[rodjava]

Request for Quote

Opening date: July 3, 2009
Closing date: July 17, 2009

Material: Delrin Acetal Rod, White Color, 1" Diameter

Material supplier: Shop

Quantity Quote for: 250-500 including delivery to San Francisco, CA94134. Please quote for all requested quantities.

Delivery: 3 inspection pieces due 7 days (flexible) after acceptance. I will pay for overnight postage for all inspection pieces. Estimated initial order of 500 pieces due within 14 days (flexible) after acceptance.

Projected reorder: Estimate 100-500 per month.

Machining requirements: Parts to be free from burrs dirt and oil. Except for the ¼ -20 thread, tolerances are not critical.

The drawings that I initially provide should be used for reference only. The final part has been slightly modified and not indicated in these drawing. I will supply a complete and final design part to be used for duplication.

I will also need the services of your draftman to make a complete set of Autocad drawing for the final part.

Attachment 83740

Attachment 83741

Contact: Rodney Java

Email: rodneyjava at yahoo dot com

Address: Rodney Java
114 Arleta Ave
San Francisco, CA94134
415 350 5282

[rodjava]

The following attachemts did not transmit with orginal message.

Request for Quote

Opening date: July 3, 2009
Closing date: July 17, 2009

Material: Delrin Acetal Rod, White Color, 1" Diameter

Material supplier: Shop

Quantity Quote for: 250-500 including delivery to San Francisco, CA94134. Please quote for all requested quantities.

Delivery: 3 inspection pieces due 7 days (flexible) after acceptance. I will pay for overnight postage for all inspection pieces. Estimated initial order of 500 pieces due within 14 days (flexible) after acceptance.

Projected reorder: Estimate 100-500 per month.

Machining requirements: Parts to be free from burrs dirt and oil. Except for the ¼ -20 thread, tolerances are not critical.

Design notes: Please note that ¼ -20 threads is a blind bottom thread. (Not indicated on drawing)

The drawings that I initially provide should be used for reference only. The final part has been slightly modified and not indicated in these drawing. I will supply a complete and final design part to be used for duplication.

Contact: Rodney Java

Email: rodneyjava at yahoo dot com

Address: Rodney Java
114 Arleta Ave
San Francisco, CA94134
415 350 5282

1kc2_Part.dwg

1kc2_Part-Layout1.pdf

[Pyrokuda]

Quote sent!

Have a great 4th!

Brad

Briscoe Machining LLC
757-615-6216
[email protected]

[rodjava]

Brad,
I acknowledge your quote.
I will award the job at the end of the bidding deadline.

Rod

[Donkey Hotey]

Rodney, my compliments to you sir! That is the most professional RFQ I've ever seen posted here--very thorough. You should get exactly what you want from it.

Just a comment on the threads: I see a very small wall thickness where the threaded hole intersects the bore. My fear is that the plastic will deform at that thin wall portion, during machining. If the threading is done last, it could cause a bulge in the back wall. If the threading is done first, the remaining web could bulge or tear during the creation of the larger bore.

Maybe that's not an issue on your final design but it caught my eye. Good luck with the quote.

[rodjava]

Greg,
Thanks for the props.
Also, for the heads up on the wall thickness. Fortunately, we haven't run into this problem with the past 1000 pieces. It might just be the way the machine shop produced them.

Take care,

Rodney

[justice25]

Sent PM with quote

[rodjava]

This RQF has been awarded.
Thank you to every shop that responded.
I will keep all contact information for future RFQ's

I will not be in a position to disclose any of the details.

Keep American Alive with US made parts.

Rodney Java

[Matt@RFR]

Rodney, can you atleast give us a hint at the winning price per part/per quantity? I really thought I had a chance at this one...apparently not.

[rodjava]

Matt,

As you probably know by the specifications, this part was a prime candidate for the mold making process.

The awarded shop cleverly suggested a lower price per piece when initially machined and a similar price per piece when molded.

My investment in the mold would be very minimal knowing that my price per piece would be higher than a typical molded piece price.

I hope my explanation makes sense without divulging the actual unit price which should remain confidential.

Rodney Java
San Francisco

[Runner4404spd]

sadly this kind of rfq doesn't keep america alive. what you ended up doing is misleading alot of people into thinking they have a shot at this. sure you had it quoted and made in the usa, but you wasted a bunch of peoples time when in reality its mold job and should have been requested as such. suck up the mold costs and make your parts. this isn't the first time i've seen you quote this part, and if you had only a run of 200 or so then yes a cnc would be cheaper then shelling out for a mold. but the part is 3 ops, and that will require 3 fixtures. or at a minimum a rotary axis. alot of guys like myself went and had material quoted, spent time figuring out the setups, only to find out that you went with a mold shop, which is not what you originally asked for.

[rodjava]

Runner4404spd,
I respect what you have to say.

I have had 1000's of these parts machined from a previous RFQ in 2008-2009.

Todays economics forces US machine shops to explore alternative and creative machining and pricing schemes. Without it, I would be out of business because of the higher cost. I'm feeling the effects of this bad economy just like you.

I'm just glad that it was offered to me. Now two American companies are still in business, paying taxes and making a effort to turn things around.

Like I said. I respect what you have to say and admire you for speaking out.

I remain,

Rodney Java
San Francisco
An American, doing business with other American companies.

[Matt@RFR]

Runner, thanks for that. I was in the same boat...spent several hours designing a 4th axis fixture to run 20 parts per load. I was confident because this seems to be one of those jobs that the hack shops at $20/hr wouldn't touch just to lose it to another process. Such is life.

[Runner4404spd]

Don't get me wrong, i am glad the work stayed in the US and i'm no stranger to creative pricing schemes. my only gripe is with how this was proposed. if you ultimately wanted a molded part vs a machined part, then ask for it. i work with alot of short run mold companies and this was proposed to them, but i couldn't get pricing back in time before the rfq ended. ultimately too, if you know what your yearly demand is, if you structure an rfq such that alot of parts get awarded with a timed delivery then your pricing would be completely different and probably would have opened up more doors for you and probably would have netted you a better profit margin on your parts.

i had an RFQ posted here for 65,000 nuts. i had companies send me their machine lists first and then i weeded them out knowing who could realistically compete on the work. i had everyone from manual machinists to multi spindle automatic companies trying to bid on this order. and as i suspected, the manual guys i sent the prints to came back with a no bid. the bar feed lathe guys were about 250% too high and the screw machine guys were 50% too high and the multi spindle guys fought it out amongst themselves with pricing and lead time. i had over 600 replies for the prints. i sent it out to probably 120 companies, ultimately i wanted to prescreen the responders becuase i knew a manual guy couldn't compete, with a multi spindle machine. i too had left the business here in the states, but didn't waste alot of peoples time having them quote when i knew they wouldn't be competitive.

the bar feed guys, manual guys and screw machine guys, emailled me multiple times and begged me to let them quote it even though i warned them they wouldn't be competitive. ultimately i wish i knew the direction you wanted to go, i either wouldn't have quoted or went a totally different way.

[rodjava]

Runner4404spd,
Thank you for your well thought out detailed explanation.

I will keep your contact information for any future RFQs. I'm sure your shop is top notch.

When Matt@RFR ask me to divulge the details of the awarded bid, I thought is was an innapropritate request. I did however state a few of the particulars which started this interesting conversation.

I will make it my rule not to respond to such request in the future.

Rod
San Francisco
"Proud to be an American"

[Runner4404spd]

Rod,

i see no problem in letting people know what the job went for. i was more than happy to let people know on my rfq that the 65000 nuts went for .42 ea. some shops were curious as to why they were cheaper and didn't get it and i explained to them that

1. they were too far away and shipping would have added to the overall cost of the part to be higher than the .42 that i awarded it for.
2. they were slower on the delivery than the company that quoted .42 and i needed them to fill a certain schedule.
3. the shop who ended up with the contract sent me a sample of their work that they had previously run so i would know they could do it.

disclosing the winning bid allows shops to learn where they need to improve their process. if one guy is charging $30 hour and tells you each part is $30.00 then clearly thats not the guy you want to use. if another guy is charging you .12 cents each and nothing else, clearly he missed something and although cheap will probably drop the ball or tell you later that it didn't include shipping, fixtures, molds, whatever. then there might be a guy who charges $100/hr but has good equipment, good software, some machine time he needs to fill and might come in around $1.50 per part. ultimately that should be the guy to get it and people should know that the part went for $1.50

your particular part needed 3 setups to be done completely or the use of one fixture on a rotary axis. i doubt that anyone with a 5 axis machine would quote this as the part is not very complicated and like you mentioned should be a molded part.

again, allowing people to know where the part price is allows people to learn what they should and should not quote on. some manual guys although they can do the part and would probably make a chunk of change if it was 10 pcs, can't compete with a cnc that can make 20-50 at a time for a 200-500 pcs run. that being said a cnc can't compete with a mold shop that can make 500+ pcs with a single mold charge and some plastic cost. economies of scale are very important in the machining world and posting the selling price allows people to learn this.

[rodjava]

Runner4404spd,

We should be on a first name basis by now.

I see your point. However it's from a different perspective. It's helpful within your industry. Someone in my position would have little leverage when comes to considering and accepting bids.

Like you mentioned. Every shop has it's own unique characteristics and price schemes.

Besides, if I disclosed that the part cost only .10 or $10, there would be somebody who would think it's their duty to challenge my decision. It can get sticky don't you think?

Rod

[Donkey Hotey]

your particular part needed 3 setups to be done completely or the use of one fixture on a rotary axis. i doubt that anyone with a 5 axis machine would quote this as the part is not very complicated and like you mentioned should be a molded part.

Yup, I knew this job was going to go cheap, so I didn't even bother looking at the 4th axis fixture. I knew I'd have to amortize that cost across the number of parts in the quote and that would make me seem like I was too pricey. I figured it was going to be won by brute force, done by cheap labor, manually, in multiple setups, on an 'extra' Bridgeport sitting in the corner.

So if the part is injection molded, who is going to do the threading? Or do they mold the threads? If the threads are cast in place, I'm curious how the mold cost amortized into the whole thing. A simple mold would be low cost but--unless I'm mistaken--threads add a whole new dimension to the complexity of the mold. That factors into the ultimate price. If I owned an injection molding machine, I don't know if I'd fire it up for 250-500 pieces. Again, the final quantity isn't matching the original RFQ.

[Runner4404spd]

Rod,

disclosing the cost helps you side as well, because you don't have to weed through a ton of over priced quotes, or quotes from people that bid and really can't do the work. i'm on both sides of this fence. some stuff i do in house, some stuff i outsource. disclosing your final purchase price would only hurt you if the person or company you sold it to found out, but in this case, since your posting the rfq, chances are good that your customer doesn't look here so i think your safe.

Jerry

[LeeWay]

I think he is right and it should be his decision to post the final price or not. If he did choose to disclose it, I would hope he would do so in the rejection letter and not publicly where he may one day regret the decision to openly disclose the final part price.

I don't think he stipulated either how the parts were to be made. He did say that other than threads, tolerances were not critical. That should have clued some in that molding might be a viable option.

Quotes are generally done on speculation. I'm certain it doesn't make you feel good, but you should learn not to put so much time into quoting on spec. Sealed bid quoting like this ultimately works similar to a lottery. Only one comes out feeling good. The others are left with lost time for doing quotes. That is the cost of doing business this way. It should be added to the overhead.