[ynneb]

...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attorcities our goverments commit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

[phomann]

...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attrcities our goverments commit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

I could not agree more. A case in point,

Capture someone, keep them in a secret CIA prison for 3 years and guess what, they confess they masterminded every major terrorist act in the last decade.

Oh, did I mention he confessed without cohersion. What idiot would behieve that!

He probably also confessed to be the mastermind behind the JFK assassination.


Whether he is the mastermind or not, the confession has not and cannot have any credibility. We cannot treat people like this.



Peter.

[ynneb]

Whether he is the mastermind or not, the confession has not and cannot have any credibility. We cannot treat people like this.

Nor can we lock them up indefinitely for years without a trial, just because we suspect they may be guilty.
I have written to our "dessicated coconut" on many occasions only to receive standard pre judging comments that "these people are terrorists". How do we know, if we don't send them to trial ?

George Bush and John Howard, have bought untold shame on both of our countries.

[Rekd]

Are we talking about global warming here, or are we just bush bashing?

It's sad how America is seen as the problem here. Radical Islam has been doing this crap for centuries, and only now have the resources to do it on a very large and very noticeable scale, yet somehow it's all bush's fault for wanting to protect Western Civilization from a clear and un-denied (by the Radical Islamics) attempt to destroy anything and everything that is not Islam.

I don't think sawing off heads on TV, dragging dead, mutilated bodies through the streets, training children to hate and kill and commit suicide, or killing women and children in the name of God are the kinds of values we should allow to continue.

BTW, you've been watching too much 24. "Torture" in the eyes of the US is water-boarding, loud music and being forced to shave your beard. Damn ruthless Americans!

"I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan," he said. "For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head."

All this thread is going to do is start fights, so I would suggest it stops now before it gets out of hand.

[Madclicker]

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

[Rekd]

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

This guy will never be released, they said that last night. He will be a viable threat to (civilized) humanity until he dies, and likely afterwards. He openly and happily admitted what he did. Experts say he's trying to martyr himself, make himself comparable with OBL, and say he's probably responsible for 80% of what he claims.

He was bragging about what he did when he was first captured years ago. He's only trying to play our system, like they always do by saying he was tortured, and they always succeed because we're too PC and too nice and too damn worried what the rest of the world will think of us.

It's pathetic. The US is at war, we need to start acting like it or we will end up with another Viet Nam, and we will end up losing. We can't afford to lose this war. We can't afford to let a nut job like the leader of Iran take control of Iraq, which is exactly what he's trying to do. He openly admits he wants to destroy Israel, the US and all of Western Civilization (and he needs Iraq to do it), yet people continually blame bush. Pathetic.



Even OBL openly claimed the terrorists need Iraq to succeed. Doesn't anybody pay attention to what the enemy says?

[Geof]

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

That may be true but the Geneva Convention applies to POWs. As far as I understand it is not being applied to the current group of detainees.

[Rekd]

As far as I understand it is not being applied to the current group of detainees.

How so?

And don't forget this clause...

POW status also applies to captured members of irregular forces who are under responsible command; have a fixed distinctive sign (such as an insignia, uniform or other marking) recognizable at a distance; carry arms openly; and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

I don't think wearing a burka or murder apply.

[Geof]

I do not understand the 'How so?' question. The post I responded to was equating the (alleged) terrorist detainees to POWs. It is my understanding they do not have this status and therefore the strictures of the Geneva Convention do not apply.

I fail to understand the logic that would allow me to say because someone else behaves in a barbaric manner it is okay for me to behave in a barbaric manner; which is the logic that seems to be applied in the case of these detainees. I can think of three reasons for treating people, no matter what their alleged or real status, in a decent and humane manner; one is because it is the correct thing to do, another is because it degrades the one doling out the treatment and it is pointless. During the Korean and Vietnamese wars by all accounts captured US personnel were subjected to treatment that ranged from the equivalent of water boarding and sleep deprivation to much worse. Did anyone believe the confessions of the ones subjected to this did anyone think better of the perpetrators of the wrong treatment. The US and other countries are involved in a war on terror but this does not excuse emulating the behaviour of the other side even to the smallest degree. This, unfortunately, is the conundrum a humane society faces when confronted by terrorist acts; if you lower yourself to the level of your opponents you have lost the cause. I agree that probably many of the detainees cannot sensibly be released because they do pose a threat. Some of them probably pose more of a threat now as result of their treatment. Why is it not possible to simply confine them in a humane and diginified manner? It is questionable whether much information of value has been obtained by the treatment some have been subjected to. It is certain that the image of the US has suffered and some people who may have dithered have been pushed in the direction of extremism.

[Rekd]

I'm trying to figure out how/why you think the US is treating the terrorists barbarically. If you for one second believe the US is treating the terrorists the same way the terrorists are treating everyone else (who is not Islamic), then you're misguided. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but those are treated with harsh punishment when they're found out.

Do me a favor, give me ONE example of how the US is acting barbaric like the terrorists are. Just one. (And not an example of a single soldier murdering someone, then getting 100 years in prison for it, which is how we are dealing with those individuals.)

Show me where the US has dragged a body through the streets, cut off a head, hidden behind women and children, hidden in schools, dressed as women to gain an advantage in an attack, attacked women and children on purpose repeatedly, etc etc etc.

Do you honestly believe the US is as barbaric as these terrorists? Do you honestly think we're "stooping to their level" ?? Then show me, because aside from the baseless rhetoric I've heard from the bush-bashers, we're not.

Also, that guy bragged about what he had done before being water-boarded.

[vacpress]

dude.. dont you know anything about our government?

we live under a consitantly mean natured set of 'rulers'... cases in point:

-Iran Contra
-the entire 2nd iraq war
-Vietnam
-Watergate type crud
-the first Bush election
-how long it took us to get into WW2
-HOLDING ANYONE WITHOUT CHARGES!
-constant funding of guerilla groups that may help us make $ in small countries
-refusal to sign non proliferation treaty
-total undoing of UN and geneva convention work
-refusal to sign into international courts
-massive tax exemption for huge well-off companies that need no tax breaks
-refusal to court marshal higher officers, but total willingness to blame systematic torture on barely post-teens from the middle of america!!! this IS evil. if you do not see this as evil, you probably have horns and a bifrucated tounge.
-that whole thing where we like to fake terrorist attacks to use as an excuse to goto war for profit. (not saying it is the case in any specific instance, just that the US Govt. has documented their desire and ability to do so)
- The list goes on, dude.

man. people seem to think that if they ally themselves with the horrific brute that is the US govt, they can somehow gain some profits..

sadly, it is probably true.

I'm trying to figure out how/why you think the US is treating the terrorists barbarically. If you for one second believe the US is treating the terrorists the same way the terrorists are treating everyone else (who is not Islamic), then you're misguided. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but those are treated with harsh punishment when they're found out.

Do me a favor, give me ONE example of how the US is acting barbaric like the terrorists are. Just one. (And not an example of a single soldier murdering someone, then getting 100 years in prison for it, which is how we are dealing with those individuals.)

Show me where the US has dragged a body through the streets, cut off a head, hidden behind women and children, hidden in schools, dressed as women to gain an advantage in an attack, attacked women and children on purpose repeatedly, etc etc etc.

Do you honestly believe the US is as barbaric as these terrorists? Do you honestly think we're "stooping to their level" ?? Then show me, because aside from the baseless rhetoric I've heard from the bush-bashers, we're not.

Also, that guy bragged about what he had done before being water-boarded.

[Geof]

Rekd you are not reading carefully enough. I did not say the US was emulating on a one-for-one basis the behaviour of some of the extremists. I said that the logic being applied to explain or excuse activities such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation or other treatment that is not dignified or humane is that it is okay because the other guys are worse. You come close to saying that explicitly. If you set your standard of comparison low enough you can always claim the high ground. I simply believe that some of the documented and admitted activities of US, British and, yes, Canadian governments and armed forces personnel are not up to the standard that should prevail in a civilised society.

[Rekd]

Rekd you are not reading carefully enough. I did not say the US was emulating on a one-for-one basis the behaviour of some of the extremists. I said that the logic being applied to explain or excuse activities such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation or other treatment that is not dignified or humane is that it is okay because the other guys are worse. You come close to saying that explicitly. If you set your standard of comparison low enough you can always claim the high ground. I simply believe that some of the documented and admitted activities of US, British and, yes, Canadian governments and armed forces personnel are not up to the standard that should prevail in a civilised society.

I guess when you claimed

if you lower yourself to the level of your opponents you have lost the cause.

I figured you thought we had done that, when very clearly we have not. I agree we have not been saints, but we have done much more than most others to protect innocent life. Even to protect the 'not so innocent' lives of those we fight against.

Again, it's sad how America is seen as the problem here.

[turmite]

dude.. dont you know anything about our government?

we live under a consitantly mean natured set of 'rulers'... cases in point:

-Iran Contra
-the entire 2nd iraq war
-Vietnam
-Watergate type crud
-the first Bush election
-how long it took us to get into WW2
-HOLDING ANYONE WITHOUT CHARGES!
-constant funding of guerilla groups that may help us make $ in small countries
-refusal to sign non proliferation treaty
-total undoing of UN and geneva convention work
-refusal to sign into international courts
-massive tax exemption for huge well-off companies that need no tax breaks
-refusal to court marshal higher officers, but total willingness to blame systematic torture on barely post-teens from the middle of america!!! this IS evil. if you do not see this as evil, you probably have horns and a bifrucated tounge.
-that whole thing where we like to fake terrorist attacks to use as an excuse to goto war for profit. (not saying it is the case in any specific instance, just that the US Govt. has documented their desire and ability to do so)
- The list goes on, dude.

man. people seem to think that if they ally themselves with the horrific brute that is the US govt, they can somehow gain some profits..

sadly, it is probably true.

Robert I need some clarification on the highlighted paragraph? Please splain that to me!

Now for the sentence highlighted in red! I will give my life and blood before I will ever submit to international law!

Mike

[Rekd]

Robert I need some clarification on the highlighted paragraph? Please splain that to me!

Mike

He is obviously just ranting without anything substantial to back him up, nor any validity to the current problem.

I could go through his post line by line and debunk or defuse almost all of it as it does not relate to our current problem, but it's not worth the time. Any effort to explain any of those situations to him would simply be a waste of bandwidth, so I ignored it.

[One of Many]

Nope, that was not a rant. I recognize that as regurgitating NPR talking points in hopes it emulates superior knowledge of these issues as well informed. Disregarding the core problems of each and ignores the acts of evil that lays claim to intentions with much bigger plans for death and destruction in its path. So it goes. Tie the hands of government to protect and serve, then unleash the likes of the ACLU on anyone attempting to do the job once placed in a life or death situation as an occupational hazard.

On another note:

Strange how some can feel cheated when a company that pays millions of dollars in taxes gets a 10% relief of the burden. In their mind, that is a subsidizing big business. At the same time wishing their business(which isn't very profitable on its own) was subsidized by a government which they despise. They've had the best mind numbing training public funds can buy........after all, it is following the NPR business model. Not to mention passing on the Blame America first psychobabble of Nazi Propaganda Radio as a relevant source. NPR would be proud!

It makes one think their jealousy, envy and desires are emotions they expect to be satisfied by the government at all costs. Even if it means using emotion to enact their ideals over what is fair and poignantly beneficial to them while taking advantage of someone else. Hmmmm, isn't this the very same thing they deride the USA for? So many times, I see a common thread of their complaints they argue against, ends up being something similar they wish to do or control in a different breath.

It's the tale that wags the dog, ain't it? Or would that be TAIL? depends on who tells the story don't it?

DC

[Barney]

I love it here in the USA and I love my country, I think anyone who says anything against our country is a traitor. I don't believe in biting the hand that feeds me, I have been fed and raised in this country. I think the terrorists should be locked up in prison forever, never let out to see the light of day again, end of story. I am a machinist and I deal with the facts, I am not political, I feel a man needs to work for a living and spend time with his family, I do both of those things. I see a lot of people, especially arabs and other foreigners that want everything given to them, and they spend a lot of time stirring up things around the world and causing trouble. I cannot figure out why they don't just mind their own business and work and raise their families and stop blaming the UNITED STATES for their own stupidity and personal problems. I will tell you right now, that the UNITED STATES will put you between a rock and a hard place if you don't stop messing with us. I am a white american, my family came from Ireland, but I claim no citizenship there, just american citizenship, and thats it. I hate what is happening to our country, people putting some other name in front of america when they tell someone who they are, that is a wimpy way of living, I think the country is filled with a lot of wimps nowadays, someone needs to stand up with me and tell everyone here in the states the truth instead of lying all the time. America Love it Or Leave It !!!!!!!

[phomann]

I I think the terrorists should be locked up in prison forever, never let out to see the light of day again, end of story.

Barney,

Presumably you would would want to prove they are terrorists first? Nobody has said that terrorists shouldn't be punished. Lets just make sure they are guilty first.

Peter.

[fizzissist]

..Presumably you would would want to prove they are terrorists first? Nobody has said that terrorists shouldn't be punished. Lets just make sure they are guilty first.

So, with that premise, Bill Clinton illegally, and immorally, tried to bomb Osama Bin Laden without benefit of trial?

Bill Clinton also bombed a "milk factory" in the Sudan, without those people benefitting from a trial. Oh yeah, then there's the Chinese embassy in Baghdad he bombed. All those people didn't even get to choose an attorney.

Now, if we can just get Hirraly elected, we can change the world into realizing that we're good guys, and no one else will die....on either side.

I'm sorry, but I get real tired of the naivete. I don't like any more than some of you the action of taking people who are truly innocent and subjecting them to abusive interrogation techniques. There is the problem however that many of these people simply do not think the way we do.

Does anyone believe for 2 seconds that if they had the resources they wouldn't be HERE doing exactly that, and much worse, to US?? Look what they do to their own people on both a religious AND sectarian level.

....and Rekd, sorry to burst your bubble, but we're already out of oil. Don't you remember the oil crisis of the '70s where we learned we'd be out in 30yrs?? They couldn't possibly have been wrong, could they?

[Switcher]

Really, I could care less about this post, & think this cat. Should be Removed from www.cnczone.com.

I come here to talk (cnc) shop, Not listen to the same crap that is already on TV!


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