[dagem]

i trying to purchase okuma cnc vmc machine model okuma genos m560 but in order to purchase the cutters i could not find any tecnical data for the cutters(solid carbide end mill )that include the amount of material that can be removed in kilograms or volume before any new end mill life time ends when it run under recommended condition even an average value,i could not find any were in he web that can describe this issue .because of this i would not be able to decide how much carbide end mills i need for specific amount of work.i using st40 any one experience in high speed okuma machining your help is highly appreciated .

[Algirdas]

it doesn't looks like the question to Okuma specialists. The cutter life time highly depends on cutting conditions. cutting speed & material hardness = work point heat. in case of copper and plastic cutting heat removing and dissipation factor is important.

[deadlykitten]

hy dagem theory and catalogues will give you a number, while real trials will have the final word

image 1 : data that shows machining capabilities, in laboratory conditions
image 2 : spindle diagram

search for a table called "milling unit chart" or "milling hp unit chart" ( unfortunately,right now, i dont know exactly how it is called ) that will give you required hp to mill a mm^3 or an inch^3 of whatever material, in 1 minute

theoretical, with all this data, you should be able to estimate spindle load when machining with a random tool

... almost forgot it : direct drive randament : 95 %
... however, that chart, for which i dont know the name, contains data for dulled tools, so there is room for more pushing

also, shared images are not from an updated catalogue, since last offer for Genos includes a 15k spindle

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when math will be done, real trials result may be pretty different

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maybe somebody will share his cutting specs, just for you, to have an opininon, but there are guys that go hard, and there are guys that never go over x% of spindle load

thus, it is irelevant

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try finding a real mill, somewhere if you wanna buy one, dealer may help you with a trial ... clamp hard a heavy part directly on mills table, thus to have no doubts about fixture vibrations, and start machining with a [o16 2D rough end] mill clamped in a [ short high power hydra holder ]

... maybe you will fall on your back

[deadlykitten]

i suggest :
... o16 rime rough endmill + seco
... seco e341458352085 : short powerful hydra holder, bt40shank, o20intern diameter + reduction sleeve

buy at least 3..4 such tools and the holder+sleeve

clamp the part, being sure that all active length of the tool can cut

do not change milling direction inside the material

play with the specs, listen to the machine, and keep your eyes on the diff value

... kindly !

[dagem]

it doesn't looks like the question to Okuma specialists. The cutter life time highly depends on cutting conditions. cutting speed & material hardness = work point heat. in case of copper and plastic cutting heat removing and dissipation factor is important.

Algirdas thank you for your help ,still when using okuma and haas under the same condition the life time of the cutter is different for both machine depending of their rigidity, the spindle size and other factors .i totally get that .what i could not find is the amount of material in kilogram or volume that can be removed under well known condition ,or if you use it the most efficient way.

[deadlykitten]

what i could not find is the amount of material in kilogram or volume that can be removed under well known condition ,or if you use it the most efficient way

wait till i get home, and i will share you that "hp unit chart"

generally, you select a base [rpm] and [feed]

when mill has more/less power, you simply change ae and ap, without modifing [rpm] or [feed]

... and thats it

[dagem]

many thanks deadlykitten you are right may be experiment this is the only way to find out how much material can be machined by carbide end mill ,what i wonder why i could not find one imperial example for it on the web,that even why i join this group for learning from experts .thank you.

[deadlykitten]

what i wonder why i could not find one imperial example for it on the web,that even why i join this group for learning from experts .thank you.

there are examples ... but i dont know now the key words, so to google them ... i will share a solution in a few hours, because i have it home, in bed

[dagem]

thanks i will wait then ,i really appreciate for sharing

[Algirdas]

using okuma and haas under the same condition the life time of the cutter is different
what scale of difference you see? There are many factors involved, including angle of attack, vibratons and heat dissipation. In case of some materials (Titanium aloys, AISI321 ...) these factors could prevail.

[deadlykitten]

hello that thing is called horsepower_unit_factor, and provides required hp to remove 1cubic_inch/minute of a certain material, for dulled tools

in attached excel file :
... page 1 : chart of Nm, Kw and Hp for the 12k Genos spindle
... page 2 : some horsepower_unit_factor tables; also others attached
...... for your reference, consider 1hp for 1cubic_inch_of_stell / minute
... page 3 : some calculations for the machining data shared some posts ago

i guess you will figure it out

... for a fiven n=rpm and f=feed_per_revo, you compute F=feed_per_minute=n*f
... if you know ap=depth_of_cut and ae=width_of_cut, you may compute the machined_volume_per_minute=F*ap*ae
... from the horsepower_unit_factor_table you may extract the theoretical_required_hp to machine 1cubic_inch/minute
... required_hp will be machined_volume_per_minute/theoretical_required_hp/spindle_efficiency
... from the chart from the excel page 1, check if spindle can deliver required_hp @ desired n=rpm

those are just numbers, but at least you may have an idea

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so, you wish to buy a genos ? and please, can you describe the differences you have noticed between haas & okuma ?

[dagem]

great help deadly kitten many thanks ,i will try to much the theory and the practice ,i try to compare the two machine for the last two month. between haas vf4 and okuma genone m560 v ,haas offer me better price for its machine but they are not accepting conformed LC payment from my bank which kind of difficult for me because of our country policy ,okuma agent come with more expensive price which i think worth it b/c the machine comes with more spindle speed and bridge frame rigidity for tool life and good surface finish when working hard metal . the best thing is they accept conformed LC which makes it easy for me to purchase. i am still not decide because i am reviewing their rotary table Tsudakoma RWE-200R,D which i am not sure about this table works like haas cnc rotarys HRT210.

[dagem]

the truth is i am not expert in cnc machine my experience is on conventional milling machine ,this cnc machine is going to be the first one for me,from my experience i know how many tools i need in my conventional universal milling machines for specific amount of works under right machining operation. but for cnc one with high speed machining for example with 16 mm solid carbide end mill ,i do not know how many of this end mills i need to remove 500kg of st 40 metal even a probable amount .that scares me.

[deadlykitten]

but they are not accepting conformed LC payment from my bank which kind of difficult

hy dagem take it easy, there is always a way ... i am not into contability, but i can tell you this : once our dealer suggest the possibility of buying not directly, but somehow, so we may reduce whatever taxes

i can not say more than that, i can not give you numbers, but this was the idea

rotary table

maybe you consider a classical divizor, thus not a motorized rotary table

so you use that divizor + oposing live center, just like on a normal mill, and when you will feel like a motorized table is really needed and costs are justified, than buy it

thus consider to buy the motorized table only when you are sure that it is required

costs with a rotary table are higher than a divizor, that maybe you allready have it in there

far as i know, in standard package, there is :
... chip conveyor
... through spindle coolant
... shower coolant
...... and this cool

wanna spare some money ? buy later :
... rotary table
... renishaw probe
... super nurbs

but be sure that you know each one what it does, and that those option can be installed after delivery because there are options that can not be installed after delivery, but only on cnc production line : for example the spindle well, in this case is only one type anyway

i do not know how many of this end mills i need to remove 500kg of st 40 metal even a probable amount

and who do you think it knows ? in other place, material may be in another condition, and this may require more tools ...

that scares me

be chill take one step at a time ... is very easy when you have someone near you, otherwise it may take long and be fustrating

... machine is cool actually is ok i guess you have production experience, and all you need is to link yourself to the mill

i can realy boost this phase for simple operations, but i am here

all i can say, is buy those holders because they are pretty good, and a better solution is designed for next machinining stage : better tolerances, etc, and obviously, it costs a lot more

i can help you decide for rough tools

look also for random sellers, if they are near your area for example :
... i buy new o16 mills for finishing, from official vendors
... i buy refreshed o16 mills with teeth for roughing, from random sellers, at a good price

kindly !

[dagem]

dear deadly kitten i could not pass with out thanking you for your valued help you are the best .many thanks

[deadlykitten]

thank you dagem

please be aware, if this is your 1st Okuma : training from dealer involves :
... using software installed inside the machine, so to generate programs : it is called IGF : it works, but it is primitive
... using machine CAS : a 3D virtual model, that will assure you that no collisions ( no interferences will ocur ) : it works, but it requires a lot of time to be setup

there had been numerous cases of buyers that felt disapointed after this instruction, because they realize how hard it is to setup the Okuma
... some of them felt so discouraged because of the long setup time, that they simply did not use the machine anymore ( this is real ... )

in reality all you need is a good programmer and tools to by-pass those things, and results will be promising

i am not saying that training from Okuma dealer sucks : it is a must, is good to know what the cnc can do, but is not enough to reach performance

please look at it this way : Okuma sells good machines, but is up to you how you drive them just like when buying a real car

these tools to by-pass must be simple, but effective ...

there are many guys that are satisfied only with the thing that the machine moves, but it is a difference between moving_a_cnc and working_on_it

i suggest take your time, understand the machine until you feel like there is nothing else to be understood, and in the moment when you will feel that you reached the max_level, please feel free to contact this forum again, and we will discuss programing techniques :
... IGF
... basic machinining procedures
... CAM
... parametrics

idea behind is simple : [ fast programing and big series ] , not [ slow programing and short series / uniques ]

kindly !

[dagem]

once again thank you ,okuma dealer told me, for one week here in my town they will give me training i think i have to do a lot of research before the machine arrive ,but now i am on seco the cutters ,which roughing and finishing solid carbide end mill are best for st 40 and stainless steel from the range of 10-18 mm ?there is a lot to chose in there web site.

[deadlykitten]

now i am on seco the cutters ,which roughing and finishing solid carbide end mill are best for st 40 and stainless steel from the range of 10-18 mm ?

you should take a walk in the park, thus go visiting some neighbour shops, and check prices maybe they will help you

in my case
... refreshed rough o16 end mill for less than 10euros
... new finish o16 end mill : 18 ... 200euros
...... i relly on Korloy and WNT

you must know the prices for your area

otherwise, a dealer may profitate from this wikness of yours thus will sell you expensive tools

i have conections with vendors and a database with prices this is the right thing to do

the range of 10-18 mm ?

i would recomand o14, maybe o16 max

roughing a lot with a o18 will shake your spindle

again, this depends on how much you wish to push the cnc kindly !

[dagem]

many thanks deadlykitten you help me a lot ,a few things i need to know about the cam software do i have to buy expensive ,ESPRIT, SolidMill Production,FreeForm 3-axis,cost me 12000 dollar i thought i can use inventor hsm which available in my laptop or future cam, am i missing something here?

[deadlykitten]

whatever CAM you buy it can not cost you 12k dolars at 12k you get a lot of stuff, and i dont think that this is your case ...

is this 1st cnc machine ? is there a programmer in the house ? tring reaching a guy from another shop, and ask him to give you some lessons

i can give you some software : take it, no questions asked send me your e-mail