[diarmaid]

Hi all. I've put myself down provisionally to do night courses in welding starting next September for twenty weeks three hours a week. I have to let them know in a while which courses I actually want to do.

When I have my workshop set up next year Im intending to be welding round & square bar & some sheet metal to make gates and railings (Probably up to about 1" max), among other things Im gonna do as more of a hobby.

1) Im wondering which type will be best for this type of welding.

Many moons ago I did MMA and OxyAcetylene welding but cant remember how exactly, and professional training is always a good idea. Theres also testing to International standards at the end of the courses so I'll get a useable qualification.

2) I figure I'll do two courses at once (If the nights dont conflict). So would OxyAcetylene and one other be a good choice, since I get the impression that OxyAcetylene is always good to have regardless of what other types you use?

3) If so, what other one should I do? They have an MMA/TIG and a MIG course aswell.

They cost around €600 each so I want to do the right one.

Thanks in advance.

[diarmaid]

.

[Karl_T]

MIG is the best welding process for the projects you have in mind. Its a good starting course, also.

Karl

[Switcher]

Start with Mig.

[fkaCarel]

For small things and I consider 1" small, nothing beats TIG. Largest range of weldable materials, high process control. Can be used for "melting together" to controlled through welding. Finishing of the weld unnessesary, pity of the beautyness. Can be used to weld real tiny parts. Costs a little more.

Carel

[MisterB]

I own a tig machine, and the process is definitly the best looking and most controllable, but for gates and and railings mig is preferable from an economical standpoint because it costs less to weld with and takes less time per weld.
Tig is usually reserved for high stress parts like race car frames and plumbing parts for those two reasons.

[wolfmetalfab]

I own a Tig as well, if you can weld with oxy/acetylene it wont be too hard to pick up. I like to say that tig is sorta like oxy/acet welding cept you have a throttle peddle, but Mister B is correct for building gates and railings I would go for a mig welder as well, production speed would be hard to match other wise

As for classes, Oxy/Acet and mig would be the way to go imo
Oxy/Acet is VERY good to know and the Mig isnt hard to learn but setting the machine up is a art in its own

[wizard]

Considering your described interest I'd go with MIG as the first priority and TIG second. You mentioned certification yet you say you are in this as a hobby, thus I'm wondering if there is acommercial side to this education? Commercially your education and job interest have to agree somewhat.

As far as Oxy/Acetylene welding goes, it is good to know but I'm not to sure I'd get to worked up over it. I just don't see a lot of welding done with O/A, brasing yes along with soldering but nto welding. Everything just about that can be O/A welded can be done with TIG and probably a lot better with TIG. I know there are members here that disagree with this assesment, but I see this as an old process that isn't used much anymore.

The other thing is that if you have already done O/A welding then taking the other courses may refresh the mind a bit.

As to certification I'm wondeirng why you are concerned about that if this is a Hobby. Maybe the EU and Ireland have different concerns but I don't see how certification would help. Atleast on this side of the pond. Welding for hire would be different of course.

A further word of advice is to not over do the education if you are working full itme. Take just one course. I did all of my AAS degree via night school 5 nights a week, working 50 to 60 hours a week and frankly it wasn't worth it. You mis out on everything. This is especially the case if you don't have job requirements based on the course work. Better to take the courses consectively and have a couple of days each week.

Dave

[wolfmetalfab]

My though on learing o/a welding and mig is that with o/a you can do just about everything that you may run in to hobby wise and if you go GMAW (aka Mig) thats one machine to get and if planning to do small-medium production work going to run about $1000-1500 usd (rough guess)
GTAW (Tig) is great to know but IMO thats another chunk of $$ to sink in to another machine that wont be used often, o/a going to cost less then a decent Tig box, plus o/a can be used for cutting, basic pre-heating, welding and brasing/soldering as mentioned

[diarmaid]

Thanks for all the advice. I was worried that MIG was good for large panels such as on aircraft bodies, but that for lots of small welds on (for example a gate) it would take longer to keep setting up the feed rates than to just use MMA or TIG? Could someone clarify this please.

Re. hobby vs commercial, Im in full time employment right now so will be starting as a hobby in my spare time with a serious edge, because I want to go full time and get out of my current job as soon as I know I can make a steady income from my workshop (After 6mths or 1 year max). Hence Im buying equipment for light production as opposed to hobby, and production rates are an important consideration in the type of welding choice. My budget for the welder is €2000 with flexibility to go to €2500 if needed. Hopefully for this I'll get good capability with a decent duty cycle. It won't be used on a daily basis, but when it is I'll need it to be a workhorse and keep going until the order is turned out.

Re. the courses: The testing at the end is to either North American, British Standards, or another (Cant remember which, is there International or European standards?). You can get tested in two but your performance on the course will generally dictate which, the testing standards being higher for the American Standards than BS, and the third than the American I think.

Also, if & when I quit my job, if it all goes belly up, I can go to a building site as a qualified welder and a least cover the mortgage as I get sorted out!

re OA: Not sure I want to mess around with combustible gas without retraining. Other course might jog my memory for it but probably just enough for me to think I know more than I do with potentially bad results.

Thanks.

Edit: Im also going to get a plasma cutter so I wont need the OxyAcetylene for cutting, with this also in mind, will I need the OA for soldering/brazing enough to justify the outlay?

[Switcher]

I really think you should go with mig. (to make gates and railings) Mig is fast, and clean enough for what you said your planning to weld. Once you weld (Mig) for a while you'll learn how to control your feedrate.
You don't need Tig for what you are wanting to do.

Also, only do one course at a time.

From my exp. I would go with Mig (gas), don't use that flux-core crap. :cheers:

Just like anything else when you go out to buy a welder, you get what you pay for, buy the very best machine you can afford, you won't regret it. Good luck on whatever class you take :cheers:

[NC Cams]

I learned to weld MANY years ago when a Lincoln Idealarc 250 STICK welder was considered sophisticated (as in AC/DC/DCREV). Took a welding class at a a local trade school (sound familiar???).

Anyway, the instructor taught us how to weld flat, up, down, overhead, in-place, thick, thin, thich to thin, etc. Several of us REALLY took a shine to it and passed the grade early. The instructor then took us asside and allowed us to try our hands at TIG (both mig and tig were available).

Why TIG? His position was that TIG required a combination of skills more like gas welding/brazing with regard to heat control and puddle creation. MIG was sort of like a stick welder without the regular break when you had to load a new "stick".

ALthough my first TIG wasn't perfect, it was "darn near certifiable" according to the instructor.

Point is this: learning to weld (TIG/MIG/Stick/Oxy A) is the mastering of a bunch of similar tasks albeit with differing mediums.

If you're going to weld bridges, then stick welding is still the method of choice followed closely by MIG.

Thin and/or precise stuff (as in aircraft) is probably best done with TIG.

Production steel jobs as in general fabricating or ornamental work would probably be more suited to MIG - simply because it is a 'point and shoot' type of deal.

Have owned a stick and more recenlty a MIG but have used/done all three and knowing what I know now, I'd buy a TIG to start.

TIG would quite effectively enable expand upon any gas welding/brazing experience I have. Besides, pretty much ANYTHING you'd want to weld (aluminum, steel, bronze, etc) can be done with TIG.

TIG is perhaps NOT as expedient nor as productive as MIG. But once I learned how to TIG weld, I contend that MIG and/or even the rare opportunity to STICK weld could be picked up in a snap. It is also much more versatile and encompasses a broader spectrum of materials....

[wizard]

Thanks for all the advice. I was worried that MIG was good for large panels such as on aircraft bodies, but that for lots of small welds on (for example a gate) it would take longer to keep setting up the feed rates than to just use MMA or TIG? Could someone clarify this please.

Personally I believe MIG is fastest to set up and produce large aounts of weld with. Stick being a very close second. I do not see TIG as a answer to the types of production work you want to do. Take that with a grain of salt, as I've only Stick and MIGed welded. Generally a MIG will be set up and ready to go for mild steel, in an application like yours. If you had to switch wires on a regular basis then MIG looses some speed.

Re. hobby vs commercial, Im in full time employment right now so will be starting as a hobby in my spare time with a serious edge, because I want to go full time and get out of my current job as soon as I know I can make a steady income from my workshop (After 6mths or 1 year max). Hence Im buying equipment for light production as opposed to hobby, and production rates are an important consideration in the type of welding choice.

Now I understand better. If you expect the materials you are working with to have wall thicknesses up to 5/16", you may do very well starting out with a 175 amp 220 volt class machine such as a Lincoln SP175+. Such a machine would limit your fianacial exposure but help get the business off the ground. Startups are tough and you are likely to need a many other items and as such cash demand will be high.

I would say within 6 - 12 months of going full time into the business, you should seriously consider a multiprocess welder such as a Lincoln 350MP. This to supplement your 175 amp machine, not to replace it. Go multiprocess to get Stick capability along with High power MIG capability. On this particular machine the TIG capability is of only marginal interest.

You may need to do so even earlier as the stick capabilty might be more of a requirement than estimated at the moment. Or get cheap buzz box to hold you over.

My budget for the welder is €2000 with flexibility to go to €2500 if needed. Hopefully for this I'll get good capability with a decent duty cycle. It won't be used on a daily basis, but when it is I'll need it to be a workhorse and keep going until the order is turned out.

Not knowing what the exchange rate is at the moment I can help a whole lot. I'm geussing the multiplier would be around 1.75. So that is about $4400 dolars, in the US that would buy alot of welder, maybe even a 350MP. I would think seriously about putting that much money into a welder up front. I'm thinking you could get started nicely with about $800 for a 175amp MIG and around $400 for a buzz box. Go a little more professional with a 210 amp MIG for around $1300 and a slightly better buzz box (AC/DC)for $600. The dollar amounts are somewhat off the top of my head.

Re. the courses: The testing at the end is to either North American, British Standards, or another (Cant remember which, is there International or European standards?). You can get tested in two but your performance on the course will generally dictate which, the testing standards being higher for the American Standards than BS, and the third than the American I think.

Probably ISO standards.

Also, if & when I quit my job, if it all goes belly up, I can go to a building site as a qualified welder and a least cover the mortgage as I get sorted out!

Better to go into business with the attitude that you will succeed. Besides, atleast in this area you don't want to be making a welders salary. Think about going into business as business man and not a welder, welding just being part of the business.

re OA: Not sure I want to mess around with combustible gas without retraining. Other course might jog my memory for it but probably just enough for me to think I know more than I do with potentially bad results.

If you where trianed once I still have to think that some of that knowledge is still between the ears. You are right to be concerned about safety, to few are, but I'd see what the courses you take cover first. I just don't see you doing a lot of O/A welding, cutting yes, brazing and heat maybe, but not a lot of welding.

Thanks.

Edit: Im also going to get a plasma cutter so I wont need the OxyAcetylene for cutting, with this also in mind, will I need the OA for soldering/brazing enough to justify the outlay?

Well it all depends on wether you need to heat and bend anything. If the answer is yes then a O/A outfit may be needed or maybe a propane torch. Not a little plumbers propane torch either. In part it depends on where your business goes, if you focus on new production and fabrication then you may not have a pressing need for an O/A torch. If you get involved with work on existing structures it will be hard to get by without an O/A system. In the end you are likly to want to round out your tool supply with an O/A set or a propane fired torch. I'm not really thinking welding here either.

In any event do realize that most plasma systems will have you also buying a air compressor. Not a bad thing to have of course. With all of this stuff you will still need a band saw too. Plus a whole bunch of hand tools.

Thanks
Dave

[wolfmetalfab]

man you all like to beat on the o/a like its a dead art (chair)
part of the reason I suggested that route was to control cost, why put money in to something thats not going to get used too much (like a tig box mine was around $3000+/-)

Multi process machine isnt the route to go IMO unless your planning a really large shop, something around a miller 210 GMAW machine should cover about anything you might need to do starting off, plus if you grow to the point of needing to hire more people to work for you and buy more welders it will be still useable

Plasma cutters are great, but really take a good look at what you will be doing with it, if your planning CNC table plasma go for it, if your just planning to be cutting that barstock with it, get a good horizontal bandsaw (I wish I had done this)

As for anything, do alot of research and planning, look at the materials you want to weld, think about what you might find yourself looking to do with it

IMO most importan when looking at welding equipment check the duty cycles on them, see how long you can weld with it cause you are planning a production set up, 40% duty cycle on a welder for example means 4 mins welding 6 mins letting the machine cool down (most duty cycles are based off 10min base) try to choose a machine that will run close to 80-90% duty cycle @ rated settings for what you will be welding most in the shop, IMO the worst thing you can do in this is buy a machine that you will out grow fast, that seems like to me throwing money away

Also one other thing to keep in mind is parts for the machines you chose, make sure before hand that parts and consumables are avalible localy, if you have a machine down and cant get replacements fast, thats lost money right there


Just a few quick thoughts off the top of my head

Wolf~
btw my shop I run a Miller Dynasty 200dx GTAW box and Hypertherm 1000 plasma and I'm now stuck needing a mig for what I'm doing, I dont have my CNC plasma table built yet so up to now I feel that the plasma is a great toy BUT about the useless peice of equipment I own at the moment (least till its CNCed

[Geof]

You write: "because I want to go full time and get out of my current job as soon as I know I can make a steady income from my workshop (After 6mths or 1 year max)."

Seriously; don't be so optimistic, make it 2 years to 3 years and also recognise you will never 'know' you will be able to make a steady income. When you have taken the plunge you just keep plugging along and eventually discover you have a success on your hands, or not. I speak from experience; this year I celebrate the 25th anniversary of establishing my business. Among otjer products we make lightweight steel tube fabrications and I say get a MIG, around 180 - 200 amp with a good duty cycle, it will do everything you need and it is easy to learn. TIG can do nice welds but it has a steeper learning curve and is something you can get into when you find you have a product that needs it.

Someone else suggested a horizontal bandsaw, this a chopsaw and a good Sawzall are all you need for cutting the metal. Get an oxyacetylene kit because it is handy for burning off bits of metal that are difficult to get in the saw and also heating for bending. Initially don't worry about a plasma unit, when you have identified something that can use it then get it.

Regarding the course work take as much as you can handle; two at 3 hours a week each is trivial even if you are working full time. If you cannot handle this you will never handle getting your own business up and running.

[diarmaid]

Wow, thanks a million all. There's a phenomenal wealth of experience here. Some serious food for thought. And thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies. :cheers:

wizard:
I'll put more consideration and analysis into my welding budget and requirements, maybe I was thinking a bit of overkill. Obviously if I can go cheaper then I will, but I do want to keep some excess capability.

Im looking a wide product portfolio outside those already mentioned so not putting all my eggs in one basket. Welding will be but one of many fabrication tools, and I definately intend to succeed. I have family responsibilities that I would never neglect on some crazy fad of running a business :nono: . I get a buzz out of working hard and long when its for myself and I get satisfaction for myself instead of thanks (Or no thanks!) from someone else.......maybe Im weird...

The whole bunch of hand tools (And a load of workshop tools - Drill Press, Cabinet Saw, Chop Saw, Thicknesser/Planer....etc etc) is already selected, priced, sourced and budgeted for. Plus Im gonna get a discount

wolfmetalfab:
My initial funding isn't coming through until next February ('SSIA' -look at http://www.myadviser.ie/index_template.htm#1 & scroll down to 'SSIA's are Good For You because' to see. Or view the many other similar sites!) and the research/planning started a few months ago. Some people would say too early....but Im not one of those people.

The plasma cutter will be cnc. It was in Stage one of my plan and the table in Stage two, but I'm gonna move it to stage two now. No point having it just sitting there waiting for the cnc table. Thanks.

Geof:
6-12 months I know is probably optimistic, but I figure they're my first two big review points to see how its going. The 'clock' will start from my first advertisement. I suppose I might have to extend them later.

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:Co ngrats on the 25 years :banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

I was getting a bandsaw and chop saw, but Im gonna scratch off the bandsaw for now. Sawzall is included in hand tools budget. Thanks.

If I identify more relevant courses in my area Im sure I'll do them, but Im in the middle of a 4 year honours bachelors degree at the moment aswell...so kinda busy!

I'll let you all know what courses I end up doing. Thanks again.

[wizard]

I don't see O/A that way at all. Rather I see it as an art that has its place but has been supplanted by other technologies for main stream usage. Any good metal fabricator will have use for a torch of some type, I just don't see such torches being used for welding very much.

I could very well be biased but base my comments on what I see in industry. I'm also not referring to brazing or silver soldering when talking about gas welding. I've seen both of these processes used much more often than gas welding.

Dave

man you all like to beat on the o/a like its a dead art (chair)
part of the reason I suggested that route was to control cost, why put money in to something thats not going to get used too much (like a tig box mine was around $3000+/-)

[Geof]

..... some crazy fad of running a business...

Thank you for the dancing bananas but I should box your ears for calling running a business a crazy fad! Crazy maybe, but for me never a fad.

What are you doing your degree in? If it is not tooooo cheeky to ask.

[wizard]

Wow, thanks a million all. There's a phenomenal wealth of experience here. Some serious food for thought. And thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies. :cheers:

wizard:
I'll put more consideration and analysis into my welding budget and requirements, maybe I was thinking a bit of overkill. Obviously if I can go cheaper then I will, but I do want to keep some excess capability.

I don't know if it is overkill or not, as each time you post a different picture gets built up in my mind of what you want to do. Be carefull about the shotgun approach to business. Sure you want to make your customers happy but trying to cover to wide a swath at start up can be an issue.

I take it that you are in the EU some place. At this moment in time I'm thinking that you need more than a 175 amp MIG welder. You certainly have the budget for more. Since I have no idea what the pricing is on American made welders in the EU I can't help with a specific model. It may pay to list out the types of materials you expect to be working with in the near future with the dimensions. This combines with your expected usage rate should help you zero in on your first welder.

I do know that the monies you talked about, translated into US dollars would buy one heck of a nice welder. Or two welders, which might not be a bad idea, a MIG and a AC/DC stick machine. That should keep you viable for years.

Im looking a wide product portfolio outside those already mentioned so not putting all my eggs in one basket. Welding will be but one of many fabrication tools, and I definately intend to succeed. I have family responsibilities that I would never neglect on some crazy fad of running a business :nono: . I get a buzz out of working hard and long when its for myself and I get satisfaction for myself instead of thanks from someone else.......maybe Im weird...

That is nice, but to many veggies in the pot make for a funny tasting soup.

As to working for somebody else that is the situation that I'm in now. Here I've never recieved a thank you to amount to anything. The department manager is never seen and the work load continues to pile up. The only satisfaction I get is often a comment form the machine operator or the personal high of fixing something that no body else did.

The whole bunch of hand tools (And a load of workshop tools - Drill Press, Cabinet Saw, Chop Saw, Thicknesser/Planer....etc etc) is already selected, priced, sourced and budgeted for. Plus Im gonna get a discount

Sounds like a good portion of this enterprise involves wood.

wolfmetalfab:
My initial funding isn't coming through until next February ('SSIA' -look at http://www.myadviser.ie/index_template.htm#1 & scroll down to 'SSIA's are Good For You because' to see. Or view the many other similar sites!) and the research/planning started a few months ago. Some people would say too early....but Im not one of those people.

The plasma cutter will be cnc. It was in Stage one of my plan and the table in Stage two, but I'm gonna move it to stage two now. No point having it just sitting there waiting for the cnc table. Thanks.

Geof:
6-12 months I know is probably optimistic, but I figure they're my first two big review points to see how its going. The 'clock' will start from my first advertisement. I suppose I might have to extend them later.

Just to interject here, don't rely on simple advertisement. Getting a business going involves networking, advertising and marketing, yes a bunch of dirty multi letter words. Timing can be important to.

I was getting a bandsaw and chop saw, but Im gonna scratch off the bandsaw for now. Sawzall is included in hand tools budget. Thanks.

Carefull about the bandsaw. They are a very usefull tool. The quality of the cut makes for nice looking assemblies if the joints and welds are visible. I'am confused as to how much of this venture is going to be metal related. So you have to make your own decisions.

If I identify more relevant courses in my area Im sure I'll do them, but Im in the middle of a 4 year honours bachelors degree at the moment aswell...so kinda busy!

I'll let you all know what courses I end up doing. Thanks again.

A break from time to time is good to.

[diarmaid]

I don't know if it is overkill or not, as each time you post a different picture gets built up in my mind of what you want to do. Be carefull about the shotgun approach to business. Sure you want to make your customers happy but trying to cover to wide a swath at start up can be an issue.....That is nice, but to many veggies in the pot make for a funny tasting soup.

Im sorry, I should have elaborated a bit originally to help you all advise me but I didn't want to load the post with irrelevant information. What I originally intended was very basic and summerised in the four lines below. Below is a full synopsis of what Im intending to do now.

-----------------------------------------------------
I will be fabricating gates and fences out of wood.
I will be fabricating gates, fences and railings out of metal.
I will be fabricating gates, fencing, and railings out of a combination of both wood and metal.
There will be a strong artistic edge to most of my designs.
-----------------------------------------------------

WOOD:
A lot of the wood designs will incorporate artistic wood burning which I was going to do manually but have decide to do using laser. I will also use laser to engrave glass panels for some of the designs.
They will also involve wood carving for which I am going to build a cnc router.
The carving and laser will initially mainly be on panels built in to the designs as I do not have experience with cnc or funds for large machines yet, and I want to build a small machine first. Short term (<1yr) I think I will use these plans for a 3' x 2' router http://www.solsylva.com/ but am constantly looking at different ones on this site. I hope in the medium term when I have more experience (<5yr) I will build a new large router to enable me to custom carve entire gates.

METAL:
For the construction of Iron gates, fencing and railings I will require welding and other metalworking capability. I will require a cnc plasma cutter for cutting artistic designs to incorporate in these (Im sure you have seen many. eg: The shape of horses on gates into a stud farm.) I am hoping that the building of above small cnc router table will give me some form of a knowledge basis for building a 4'x8' or 4'x4' plasma table as soon as possible, but probably stretching into the medium term (I estimate starting in year 2). I have never seen iron gates, fences or railings constructed with larger than 1.25" diameter or thickness bar. If there is they must be either very specialist and/or very big and I dont intend to offer them as a product initially. This is what I used to decide my maximum welding capacity. (Not very scientific I know! )

METAL & WOOD:
I have various designs on paper, CAD drawn, & in my head, which involve various aspects of both of the above to result in individual, economical, and attractive types of design which I haven't seen offered in this country thus far and I believe there would be a market for.

-------------------------------------------------------

OTHER:
I will have a wide variety of equipment and obviously I want to maximise its use. It is because of this that I have expanded my product portfolio to take advantage of the capabilities, and the knowledge that my cnc machines can work away while I am working on something else in the shop.

For example: My laser engraver can engrave crystal and wood burn. Also my cnc router can carve. And I will be able to do metalwork. I thought 'I can take advantage of this by making plaques'. I would like to be able to do blind welds in stainless steel or aluminium for these, is MIG ok for this?

I thought 'I can turn custom pens using the wood lathe'. I may offer these complimentary for free with my larger gate etc type orders as I can allocate a day or two every month to turn out a supply for the following month. From my research they seem to take about 20min per pen.

I may also take advantage of the lathe to turn other items such as bowls.

I can produce other craft type items such as clocks using crystal/glass/wood/metal.

There will undoubtedly be types of signs, from house numbers to company logos and information incorporated within some of the gate/fence/railing designs, and I thought I could utilise this capability to offer signmaking.

I also intend to offer a selection of decorative house number/nameplate designs carved on the router and cut on the plasma cutter as another use for these capabilities.

In the medium term (<5yr) I will analyse the capability to offer some garden furniture and supplies.

Most of the above smaller items I will only have a few designs for so as not to overload myself and I will make them on an individual order basis, or a few at a time to cover any orders that might come in that month. Then I can simply sell/ship them as requested and as an extra avenue of income. Some like plaques will have a few examples and I will make them on an individual basis as and when requires. I am taking advantage of the capability to produce the smaller items to allow me to sell products over the internet.
I think I will use OSCommerce http://www.oscommerce.com/ for my website initially.

One of my biggest worries which Im sure consumes every startup is the thought of simply not receiving enough orders, I also don't know what road I will end up being taken down by demand for the different products. If there are too many orders coming in....touch wood! ....I can cut back, change focus, or expand. This bridge will be crossed and any decision made at the time.

Sounds like a good portion of this enterprise involves wood.

Yes

Carefull about the bandsaw. They are a very usefull tool. The quality of the cut makes for nice looking assemblies if the joints and welds are visible. I'am confused as to how much of this venture is going to be metal related. So you have to make your own decisions.

No, I apologise, Im confusing myself now! I am purchasing a bandsaw but not a horizontal metal cutting bandsaw, just a cutoff saw. I am purchasing a vertical Scheppach vario Bandsaw to use for wood, and also metal when needed.

A break from time to time is good to.

Tell me what thats like I can't remember!......... only kidding, I do relax.....the wife says too much!