[skipperspride]

I need some help with how to braze a smaller bronze wire to a bronze fish hook I need a fast and easy to do this to put out production can anyone help I am a beginer

[Geof]

Use silver solder, also know as Braze 450. If you Google Braze 450 you should find something either here on the zone or on the web.

Braze 450 is low temperature brazing, around half the melting point of regular bronze welding and a joint made with this is very close to the same strength as regular bronze welding. Using regular bronze welding is more or less impossible because your parts will probably melt; using soft solder is probably not strong enough.

One thing abotut using Braze 450 is that your joint clearances should be close; and gap larger than about 0.01" is getting a bit big and it is better to have it around 0.005".

A definite advantage with the 450 is that you can adapt it for production; it is available in both wire and thin shim. With the shim it is possible to do oven brazing; you make fixtures using something like stainless steel although good old fashioned cast iron C clamps can work. Coat the parts with flux at the joint area, clamp them in the fixture with a bit of foil between the parts, put them in a small oven and bring them up to temperature. The oven can be as simple as something like a hobby ceramic kiln; all it has to do is get to the required temperature which is below what is used for ceramic firing.

You can do it with a flame but on small stuff it can be tricky. You need a soft flame to avoid overheating and when you are dealing with wire and parts that have very different cross-sections it is more than tricky it is difficult. If you are using a flame do some searches for information on making silver jewellery because this uses the kind of techniques you need. But flame is not the way to go for production.

[One of Many]

I need some help with how to braze a smaller bronze wire to a bronze fish hook I need a fast and easy to do this to put out production can anyone help I am a beginer

Depends what your production quantities are.

You might look into percussion, spot or resistance welding methods, if they can be applied to bronze.

Short of that, the 2 pieces fixtured between 2 contacts, using low voltage high current could be time controlled to generate just enough heat to apply flux and silver brazing derivative. As already mentioned, the process must not compromise the materials to be joined but still obtain the acceptible strength expected. That gets tough when working with such small items.

DC

[Al_The_Man]

If the bronze wire is very small gauge, I would have thought that tin solder would suffice?
Especially if the soldered joint had more than the tensile strength of the bronze wire?
If so, high frequency induction heating could possibly be applied.
Al.

[Geof]

....If so, high frequency induction heating could possibly be applied.
Al.

This would work with silver solder, Braze 450??? Yes, no?? I cannot recall ever hearing about it but induction heating can get very hot; such as hot enough to melt bronze.

[One of Many]

This would work with silver solder, Braze 450??? Yes, no?? I cannot recall ever hearing about it but induction heating can get very hot; such as hot enough to melt bronze.

I would wonder if it would be possible to use a small solder pot of some silver braze and just fixture and dip the parts? Could be that they would need a tinning process before hand but that would minimize the heat to that of the bonding materials? If the slag on the top didn't interfere....

DC

[Al_The_Man]

This would work with silver solder, Braze 450??? Yes, no?? I cannot recall ever hearing about it but induction heating can get very hot; such as hot enough to melt bronze.

The beauty of induction heating is it is very fast and localized, in this type of application you would apply it just for the duration required to melt the solder material, which is much lower than the melting point of bronze.
Al.

[Geof]

I would wonder if it would be possible to use a small solder pot of some silver braze and just fixture and dip the parts? Could be that they would need a tinning process before hand but that would minimize the heat to that of the bonding materials? If the slag on the top didn't interfere....

DC

Fixturing and dipping into a molten pot would probably work if your shape was convenient; actaually I think take out the probably there is no reason for it to not work.

Tinning with the silver braze I wonder about; my experience with the braze 450 is that it seems to melt at a higher temperature when it is re-melted. This type of feature of some silver solders is used to sequentially assemble things; with care you do not re-melt previous joints when you do another one.

[One of Many]

Dipping them, more than likely would require some kind of masking so that only the joint was exposed. The tinning I had in mind was Liquid Tin.

I've read about the reflow temp elevating. The same may be true for solder wave. Doing component level board repairs, removing the solder with a sucker can be a problem. At least until a little fresh 60/40 solder is added to the joint.

The induction methods I have seen have all been on much larger assemblies. Nothing smaller than 10mm. I tried a search for micro, mini and small induction soldering. Nothing came up for fish hook size wire bonding. I did see laser soldering which may give greater localized control.

Not that either are economical until production matches the need for such high dollar equip.

Skipper may have left the building?

DC

[Geof]

.......Nothing came up for fish hook size wire bonding. I did see laser soldering which may give greater localized control.

Not that either are economical until production matches the need for such high dollar equip.

Skipper may have left the building?

DC

You would need a lot of anglers to justify laser soldering.

Skipper may have left the building, I have seen other threads where the thread-starter never returned, but the thread still generated a lot of useful information; in this case it has stimulated an idea. We make a product which has a 13/16" dia brass ball with a tapered hole pushed onto a matching taper on the end of a leaded steel stem with the end of the stem swaged over into a counterbore in the ball. The grip is by friction only and we have difficulty getting enough friction grip without expanding the ball beyond what can be tolerated. Perhaps tin the steel taper with Braze 450, sit the ball on and induction heat the assembly, the Braze 450 remelts, the ball expands more than the steel and when cooled the ball contracts firmly onto the steel so the brazed connection is as thin as possible. The steel should heat more rapidly than the brass by induction and the ball should return completely back to its original size. I need to find one of those induction machines for heating bearings and see if I can adapt a smaller heating coil. Maybe the tinning step is not needed; flux the two parts and assemble with a little sliver of the shim Braze 450; heat and gravity and capillary action should do the rest.

[Al_The_Man]

The steel should heat more rapidly than the brass by induction Maybe the tinning step is not needed; flux the two parts and assemble with a little sliver of the shim Braze 450; heat and gravity and capillary action should do the rest.

I think you are right about the Bronze, probabally heat much slower than the solder, it usually needs to be the other way around.
Many years ago, I set up a HF induction system to Silver Solder the filler pipe in auto gas tanks, the induction work coil was inside the filler pipe and the operator placed a small ring of 16gauge SS round the filler and fluxed it, I believe the completion time was around 30 secs.
The HF frequency was around 455khz which played havoc with the operators AM radio.
Al.

[Geof]

..... I believe the completion time was around 30 secs.....

That is the part I want hear.

I Googled Induction Brazing and found numerous hits. The ones I looked at pictured machines that I expect would be in the five figures which is a bit high for experimenting. I recall seeing bearing heaters in the region of $3000 plus or minus a bit, but I don't know if they have a high enough frequency for the brass. Although maybe that would not matter; the brass will heat a bit and if the steel melts the brazing alloy there will be good thermal contact between the steel and brass so it would heat the brass; there is not much material involved.

[One of Many]

You would need a lot of anglers to justify laser soldering.

Skipper may have left the building, I have seen other threads where the thread-starter never returned, but the thread still generated a lot of useful information; in this case it has stimulated an idea.

Now that I think about it. If the guys in the laser area here can build small CNC laser cutters, I'd think the laser soldering would be a snap. A used laser might be found on the cheap that could generate enough heat to melt silver solder super accurate for the wire size and non-contact.

30 seconds? Here is one 2 second cycle!


Induction Soldering Videos

Check out the glass feedthrough that may fit the fishhook production rather than 1 at a time go with a group. Or go with the ferrule to fiber optic cable process and solder the hooks to the bronze wire and snip them apart at the output side.

DC

[Geof]

I didn't look at any videos just the introductory pictures; obviously it is well worth looking into; I was too fixated on a mechanical connection previously.

[skipperspride]

I can not get the hook too hot as to lose its strenth where can I find more info on dipping process

[diecutter]

Check out the resistance welder machines sold in such catalogs as Rio Grande. They are used to weld findings to jewelry which is similair to what you want. The cycle is only a few seconds, and the heat migrates little if any.

The cost is a little pricey, $500 to $1000 if memory serves, but you may be able to build your own version cheaply with a little experimentation. One of those large low voltage, high amperage capacitors used in car audio coupled with a switch and micro-timer and custom made clamp/contacts may be able to be made to work with a little trial and error.

[ljinduction-suri]

I need some help with how to braze a smaller bronze wire to a bronze fish hook I need a fast and easy to do this to put out production can anyone help I am a beginer

you can use a induction heating machine, if you are in mass production.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I think the 'molten pot' idea is poor. The problem with holding metals at elevated temperatures for extended periods of time is that some components of the alloy will oxidise. The oxides, unless they float to the surface, will
interfere with the joint and over a period of time the composition of the alloy will change.

In New Zealand the common name is 'Sil-Phos' , or basically a silver loaded phosphorus bronze. It sounds very much the same type of material as Braze 450. The low melting point means that it is very useful on copper, brasses and bronzes.
The silver content allows for rapid and easy 'wet out' of the material, especially if the base material is copper or a copper alloy.

I can well imagine that induction heating would work, but a good man with a oxy-LGP or oxy-acet torch is fast and flexible. Whats the bet by the time you've invested in an induction machine, spent many hours devising the coil shape
required for your application and refined the brazing process the guy with the oxy torch has already finished the production run and is off to the pub with the paycheck!

Craig