[steven6282]

Ok, I know from searching that this is not an uncommon discussion, so sorry for that. But none of the 20 or 30 threads I have read this morning really answer my questions. And unfortunately there is a lot of differentiating information in them as well. I don't know if posting will help, but I figured it was worth a try.

I'm currently building a home DIY CNC machine. I've got all the hardware, frame of the machine and such pegged down. It will be made of mostly aluminum so I'm not looking to build some gargantuan steel cutting machine here. The hardest material I want to be able to cut is aluminum. I see a lot of DIY machines doing this with basic routers like the Bosch PR20EVSK and Dewalt 1611. But then I read in some places that these routers aren't really fit for the job and will tear up quickly. I'm also not sure how precise they are which is a concern for another one of the main purposes of my CNC. I want to be able to prototype my own PCB boards. I've designed the movement of the machine so that it should have the necessary precision, can be precise at up to about .005mm theoretically. That's with the steppers at 1/8 microstep, I'll probably run them at 1/2 steps though which will give me .02mm resolution, I think that is enough for pcb prototyping as long as I'm not trying to make extremely compact traces.

So anyway, with that said, I'm trying to figure out which spindle / router to go with. I'd spend the extra money to get a nice spindle over a router, but the problem with them is the extra steps to make it work. A lot of them seem to be water cooled which means I'd have to also set up a water pump, reservoir, and possibly a radiator. Also the majority of them seem to be 220V which is a problem. I don't want to spend loads of money wiring up 220v. I've seen Step Up converters that will convert 110v to 220v, but I don't know how reliable they are? But, I'm worried that going the cheaper router path will not give me the precision I need for pcb prototyping.

The only spindles I can seem to find that run on 110v and are air cooled are only .4kw spindles. I don't think that is enough for aluminum? I read in a couple places that a .8kw spindle is stronger than the Bosch router I mentioned, and the Bosch can do aluminum so I assume a .8kw spindle can as well. I just can't find one of those at 110v.

Any advice would be most welcome.

[ger21]

Get one of these and a 110V VFD to drive it.
ER11 1 5KW Air Cooled Spindle Motor Engraving Mill Grind Four Bearing CE | eBay

A Bosch Colt will not last long at all cutting aluminum. It's bearings are mounted in a plastic housing.



Do not count on microstepping accuracy greater than half step, as it won't necessarily be accurate.

You always want to run between 1/8-1/10 microstepping, because the motors will run much smoother.

Be aware that your machine size will likely change by more than .02mm with temperature changes.

[jcarpenter2]

I would be very leery of running a 110 to a vfd. I know you can buy them on ebay from China, but..... The vfd is converting the supplied input to 3 phase electric, if its input is 220 single phase then it is using two 110 legs in a delta configuration with a capacitor to create the 3 phase power. How a vfd converts a single 110 to 3 110 legs is beyond me and it surely doesnt seem feasible in my limited experience.

[jcarpenter2]

I am curious though. I have a 1.5kw water cooled spindle with an er11 collet. Is it possible to replace the shank in order to accept the er16 collet or will I need to replace the whole spindle if I want to upgrade?

[mactec54]

I am curious though. I have a 1.5kw water cooled spindle with an er11 collet. Is it possible to replace the shank in order to accept the er16 collet or will I need to replace the whole spindle if I want to upgrade?

The shank/shaft runs right through the motor, the Bearings run on this shaft, and can not be changed, if you need a ER16 then you will have to buy a spindle for that size

[steven6282]

Interesting, I had not taken into consideration temperature changes effecting the machine size but I understand it now that you mention it. Also, I think I must've had it backwards, I thought the closer you got to 1 full step the greater the inaccuracy. Which is why I figured I'd run at 1/2 step. If running a smaller microsteps is indeed more accurate, what is the advantage to full stepping, speed?

And thank you for the recommendation. That specific spindle on ebay is one of the ones I was looking at, but it says in the description "3) Voltage: 220V". So I thought that would require a 220V VFD instead of a 110V?

[jcarpenter2]

I was tossing around this same thing just a couple weeks ago. I ended up going with a 1.5kw water cooled using 220v. Yes ill have to run a 220 line but I based my decision off of a number of discussions I saw about "heat" on the tool and the wear and tear on some of the spindles. Its common knowledge that 220v requires half the current to run at the same speed. Less current also equals less heat and with a tool that may run for a few hours I thought that may be one way to cut down on the heat and also the wear and tear on the motor. Im definitely not an expert but it does make sense in my head

[steven6282]

I was tossing around this same thing just a couple weeks ago. I ended up going with a 1.5kw water cooled using 220v. Yes ill have to run a 220 line but I based my decision off of a number of discussions I saw about "heat" on the tool and the wear and tear on some of the spindles. Its common knowledge that 220v requires half the current to run at the same speed. Less current also equals less heat and with a tool that may run for a few hours I thought that may be one way to cut down on the heat and also the wear and tear on the motor. Im definitely not an expert but it does make sense in my head

I can agree with that logic, less current is less heat and water cooling would be superior most likely and make for longer life. However right now I don't really want to do water cooling because of the extra cost of a pump and such to actually get the water to it (I don't mind spending extra for the spindle to get something good, but I don't want to spend a ton extra lol), and I'm renting my house currently, so I can't run a new electrical outlet easily. Requires getting approval from the owner and would have to have it certified by a licensed electrician and all that meaning more $$ and just a pita to do really.

If I can run that 220v one from ebay on a 110v vfd, I'd do that. But I dunno if that will really work. It probably actually runs on a voltage range with 220 volts being it's max speed of 24000 rpm. If it were a linear speed increase from 0 to 220 volts, 110volts would run it at 12000. I don't know if it's linear or not though. Also, I don't really know yet what the different effects RPM has. I have gathered that for milling harder materials you want to run the spindle slower, but not sure what faster speeds are for and if it will make any difference running 12000 instead of 24000 RPM for what I'm doing with it.

[jcarpenter2]

I wish i had an engineering degree - then maybe this stuff wouldnt be so complicated to me. My experience in logistics really doesnt come into play with a cnc but running a farm sure helps since i always seem to be doing, electrical, welding, woodworking, etc

[ger21]

I may have been mistaken about that spindle and the 110V VFD.
You can get water cooled spindles that will work on 110V.
Water Cooled 1 5KW USA 110V CNC Spindle Motor and Matching Inverter VFD Router | eBay

If I can run that 220v one from ebay on a 110v vfd, I'd do that. But I dunno if that will really work. It probably actually runs on a voltage range with 220 volts being it's max speed of 24000 rpm. If it were a linear speed increase from 0 to 220 volts, 110volts would run it at 12000. I don't know if it's linear or not though. Also, I don't really know yet what the different effects RPM has. I have gathered that for milling harder materials you want to run the spindle slower, but not sure what faster speeds are for and if it will make any difference running 12000 instead of 24000 RPM for what I'm doing with it.

It doesn't work like that.

[steven6282]

Yeah thanks I found that one. Got excited about the price of it until I realized the seller was just shifting the price to shipping.

I might have to consider making a 220 volt drop cord to run from my dryer connection however. Can find 220 volt models with the VFD in the US for under 200 it seems, and can get air cooled versions for 250. It would be rather inconvenient having to run it out to where the router will be every time I use it, but to not have to deal with the hassle of water cooling it might be worth it. I'll have to think on it lol.

On the subject of the water cooling, how much water flow do they require? Will something like an 80gph fish tank pump be sufficient, or will it need more?

Interestingly enough I just found a 1.5kw air cooled that claims to be 110volt, and it's max speed is listed as 12000 RPM:
Konmison DIY 110V Air Cooled 1.5KW Spindle Motor CNC with 2pcs ER16 Collect - - Amazon.com

But I'm not going to try ordering that one since it seems to be an odd one out and has no reviews. Might be some really cheap knock off garbage.

[aarggh]

For hobby or small business use I'd go water cooled over air cooled anyday unless you have a very, very, good dust extraction system in place. You won't need a radiator unless your in a very hot zone with a high a high ambient temp most of the time. We get days ranging from 12C to 42C here in OZ quite a lot, and I have just a plastic sealed container with 6 litres of undiluted radiator coolant and a submersible pump, and have never had the spindle go above more than a little bit warm, even after 12 hours non-stop machining.

If your still really worried about heat issues, adding more coolant will cater for higher operating temps, again without the need for fans or radiators.

The trick is to simply keep the coolant away from dust, light and heat, and it will last years without any blooms or gungy stuff growing.

cheers, Ian

[steven6282]

For hobby or small business use I'd go water cooled over air cooled anyday unless you have a very, very, good dust extraction system in place. You won't need a radiator unless your in a very hot zone with a high a high ambient temp most of the time. We get days ranging from 12C to 42C here in OZ quite a lot, and I have just a plastic sealed container with 6 litres of undiluted radiator coolant and a submersible pump, and have never had the spindle go above more than a little bit warm, even after 12 hours non-stop machining.

If your still really worried about heat issues, adding more coolant will cater for higher operating temps, again without the need for fans or radiators.

The trick is to simply keep the coolant away from dust, light and heat, and it will last years without any blooms or gungy stuff growing.

cheers, Ian

Yeah, I'm sure water does a better job of cooling in just about every situation, it's just so darn inconvenient. You have to deal with 2 tubes moving with your head, meaning the need for a bigger drag chain or something else to keep them from tangling or snagging. Have to factor in the extra weight of the water in the tubes and in the spindle itself. Have to have something in place to make sure the water is flowing and that water levels are sufficient or else risk overheating the spindle if it isn't noticed.

IMO it seems like a much easier thing to make a descent dust boot.=/ If it weren't for the 220v requirement I'd probably have already ordered that model.

I'm not so much worried about heat issues as I am about just having a sufficiently working machine that doesn't require constant maintenance to keep working.

There is also the fact that the air cooled 220 volt model that I found and am trying to decide between is a 65mm diameter 4 bearing model. Making it easier to mount vs the 80mm 110volt water cooled model, less weight, and with 4 bearings instead of 3 I imagine longer life / more stability (I could be wrong about this last since I don't know the details of these things).

[jcarpenter2]

This is for steven6282 as it seems there is a bit of confusion, if there isnt, just ignore this message.
Houses in the US are wired with 220 single phase.
Outlets in your house are 110 single phase.
Large appliances in your home (i.e. - dryer) use 220 single phase.
110 is a single leg (generally black) of 110 voltage, along with a neutral (white) and a ground (green).
220 is two legs (generally black and red) of 110 voltage along with a neutral (white) and a ground (green) (total of 4 wires)(look at your dryer plug - it should be four pronged)
old school 220 used two legs of 110 and a ground (some old dryer outlets have three prongs).
220 three phase (three legs of 110 voltage - red, black, blue, but the colors may very) is normally ran for large commercial types of equipment to meet specific applications.
A VFD creates three phase electricity for smaller applications that require variable frequencies (like a spindle).
A VFD that has an input of 110 single phase can be used for a spindle that is under 1hp, anything over that and it is doubtful you will get the full max capabilities of the spindles.
A VFD that has an input of 220 single phase is a much better option as it will produce more amperage in order to drive a larger spindle.
The VFDs i have seen only require three wire inputs, two 110 legs and one ground (the neutral is not used). The VFD will generate three legs of 110 voltage and of course dont forget the ground (total of 4 wires). Also, most VFDs will accept three phase, but that does not affect most users as we generally work with single phase.

Hopefully this is a bit helpful.

[steven6282]

Ok, I'm just getting more confused on VFDs and their voltages lol. There is so much differing information out there. I just had a spindle seller tell me I could run a 220v spindle on a 110v VFD with no problems.... I did some more research and found some other forums that suggest the same thing. Some even say that 110v VFDs are really outputting 220v 3 phase power anyway, they are just serving as a step up converter. In another place I read that there are a very few true 110v spindles. Seems to me all this makes for a huge mess lol. If there really are very few 110v spindles and some 110v VFDs output 220v, it's a recipe for disaster! Plug a 110v spindle into a 220v output VFD and the magic smoke would probably come out in short order haha.

It seems to be difficult to find some clear, reliable, concurrent information on this stuff. I don't have hundreds of dollars to throw around trying out various stuff for myself unfortunately. My newest concern is the collet size. The majority of the 1.5kw spindles come with ER11 collets. I have seen a few that come with ER16. I don't know if I will really need ER16 or not, but I need to figure it out before I invest nearly 400 dollars on a spindle setup. I've seen some places say that you can replace the collet holder on the spindle to upgrade it to an ER16, but others say the holders are not replaceable on the spindles. I don't know which of these are true. It would be nice to have the option though... The 65mm diameter 1.5kw I pointed out earlier is ER11, there is a nearly identical model that is 80mm diameter with an ER16 from the same seller.

[mactec54]

Ok, I'm just getting more confused on VFDs and their voltages lol. There is so much differing information out there. I just had a spindle seller tell me I could run a 220v spindle on a 110v VFD with no problems.... I did some more research and found some other forums that suggest the same thing. Some even say that 110v VFDs are really outputting 220v 3 phase power anyway, they are just serving as a step up converter. In another place I read that there are a very few true 110v spindles. Seems to me all this makes for a huge mess lol. If there really are very few 110v spindles and some 110v VFDs output 220v, it's a recipe for disaster! Plug a 110v spindle into a 220v output VFD and the magic smoke would probably come out in short order haha.

It seems to be difficult to find some clear, reliable, concurrent information on this stuff. I don't have hundreds of dollars to throw around trying out various stuff for myself unfortunately. My newest concern is the collet size. The majority of the 1.5kw spindles come with ER11 collets. I have seen a few that come with ER16. I don't know if I will really need ER16 or not, but I need to figure it out before I invest nearly 400 dollars on a spindle setup. I've seen some places say that you can replace the collet holder on the spindle to upgrade it to an ER16, but others say the holders are not replaceable on the spindles. I don't know which of these are true. It would be nice to have the option though... The 65mm diameter 1.5kw I pointed out earlier is ER11, there is a nearly identical model that is 80mm diameter with an ER16 from the same seller.

Yes don't mess with the 110v rated spindles, this is a not a normal built spindle

Nothing confusing about it, a VFD built to run on 120v input has a dubbler built into, ( step up transformer ) the VFD, the power in the VFD then turns into 220v and has a 220v output for the spindle, you will draw twice the Amps on your 120v circuit, so make sure your 120v circuit is up to the task

No you can not upgrade the collet size if it is ER11 then that is what you have, If you have a ER16 you could have the same range of collets sizes that the ER11 uses, and larger sizes up to it's max

[cyclestart]

There's a company named PreciseBits that claims to make precision collets for non-precision routers. Their website sure gives the
impression they're honest and realistic regarding expectations and results.

I'm in the same 110v boat with a breaker panel running at capacity. It would be nice to ditch the current hardware store router.
Please post back when you find a solution

[steven6282]

Nevermind about this, found my answer I'm pretty sure. Found one website that specifies the diameter of ER11 as like .7" and ER16 at around 1.3". So an ER16 nut shouldn't fit on an ER11 spindle. Although, I don't know why a little adapter could not be made (I know it could potentially cause more runout but the main appeal to a bigger collet is for rough passes where runout isn't as big of an impact).



Question about the ER11 vs ER16. I saw this today while looking at stuff:

ER16A Collet 0 8KW 1 5KW 2 2KW 3KW 4KW Water Cooled Air Cooled CNC Spindle Motor | eBay

Does anyone know if that would fit on a spindle that comes with an ER11? I can't seem to find anywhere with specific specifications on these spindles and their collets. But ER11 and ER16 seem really similar, they both support the same smallest size, ER16 just supports up to 3mm larger.

The only advantage I really see to having an ER11 is if it is smaller diameter than ER16, it would be easier to make deep cuts.

[victorofga]

its mightbe sounds confusing, but if you were look for the vfd-s wiring, then you going to find there are 3 terminal to hook on the power

either way 220 single phase, or 110 single or 2x110 power will work same inverter..


reason is very simple, imagine the manufacturer, if they were producing 3 different type inverter..
this way they selling one type for everyone..

it just wouldn't make sense for the manufacturer producing 3-4-5 different inverter for same purposes..

what you see on picture its a huangyang vfd, but if you looking for more, then you find same layout of terminals..

it is somehow standard like gasoline for cars... can you imagine manufacturer would make cars for 25 different type of gasoline?

================================================== =======

the 4 bearings type better, that's true, however you also can use the simplest for milling metal...
when you get there, your biz is running, then you have time to buy for more, a better spindle..

[jcarpenter2]

I would dare say not they wont fit. Here is a pic that shows more detailed information.