394 - TTS Tooling for the Deluxe Package $627.75
30272 - Tailstock for Rotary Table (Medium) $118.80
Total $15,382.04

Dropped the Chuck to save a little more, buy one later. No probe or camera software. Minus one tooling package. Add an additional 1000-1500 to install the electrical myself and try keeping totally motivated in the process.

[dbrija]

Thanks to all of you for responding,
I have a choice, new car, or the Mill. So I'm looking at the mill.
As for software, BamCam looks interesting, will give the trial version a run.
Dropping back to the basic package eliminates Sprutcam and gives Cut 2D. But this allows me to buy the 4th axis and the PD now.

Anyone run Cut2D or should I just drop it all together as well?

Not interested in the arms, easy to make. Have a couple of extra lcd monitors, keyboards, and a laptop, no need for more.
As for the type of work wanted, no real direct idea. Enjoy working on a couple of older cars I have. Making small items for them out of aluminum, plastic, and steel, appeals to me. An HVAC mechanic by trade, enjoy making things work right. Would like for the parts to grow in size and complexity as my experience does. The 770 seems like a good fit, far better than the bench top hobby machines.
The Camera really appeals to me just for the gasket demo ran on the Tormach video. I like gaskets, weird that way.
The passive touch probe looks like a faster way to copy parts than using a caliper and drawing in the part dimensions. Is there a better way?

Cost chopping gets me closer to the 1100. But buying it would mean doing electrical work I am not ready for. Adding an exterior load center to the meter socket or double tapping off of the meter lugs (allowed here). I do want to add a panel in the garage eventually, only if this is where I retire.

32084 - PCNC 770 Series 3 - Freight Additional PCNC Oiler: PCNC-A Automatic Oiler $7,059.00
31191 - 770 Machine Stand - Freight Additional $1,184.70
31192 - PCNC 770 Coolant Kit - Freight Additional $512.37
31446 - Lifting Bar $93.21
30290 - 4th Axis Kit - 6" Table $1,287.83
30272 - Tailstock for Rotary Table (Medium) $118.80
31721 - 4 Jaw Chuck for 6" Table $287.90
31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3 Machine Controller OS: 31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3 $715.00
30616 - Shuttle Jog Controller $84.02
32394 - TTS Tooling for the Deluxe Package $627.75
32284 - CNC Operator's Set with Tool Assistant Set $795.00
32436 - PCNC 770 Power Drawbar $1,193.50
31728 - Power Drawbar Foot Pedal Kit $68.45
31453 - Tormach CNC Scanner Software only $368.50
32309 - Passive Probe w /10mm TTS mount $236.50
31965 - Cut2D v1.5 $149.00
Total $14,781.53
Shipping around $700.00. Cant pull up the exact quote at the moment, but it would be off due to adding the draw bar.
$15481.53
Dropping the Cut2d and the camera software, then adding back in the Sprutcam, gets me just over budget at $16004.03.

32085 - PCNC 1100 Series 3 - Freight Additional PCNC Oiler: PCNC-A - Automatic Oiler $8,689.00
30297 - PCNC 1100 Deluxe Machine Stand - Freight Additional $1,644.50
31446 - Lifting Bar $93.21
31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3
Machine Controller OS: 31520 - Tormach Machine Controller w/Mach3 $715.00
32284 - CNC Operator's Set with Tool Assistant Set $795.00
31965 - Cut2D v1.5 $149.00
31706 - PCNC 1100 Power Drawbar $1,193.50
31728 - Power Drawbar Foot Pedal Kit $68.45
30290 - 4th Axis Kit - 6" Table $1,287.83
32394 - TTS Tooling for the Deluxe Package $627.75
30272 - Tailstock for Rotary Table (Medium) $118.80
Total $15,382.04

Dropped the Chuck to save a little more, buy one later. No probe or camera software. Minus one tooling package. Add an additional 1000-1500 to install the electrical myself and try keeping totally motivated in the process.

If you have a decent PC sitting around, especially with a native parallel port, you could consider saving the $700 for the Tormach controller. I went that route with zero regrets (nearly two years now...)

[tbaker2500]

With regards to Cut2d- Fantastic simple package, easy to learn and use. But, after about a week I realized I needed VCarve Pro, the big brother of Cut2d. It sounds like Cambam is similar?
I own both Vcarve and Sprutcam. Sprut is more powerful, but more complicated. Vcarve lets me get CAM work done extremely quickly.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I recently took a second (third? fourth?) look at CamBam, and quickly ruled it out for what seems to me a MAJOR flaw. It appears that when you load a new drawing, you MUST delete and re-create ALL machining operations, as it seems necessary to select all segments of each path, convert to polyline, and "join" the segments for CamBam to generate a correct toolpath. With SheetCAM, OTOH, I can modify and re-load the drawing as many times as I like, and all machining ops remain perfectly intact, with the one exception of sometimes losing manually set start points. As many of my jobs have dozens of individual machining operations, using CamBam would cost me hundreds of hours of time.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Steve Seebold]

I recently took a second (third? fourth?) look at CamBam, and quickly ruled it out for what seems to me a MAJOR flaw. It appears that when you load a new drawing, you MUST delete and re-create ALL machining operations, as it seems necessary to select all segments of each path, convert to polyline, and "join" the segments for CamBam to generate a correct toolpath. With SheetCAM, OTOH, I can modify and re-load the drawing as many times as I like, and all machining ops remain perfectly intact, with the one exception of sometimes losing manually set start points. As many of my jobs have dozens of individual machining operations, using CamBam would cost me hundreds of hours of time.

Regards,
Ray L.

Why would you want to continuously modify a drawing to make a different part? That makes absolutely no sense.

You should be able to create a new drawing for a new part. Weird.

I can make several operations om my CadCam system, but I have a REAL CadCam system. I use GibbsCam.

I guess some people like to use the free/cheap Cam software. I just don't understand it. You just spent $15,000.00 on a machine and then you skimp on your programming software. From what I hear,SprutCam from Tormach is pretty good software, and reasonably priced. Although I have heard the learning curve is pretty steep.

There is lots of bootlegged software out there as well. I know a site where I can get almost all of the latest and greatest CadCam stuff for less than $30.00.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Why would you want to continuously modify a drawing to make a different part? That makes absolutely no sense.

You should be able to create a new drawing for a new part. Weird.

I can make several operations om my CadCam system, but I have a REAL CadCam system. I use GibbsCam.

I guess some people like to use the free/cheap Cam software. I just don't understand it. You just spent $15,000.00 on a machine and then you skimp on your programming software. From what I hear,SprutCam from Tormach is pretty good software, and reasonably priced. Although I have heard the learning curve is pretty steep.

There is lots of bootlegged software out there as well. I know a site where I can get almost all of the latest and greatest CadCam stuff for less than $30.00.

Steve,

I never said I want to "continuously modify a drawing to make a different part" - I don't know how you could read that. But I do not always get my drawings perfect on the first try, and often make minor running changes, as requirements change, or I need to add features. I will typically go through perhaps a dozen cycles of drawings changes and re-generating G-code before I get all the details exactly right, and have a program that generates perfect parts reliably. I'm not making one-offs, I'm doing low-volume production.

"There is lots of bootlegged software out there as well. I know a site where I can get almost all of the latest and greatest CadCam stuff for less than $30.00." - That's great, if you don't mind - quite literally - stealing from the program authors.

Regards,
Ray L.

[kevinro]

30290 - 4th Axis Kit - 6" Table $1,287.83
30272 - Tailstock for Rotary Table (Medium) $118.80
31721 - 4 Jaw Chuck for 6" Table $287.90

I did your same shopping list on my PCNC1100. Have had the machine for about a year, have used the 4th axis three times! Won't call it a waste, but it turned out to be less useful than I expected. When you need it, you need it. However, in my situation the need wasn't there.

Honestly, if you are new to CNC, you are probably better off getting the4th axis later. There is no savings in purchasing them right now, and you are going to be learning a LOT of stuff for the next year. Unless you have a defined need for these, I would wait.

Two thumbs up for the power draw bar. Best accessory on your list.

If you are thinking about doing the 4th axis, then you will need something like SprutCAM to make it work. The inexpensive CAM packages don't handle the 4th axis. So I would recommend dropping the 4th axis right now, but getting SprutCAM if you plan to get it someday. Otherwise, when you do go for the 4th axis, you will also have to upgrade and relearn the software. Getting the good software now and waiting on the 4th is a better plan. The inverse will cost you more in the long run.

Kevin

[Don Clement]

If you are thinking about doing the 4th axis, then you will need something like SprutCAM to make it work. The inexpensive CAM packages don't handle the 4th axis. So I would recommend dropping the 4th axis right now, but getting SprutCAM if you plan to get it someday. Otherwise, when you do go for the 4th axis, you will also have to upgrade and relearn the software. Getting the good software now and waiting on the 4th is a better plan. The inverse will cost you more in the long run.

Kevin

For me it is not really necessary to have a CAM program (e.g. SprutCAM) to utilize the 4th axis. For example I use the 4th axis 8” RT to index parts. In that case it is a matter of writing G-code to do that. Indexing the 4th axis using G-code is very simple remembering it’s the same as one would do when using a RT manually: always approach from the same side to compensate for worm gear backlash. Remember the days of manual machining before ball screws?

Don

[Steve Seebold]

Steve,

"There is lots of bootlegged software out there as well. I know a site where I can get almost all of the latest and greatest CadCam stuff for less than $30.00." - That's great, if you don't mind - quite literally - stealing from the program authors.

Regards,
Ray L.

I think using bootlegged is OK to learn with, but when you start to make money with it, NOW it's time to buy it.

When I started using GibbsCam, there was no bootlegged stuff available, so I had to jump in with both feet. My original investment was about $6,500.00. Now I have a little over $18,000.00 invested. Expensive? Yes. Am I sorry I did it? No.

As for your redo's to get the part right, can't you run a graphic to see what the cut part is going to look like before you put the cutter to the metal?

[kevinro]

For me it is not really necessary to have a CAM program (e.g. SprutCAM) to utilize the 4th axis. For example I use the 4th axis 8” RT to index parts. In that case it is a matter of writing G-code to do that. Indexing the 4th axis using G-code is very simple remembering it’s the same as one would do when using a RT manually: always approach from the same side to compensate for worm gear backlash. Remember the days of manual machining before ball screws?

Don

Depends on what level he is expecting to jump in at.

I am an expert at x86 assembler code. However, I have other things to do in life, so I now use higher level programs so I don't have to do assembler code anymore. I can get in there and hack around with it when needed, but honestly I want the software tools to deal with all of that drivel.

Same thing with G-Code.

[Don Clement]

Depends on what level he is expecting to jump in at.

I am an expert at x86 assembler code. However, I have other things to do in life, so I now use higher level programs so I don't have to do assembler code anymore. I can get in there and hack around with it when needed, but honestly I want the software tools to deal with all of that drivel.

Same thing with G-Code.

I try not to have expectations of what others do as I have heard that expectations are just premeditated resentments.
For me knowing G-code is a very useful addition when using my Solidworks with SprutCAM. Like I said that was my experience. YMMV.

I grew up on the Osbourn 8008 books, know how to use Karnaugh maps, learned to program on 80 column punch cards and used to be able to do two’s complement arithmetic. BTW there is nothing like playing Zork on my 64 bit workstation running Windows 7 with Quadro FX 3800 graphics card and dual displays. The plovers egg appears so much more real with the right software and hardware tools. ;-)

A hollow voice says "Plugh".

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCpr_QHAqks]Big bang theory - Sheldon playing text adventures - YouTube[/ame]

[BAMCNC.COM]

Is it ok to talk about pirating here?

[nitewatchman]

Arggg - Matey!